Redcafe Cricket Draft - Zen vs Donadol

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?


  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

Red-Indian

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
6,432
Location
Supposedly working in office
Zen’s XI
I'm not doing some huge strategy overview, but decided on 5 bowlers rather than going with Goodwin as my tail is long enough to make up for no truly fantastic batsmen in the draft pool, all three of my specialist pace bowlers are proven just as much away from home as they are at home, between Gough and Gillespie, I've got bowlers who are some of best travelling to the subcontinent. Franklin is more than adequate at giving them rests every now and then , and then Vettori as my specialist spinner, his 350+ wickets are testament to his consistency.

Sidhu - Specialist opener vs spin giving both Warne and Murali a tough time. Solid 42 average, which is slightly better if you ignore the fact he didn't really bother vs Zimbabwe.

Vaughan (C) - Far better as an opener than anywhere else, averaging 45. Also my captain, where his strength came through, exceptional leader for England bringing back the Ashes in 2005 that we all. Somewhat suspect as times, but capable of playing all styles, and had some great series overseas although not consistent as it should of been. Ignoring his final few injured plagued years and his stats look even more respectable.

Andrew Jones - Probably where I lose most votes to the unknown, but he's a very adequate middle order pick for where I took, averaging mid 40's again, keeping his best for probably Australia and having a fine tandem with his fellow top order batsmen of the time Crowe, leading NZ to some solid results for the time. Kinda suspect in the subcontinent, but that's nothing to be ashamed, plenty of greats are too.

Azhar Ali - Only guy I have whos still really playing and growing, but a 45 average is more than respectable for the third position especially considering he's never even played on home field(yet), has shown of weakness vs Englands pace bowling, but still posted some solid innings and hasn't really shown any true ultra weaknesses thus far.

Damien Martyn - From his return to the line up in the early 00's, he posted a near 49 average, which is over 50 against the elite nations(his worst averages being against Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and West Indies), and 40+ in every nation he's played, incredibly consistency, competent at the worst against every attack, not many made batting look so flawless when in full flow.

James Franklin - In the squad more for his bowling than his batting, but he's a solid batter, but his 33 average with the ball is why he's here more, which like all of my pace bowlers, improved even more away from home, averaging 25 for 34 wickets. Batting isn't too shabby either at 21 with a century in South Africa, but not too worried over that, since my tail is very long anyway.

Adam Gilchrist - Changed the face of cricket as much as anyone has really, not man choose specialist wicket keepers anymore because of him, a complete game changer capable of turning draws or in some cases a loss into wins with incredibly quick scores. Might of played in one of the greatest teams of all-time, but his importance to it is never under estimated. Scored a century against every nation and in every nation he played against(only Zimbabwe), and the best or at worst, second best(if you have Boucher) with the gloves of his generation. I personally think his batting career could of been a lot better had he been a opener for tests, and was mulling with that, but not going to take the risk based off of like one failed attempt at it.

Daniel Vettori - Playing him at eighth due to it being by far his best position(averages nearly 40 there), and where he could assist Gilchrist supremely in finishing off big scores or saving a collapse with a strong partnership. Has scored 50 in every nation, and 100's vs the attacks of India and Sri Lanka, dare I use it, but at his peak, he was averaging above 40 between 2005-09. One of the best spinners in the draft, even if his average sells him short, I'd have him slightly above Harbajhan Singh as well he doesn't have the luxury of India being his home unlike him.

Jason Gillespie - Might of played 3rd cog to McGrath and Warne, but was still very important to that attack, the opening tandum of him and McGrath was up there with the best opening pairs, it could end an innings before it even started. To go with Goughs brilliance in Sri Lanka and Pakistan, Gillespie was brilliant in India, arguably one of Australias best there. Once again, another very good lower order batsmen, even ignoring his 201 not out, his average is still 15.

Darren Gough - Englands best bowler in the draft, though I think Anderson is capable of taking over him in time, but Gough is proven career wide and for the most part carried a weaker attack than Anderson did, home and away, and most importantly on the sub continent, where he was one of the best, giving England a fighting chance in both Sri Lanka and Pakistan. Handy lower order batsmen too.

Angus Fraser - Great consistency and probably just behind Anderson in the England stakes of the modern era, solid average of 28(177 wickets), and a great travelling bowler, where he averages 25, despite never getting the chance to prove if he could do it on the subcontinent due to injuries. A proper 11th man though in the batting lineup, but my tail is more than long enough to make for that.

Strong batting line up, good fielding, and good bowling, happy with my team even if I do lose. Good luck Don.

Vs.

Donadol’s XI

Well, first and foremost, while picking my draft I decided to pick players who make my squad a balanced, fighting unit, because I do honestly believe a great Test team requires that balance, and compromising on a spot like opening or the middle order or the strike bowling option in lieu of the other can be quite detrimental.

I'm going with the following team.

Saeed Anwar - One of the most elegant strokeplayers of the 90s along with Lara and Waugh. Anwar was capable of single-handedly changing the nature of a game. With no evident weaknesses against the pacers or the spinners and with his wide range of shots, Anwar was, for a time regarded as one of the best in the business along with Sachin. An average of 50 while opening in Tests (it's 45 overall after his failed experiments in the middle order) make him one of the best openers for Pakistan in the last 20 odd years.

Michael Atherton - To complement Anwar's free stroke-playing abaility, I have the dour, dogged Atherton, England's captain at 25, scorer of 16 centuries. His average of 41 batting at number 2 doesn't do him complete justice, but he made his name as the best batsman of the 90s for England. A determined 98 against a fuming Donald and co remains one of the most memorable innings of late. Excellent slip fielder.

Kumar Sangakkara - Possibly the greatest wicket-keeper batsman, and among the greatest number 3's of all time, with 30 centuries (8 double centuries), an average of 56 overall (almost 70 at number 3), centuries against every test playing nation, and to top that, each of his highest scores against those nations is 150+. When he gets past that piddly 100 mark, Sangakkara makes it count. And all this at a relatively pacy average SR of 54. An excellent captain and strategist to boot. 168 catches, 20 stumpings.

Mark Waugh - I love my team, and I love it purely because the sight of Mark Waugh walking nonchalantly out to bat, collars up and fluttering was possibly one of the greatest sights while growing up watching cricket. A peerless stroke player, he could make batting looking absolutely effortless. With no apparent weaknesses against spin or pace, he was one of the triumvirate which battled it out for the 'Best Current Batsman' title (largely in my head) along with Anwar and Sachin.

A vital part of the great Aussie teams under Taylor and Waugh, Mark enjoyed a healthy average of 50 (career average of 42), with 6 centuries, against an England team almost always comprising of Fraser and Gough. Waugh was also a handy offspinner(59 wickets, best bowling of 5/40), and amongst the best slip fielders ever, with 181 catches.

Kevin Pietersen - One of the most dangerous batsmen in the modern game, Pietersen is yet another player in my team capable of turning a game on its head. With 20 centuries in 87 matches, and a strike rate of 63, Pietersen can give middle order that impetus when he walks in at 300 or 400-3. A safe fielder, and less than decent bowler. His Test average in nearly 50 and looks set to improve as he finally looks to be coming into his own as a premier batsman of our time.

Carl Hooper - Coming in at number 6, Hooper is another of my favourites from the 90s and a splendid option to have in the middle order. A calm, level headed player capable of ripping the best spinners apart when in the mood, Hooper has a highest score of 233 and 13 centuries in Test cricket, but probably did not do full justice to his batting as his career average of 36 odd suggests. Towards to latter stages of his career, however, his average takes a massive jump to 50.

In 102 matches, Hooper, with his languid, measured action, took 114 wickets, with 4 five-fors. He, along with Waugh would provide my spinning options. Another excellent slipper with 115 catches.

Hansie Cronje - At 7, he is a position below where he or I would like him to be, but Hansie, as a captain and cricketer showed more than enough drive and ruthlessness to care more about the good of the team, until that fateful day in 1999-00. A number 7 with an average of 36, 6 centuries, and a bowling average of 29. Captain at 24, Hansie led SA to 27 victories and 11 losses in 53 tests, an outstanding record. Fantastic player of spin and pace and excellent fielder.

Lance Klusener - To be honest, I hadn't even factored in Lance's outstanding 174 (after coming in at 153/5) against England when I picked him. I remember watching that match in Kolkata (?) when he took an 8 for on debut with his direct, attacking, two-length bowling. Injuries in later years meant that he added subtle variations and guile, which got him 80 wickets in 49 matches. A gutsy, committed cricketer, he was one of the most feared hitters in international cricket for a time. A batting average of 32 in Test cricket, with 4 centuries.

Mohammed Amir - I won't even pretend this is anything other than a punt, and a consequence of the fact that this left handed pacer got me genuinely excited about cricket after a long period of dissonance. You get a gut feel about some players when you first see them. Notwithstanding the media attention on them, there are some who are genuinely worth that scrutiny. I fully believed this kid was one of them. Fantastic control on swing and pace, and that innate ability only the great bowlers have of making the ball follow their will. Only 14 tests, with 3 five fors and 2 four wicket hauls in an innings. He will provide the balance to my pace attack. A handy bat lower down the order.

Craig McDermott - He virtually carried the Aussie bowling for a time in the late 80s and early 90s. For a bowler plagued with injuries, it could be expected that he would have a loss in form or a drop in statistics, as it were. However, McDermott boasts quite outstanding figures for his time, 30 wickets in his first 6 Tests, 291 overall in 71 tests, with 14 five fors and 2 ten wicket hauls. Classic outswing bowler with immense experience, he's capable of taking on a larger burden of the bowling to complement Donald's attacking bursts.

Allan Donald - Few sights were as exciting in the 90s than of Allan Donald steaming in, sunscreen smeared like warpaint, cheeks puffed out, stretching every muscle in his body to hurl it with hostile, fearsome pace at a quaking batsman.With 330 wickets in 72 matches, he boasts the 5th best strike rate, 47.0, in the modern era (minimum 20 Tests), has a stupendous average of 22, and is capable of doing this...




Overall, I've tried to keep players who have little problem in opening up and upping the rate in Test matches because a score of 650 plus in less than 2 days is far more effective than the same score over 2.5 days. In Donald, McDermott, Amir, Klusener, Cronje, Hooper and Waugh, I have bowlers capable of picking up 20 wickets in a match supported ably by outstanding fielders and slippers. My captain will be Hansie Cronje.

All the best Zen.
 
I don't know who Donadols captain is.....definitely has 3 very strong contenders for it. But his keeper is clearly Kumar, and his stats fly down when he has the gloves, 40 average in nearly 50 games(compared to a nearly 70avg without them in 63 games so no fluke, which is why I reckon he should of picked a proper keeper instead, though for obvious strategy reasons kept that a bit quiet), and that includes more than enough games at his peak to know that it does hurt his batting. So not quite the greatest wicket keeper batsmen, he's behind Gilchrist in all the key facts for it by quite a bit, Flower, and hell even Prior stats wise.

Don't really like turning these things into a slanging match, I think he's been mostly fair about his team other than that, we'll see what comes up and if I'm even around to argue further, hopefully I will be. He also got two players I really wanted in KP(favouritism reasons) and McDermott ><
 
The thing is - even with Sangakarra dropping to 40 (as keeper-batsman), thats still a very good middle order - Waugh, Sanga, Pieterson and Hooper compared to your Jones, Azhar Alil, Martyn and Franklin.

You're heavily dependant on Martyn and Gilchrist there. His talent is much more spread out.

I'll do a more detailed head-to-head when I have the the time/

Just so you know, I've PM'd both Brwned and KM to add a poll. Hopefully one of them pops in.
 
I can't bring myself to vote for a team with Cronje and Aamir in it..
 
Not gonna argue his middle order being better, thats fair and the risk I took with throwing Franklin at 6, but I had to have Gilchrist and Vettori in their favoured positions especially when they have a tail coming in at 9 and 10 who can hang around with them, no 50's or above out of his bottom three compared 5 for mine.

Though I guess I may have got away with using Goodwin in this match considering he only went with 4 specialist bowlers too though a better part-time setup in Hooper and Waugh ><
 
Thanks to whichever mod helped with the poll.

My evaluation.

The two teams match pretty closely in opening though Donadol might have the slight endge. Vaughan's probably a better bat than Atherton but Anwar's clearly better than Sidhu.

Middle order - Donadol's clearly better. Sanga, Waugh and Pietersen is in a different class to Jone, Azhar Ali and Martyn (good though Martyn is).

Lower order - Gilchrist & Vettori give Zen the superiority. Hooper, Cronje and Klusener are pretty good but Gilly's up there.

Quicks - Zen has the variety but Donadol has the star in Donald. McDermott is good support even if Amir and Klusener are bit meh. Gillespie, Gough, Fraser and Franklin is a very varied and interesting attack.

Spin - Vettori is class. Hooper and Waugh will try but they're fillers rather than full bowlers.

Overall, I think i'll give Donadol the slight edge. His middle order can really pile up the runs and his bowling can get the wickets. Zen has to hope a couple of things go his way.
 
The teams match up quite well but Donadol wins it for me with his superior middle order.
 



Can I please post this? It was never viewed. I've been dying to see if people still remembered this. To raise your Donald video with a thinking fast bowler.


I know its a bit of an off topic, but seriously was one of those things that stuck with me.
 
I've detailed what i believe are the strengths of my team in the opening post, however as a comparison, I feel Zen's top 5 could have been chosen better. I can think of better options than Andrew Jones or Azhar Ali that could have been picked at the stage of the draw they were picked in. These seem to be purely average dependent choices, and as a result takes the air out of his middle order's balloon which is left with a Martyn (good batsman and all, but suffering from a bout of revisionism when compared to the relatively unheard of Ali and Jones) shaped end. His top five batsmen have played an average of approx 50 tests, while mine have played a stupendous 100 on average. I'm not going to even get into a runs or qualitative argument.

Gilchrist and Vettori, thinking objectively, are probably the two stars for Zen's team, which suffers majorly when either of them are taken out of the equation. I tried to desist from the star player preference wherever possible (Donald might be the only rexception), to build a more balanced unit which wouldn't suffer massively due to a poor performance from a star. Hooper, Cronje and Klusener indivdually provide the ability to trump those two, IMO.

I do believe that Vettori as the main spin option is one area where he has the edge on me, although Hooper or Waugh aren't mere pie chuckers, and the variety they provide to my attack is the strategy my captain will use when making bowling changes.
 
Can I please post this? It was never viewed. I've been dying to see if people still remembered this. To raise your Donald video with a thinking fast bowler.


I know its a bit of an off topic, but seriously was one of those things that stuck with me.


I remember this quite vividly actually. I was in a the middle of a large sermon about how Dravid would go on to become one of the game's greats to a faithless bunch who were unconvinced he was anything more than a blocker...and then this happened.

Akhtar's dismissal of Tendulkar, and Dravid's defiant straight six off Donald, among others stick out...
 
tbh, I'd like to know who you think were better picks.....none of the ones actually chosen were. Though you seem to put tons of emphasis on more games played, so maybe Hussain at a huge push, there are bigger names, but not really better players in tests, even if you take a similar small sample size to that of Jones and Ali. There are certainly places I could of picked differently, but eh, such is a draft, everyone could of.

It's not an overly weak middle order really just unknown which I knew would be a risk, star power wins out i guess, there are tons of sub 40 and even weaker when travelling batsmen picked, all mine are mid 40's and up and vaguely consistent both away and vs good attacks too and in Martyns case anyway not juiced up by crushing bad teams(this is not me saying yours is btw, can't be bothered looking that up as theres no set stadium anyway). In Martyn, I think I've got the best middle order player on show really, it would clearly be Kumar, but not when he has the pressure of the gloves on top. Pietersen drops a couple points when looking at the elite opposition only, whereas Martyns goes up a point or so, and even better away.

Pretty weird saying those three trump Gilchrist and Vettori....especially since both of them have both done tests where they've been captain on top of their already dual roles, and Vettori was barely a batter until after a few years, he's a near 44 batter at 8 since 2003.
 
I remember this quite vividly actually. I was in a the middle of a large sermon about how Dravid would go on to become one of the game's greats to a faithless bunch who were unconvinced he was anything more than a blocker...and then this happened.

Akhtar's dismissal of Tendulkar, and Dravid's defiant straight six off Donald, among others stick out...

Your prediction turned out okay. :D And honestly, I can't think of a single batsman who wouldn't have fallen for that.

I think this is a lot closer than voting suggests. I really am discounting Aamer since he's too young in his test careers. Alot of bowlers have had a shock impact and then fallen away. Zen's middle order seems weak but Gilly and Vettori are a real thorn. And I really rated Vaughn at his peak.

Its a bit confusing but I'm myself leaning towards Donadol. Unless Zen can tell me how he'll go through the oppositions top 5. He has steady bowlers and Vettori who can be kept out when batting with patience. I fear that if Gough fails to get the ball moving, Donadol will end up scoring 500+
 
Thats the problem I saw as well. You can't really stop one of that middle order from making a big score and there's more than enough support around them to get to 500. As I said earlier, Zen needs one of his bowlers to have a really good day.
 
Voting Donado.. though I did not really want to with Cronje in his team. Was one of my fav cricketers before his shenanigans surfaces. All in all, I would have voted for either of KM's or mightbright's over these two. Luck of the draw.eh.
 
Come on people put your votes in. Don't expect votes in your matchup if you don't vote in others.

Its pity after the effort we've put in for matches to be decided on 6-7 votes.
 
Going with Donadol. The difference in class of middle order was staggering.
 
Voting Donadol. His middle order is seriously strong and he's got 2 quicks in Donald and McDermot that were their sides main strike bowlers in their day. Donadol's main weakness is missing a proper spin option though having both Hooper and Waugh sort of makes up for that.
 
I'm following the lead from some Olympic events and not e-exulting too much.

I pick Vettori.