Reasons to be optimistic?

SparkedIntoLife

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I posted before about vibes and was largely told ‘they don’t matter, we need to clear house and start again’. I have sympathy with that argument as for too long we’ve plastered over major cracks. However, increasingly it feels like there’s less and less to be excited about.

There’s been lots of talk about United DNA and in the past that’s been wrongly linked to systems. For me, 3421 isn’t outside of United DNA. The real essence of this club, for me, is playing academy players and having a positive attitude in the face of adversity.

The academy… many of us have gotten excited about the U18s. Huge credit to them for their results over the last couple of years. However, what we really need are players to come into the first team. City and Chelsea players still dominate the under age England teams.

Garnacho and Mainoo don’t seem to fit Amorim’s style. I like them both but imagine neither will be here in 2 years. PSR for the win, right? :(

Only Kukonki seems even vaguely near to the first team setup (I’m not including Collyer who made his debut under ETH). Press reports suggest Amorim and Wilcox believe there’s big deficiencies in the academy.

Nick Cox seems a good guy with a high EQ but his best graduates prior to United were Calvert-Lewin at Sheffield United and Sancho at Watford. Two players who don’t exactly scream ‘elite’ when it comes to mentality and physical intensity.

Rightfully, we’ve been famed as a rare club who gives smaller youngsters time to grow into their frame and doesn’t just release them because they are physically undeveloped. But have we gone too far by neglecting athleticism? Take Kobbie. Great technically but not too dynamic.

We don’t have lots to spend. Good. I’d rather we have some time of resetting the notion that United are pushovers in the market. If we go this January without overspending. fine. Dorgu at 35m doesn’t seem right based on all I’ve heard from regular watchers. He’s physically more advanced than Mantato but the latter looks similar technically.

Amorim came in with a fantastic record of promoting youth at Sporting but hasn’t given anyone their debut so far, despite having ‘the worst United side ever’.

Is he protecting the youth (from what?), is he not quite the youth guy we thought he was or are the players simply not ready or even good enough? It’s really hard to get a steer on this and I’m surprised the vulture journalists haven’t pressed him harder on this question (they’re too busy asking about Rashford every press conference, the idiots).

Vivell doesn’t seem anything special. Travis Binnion basically said Sekou Kone is miles off it. Nene Dorgeles, supposedly a Vivell recommendation, was lambasted as shite by his own fans who said that the club would laugh their way to the bank if United signed him. I’m really not convinced we’re any nearer to improving our recruitment.

Wilcox… it’s really hard to know what he’s doing. I’ll reserve judgement but the ETH fiasco is hard to shake.

I’m genuinely very positive about Amorim, believe it or not, but the narrative is quickly becoming ‘Ruben to save the day’ which is dangerous, in my opinion.

I guess we’re all fed up and feeling discouraged. I’m sure patience is required. My question is - what’s giving you cause for optimism about United right now?
 
Genuinely, the fact that we don't seem to have the money to make the ludicrously large signings we have in the past (Pogba, Antony, Sancho, etc.) makes me more optimistic.

Getting those sort of signings wrong does a huge amount of damage to team building. And in the past we've too often tended to try to fix problems by bringing in a particular shiny toy to solve things.

I mentioned it in another thread, but we've spent €60m+ on 12 players, where a team like Liverpool have only done so 5 times. Aside from their hit rate being better, we shouldn't have needed to dip into that price range as often as we have if our recruitment was on point.

What I want to see for the next few years is us almost never signing a player older than 26 and rarely spending more than €50m on any one player. Our financial limitations will hopefully push us towards doing that.
 
Previously to INEOS things were bad (with some enjoyable moments) but because the Glazers were so hands off it meant that the soul of the club remained intact, and we had that to cling onto and be proud of.

It feels like a lot of the stuff INEOS are doing is stripping the soul out of the club, which is horrible but could be accepted to a degree if things were improving on the pitch. In fact, things are getting worse.

It also feels like we've almost explored every type of option manager wise now and things aren't getting better. This is going to make us less appealing to future promising managers, as well as players. The appeal of the club (which we could always fall back on) is lessening.

Then you have the financial situation, we had a window of 10 years where we could (and did) spend like crazy but we completely fecked it, now the rules have changed and we can't even spend our way out of the problem without dispensing with promising academy players.

Then there was the notion of 'maybe a proper footballing hierarchy would improve things' - we have that (supposedly) now and they still seem like they don't have a clue and are creating more problems if anything (signing more dross, flip flopping on footballing direction) They also report into a trigger happy boss who seems to have no regard for the soul of the club, and is solely focused on the bottom line.

It's grim. The one thing I'm positive about is the hard line we're taking on players trying to take the piss, and getting our wage structure under control. Maybe this will pay off eventually.

I rate Amorim but sadly I think he is going to end up as just more collateral damage.
 
Enthused we are not making marquee signings, but also concerned emulating the likes of Brighton and Bournemouth is now our level.

Threat of state-ownership hasn't gone away, either, yet the Ineos/Glazer inspires only meh in me.

Exciting times.
 
I agree re less money being a good thing. It forces us to actually develop players and plan longer term, I don't think with the Glazers we ever looked beyond each summer transfer window.
The fact is we still generate insane amounts of money, it's just PSR means you can't just piss it up the wall (as we have done previously), the process of really stripping the big wages and resetting the squad will take a couple of seasons but we are well on the way. I also think the knock on effect which is another positive is players/agents see us less as a pure money making move - gone are the days, hopefully, where you get old expensive player's agents making Woodward go weak at the knees when they show some interest in a move after touting their client across about 10 clubs first without interest.

United fans got duped almost every couple of years with the 'rebuild' buzzword and it was always a complete fabrication - this time, there is actually a lot going on behind the scenes, it is the first rebuild we have attempted.

Also, though an unpopular opinion right now, I think many of players are good and there's a lot of upside in this team.
 
We signed a really exciting left back, only we had to leave him in a different continent for a bit. So in the summer, it could be exciting to see what a Man United team with someone left-sided in it looks like. It'll have been about 30 months by then.
 
Rock bottom cant be that far off. Surely. If we going to bounce we need something to bounce off. This time next year we will be millionaires top 10
 
I maintain we've got the makings of a strong side and there's quality and ability in the squad, its just not working now, for whatever reason.

Our defence on paper and based on history should be fine:

Yoro - highly rated/"wonderkid"
De Ligt - Bayern fans started a petition to keep him at the club and has played for some of the best sides in Europe
Licha - first season was immense, and looked back to his best vs the scousers, but has dropped off this season
Maguire - has played very well this season

In midfield Ugarte really does look the part and whilst i dont think he's had a good season up to now, Mainoo this time last season was hailed as the saviour and subsequently thrust into the England side

No 10's - Amad has been a revelation and Bruno (for me) is as good a no 10 as there is about.

We've obviously got problems at WB, although Mazraoui looked fantastic when he first came in so im hopeful that can be recovered, but LWB is clearly a problem and we've no striker, just 2 lads who should be coming off the bench to ease them in. Onana is the other one not mentioned, just cant make my mind up there but thats for another day/thread.

I'm frustrated with Amorim, we're worse now than we were in the previous regime it feels like but if its a case of going through the pain to reset then fine, but I'm adamant we should be up there with a couple of buys in the right areas and we dont need a whole new starting 11 to compete for top 4.
 
We've got some very good players, we're a few key players and a pre-season away from being much much better than we are.
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
I've got four days in Bucharest next week with a load of my mates.

European aways are still the best.
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Definitely, I had a great time in Bruges where we drew 1-1. That’s the good thing about the new format, there are several different away days possible.
 
I'm optimistic about Amorim.
But he needs backing. Doesn't need millions spent, but players in that fit the system.

And someone did mention earlier but the defence has some good solid individuals, just need some time together to get better
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ester-united-academy-ineos-ratcliffe-30603031
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Interesting read that. I have been wondering about the quality of players coming through, relative to City & Chelsea. Few wrong’uns in recent years too, which made this quote interesting

‘A source recently told the MEN there is still no better place for a young player to be because academy staff genuinely care about moulding good, hard working and polite people.

The core values in the academy remain and more special players are bound to emerge.’

You’d think the academy would be one area Wilcox could definitely add value.
 
McFred said:
Interesting read that. I have been wondering about the quality of players coming through, relative to City & Chelsea. Few wrong’uns in recent years too, which made this quote interesting

‘A source recently told the MEN there is still no better place for a young player to be because academy staff genuinely care about moulding good, hard working and polite people.

The core values in the academy remain and more special players are bound to emerge.’

You’d think the academy would be one area Wilcox could definitely add value.
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My cousin was in the academy years ago and he always said, they prepared him for life rather than for a career solely as a professional footballer. When he was let go at 16 and he told them he wanted to go into coaching. They then put him in touch with local colleges, provided a tutor to help pass his GCSE's and even offered him a paid internship working for the Foundation. He is now thriving as a self employed coach and still plays a bit of Non League. United helped give him a platform for a successful career.

I now work in further education (16-18) myself and the club are still well regarded in that area. We see one or two heartbroken lads every year that have been let go from United but they are always better for the experience after they have got over the initial setback.

I think people forget occasionally that academies are for nurturing young lads into a career and not just talent farms to help clubs pass FFP regulations.

I really hope Ratcliffe keeps this alive.
 
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KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
My cousin was in the academy years ago and he always said, they prepared him for life rather than for a career solely as a professional footballer. When he was let go at 16 and he told them he wanted to go into coaching. They then put him in touch with local colleges, provided a tutor to help pass his GCSE's and even offered him a paid internship working for the Foundation. He is now thriving as a self employed coach and still plays a bit of Non League. United helped give him a platform for a successful career.

I now work in further education (16-18) myself and the club are still well regarded in that area. We see one or two heartbroken lads every year that have been let go from United but they are always better for the experience after they have got over the initial setback.

I think people forget occasionally that academies are for nurturing young lads into a career and not just talent farms to help clubs pass FFP regulations.

I really hope Ratcliffe keeps this alive.
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And that's how it should be, I think United have always been fairly good at this and they're not alone

Clubs have a duty of care to young players, the reality is that most of them won't make it and they need life skills and education that might have been neglected in the pursuit of a football careerm that never comes to passm to have a chance of a good life
 
The youth team. I have faith that we'd be able to replace anybody from Garnacho to Rashford to Hojlund/Zirkzee etc. with our current crop of youngsters. Possibly in the next year or so too.

Thats about it.
 
Snow said:
Read the entire thing and not one word about either of Wilcox or Amorim thinking there were deficiencies in the academy.
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"There has been a suggestion of tensions between Wilcox and some staff, and they are believed to be under added pressure to produce results.

Coaches at different age groups are feeling more scrutiny to win games, whereas in the past, the focus would solely be on youth development and not particularly the outcome of a fixture.

Some highly skilled staff were lost in Sir Jim Ratcliffe's club-wide restructure and there have been eyebrows raised at some academy hires, including the appointment of Simon Wiles from Salford City, who left his position as a first-team coach to become the Under-14 coach.

It initially appeared that Ineos' changes to the academy would be minimal, but it has become clear that this is not the case and it's been suggested not everything is as rosy as it may seem."
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Why would there be tensions if Wilcox was happy with the academy's performance? My limited sense of Wilcox and Cox from numerous interviews is that the former is exacting and cerebral whereas the latter is quite tender and gentle. TBH, while I think development always has to come ahead of results, maybe Wilcox is pushing this because we've been churning out too many talented but unphysical players. Maybe we're too soft. McTominay was tough (a Mourinho youth graduate, remember) but the likes of Greenwood, Mainoo, Rashford, Gore and Garner have some physical limitations.

As for Amorim, he has said repeatedly in press conferences that the academy needs to improve. That's great in terms of having the highest standards. But he's currently not turning to the academy in a time of crisis and I think actions speak volumes.

I think initial speculation from some United YouTubers and writers that Amorim would instantly promote the likes of Mantato, Amass, Obi and Jack Fletcher were optimistic but I'd guess most of us felt at least one player would have had their debut by now.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Why would there be tensions if Wilcox was happy with the academy's performance? My limited sense of Wilcox and Cox from numerous interviews is that the former is exacting and cerebral whereas the latter is quite tender and gentle. TBH, while I think development always has to come ahead of results, maybe Wilcox is pushing this because we've been churning out too many talented but unphysical players. Maybe we're too soft. McTominay was tough (a Mourinho youth graduate, remember) but the likes of Greenwood, Mainoo, Rashford, Gore and Garner have some physical limitations.

As for Amorim, he has said repeatedly in press conferences that the academy needs to improve. That's great in terms of having the highest standards. But he's currently not turning to the academy in a time of crisis and I think actions speak volumes.

I think initial speculation from some United YouTubers and writers that Amorim would instantly promote the likes of Mantato, Amass, Obi and Jack Fletcher were optimistic but I'd guess most of us felt at least one player would have had their debut by now.
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Nothing to do with quality of players in the academy.
and they are believed to be under added pressure to produce results.
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The tension is said to stem from producing results instead of focusing on producing the talent.

As for Amorim, he has said repeatedly in press conferences that the academy needs to improve
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Quotes?
 
I’m optimistic about the formation if/when we get a settled team performing well. I think there are more positions to see players thrive in an attacking sense.

2 wide ball playing defenders
2 direct rapid wingbacks breaking into space
2 10s with intricate play
An 8 dictating the game?
 
The biggest cause for optimism for me is the very clear strategy of completing freezing out the two players on insane wages to try and force them out of the club.

I’m unsure whether it will work or not. But I’m glad the club are at least trying to do it.

I’d take a few more years of mediocrity if it sees us finally get the wages back under control.

And I don’t get the impression that Amorim feels he needs on paper world beaters to make his system work.

So I’m (probably over optimistically) hoping we finally pick up a few bargain players who might seem underwhelming, but perfectly fit the profiles required for the system. God knows we need to because there are a lot of positions we don’t have the right fit for.
 
Snow said:
Nothing to do with quality of players in the academy.

The tension is said to stem from producing results instead of focusing on producing the talent.


Quotes?
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A simple Google search will find this for you.

Again, why is Amorim playing the likes of Malacia over Amass? Why is he leaving unused spaces on the bench or two keepers? He obviously doesn’t think a youngster is ready or good enough.

I love our academy but it’s easy to overrate it, thinking we perpetually have another class of 92 waiting to emerge.
 
MaxZorin said:
Enthused we are not making marquee signings, but also concerned emulating the likes of Brighton and Bournemouth is now our level.

Threat of state-ownership hasn't gone away, either, yet the Ineos/Glazer inspires only meh in me.

Exciting times.
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What people also don’t comprehend is the very real prospect that in the future Ineos will very likely be sold to the Middle East once Ratcliffe pops his clogs.
 
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