Problem lies with the midfield???

[TOD]

Anybody agree with me on this? Some say our main concern right now is in the striker department, but isn't scoring goals the job of 11 men? Its easy to push the blame to strikers but others got to do their part too. The midfield is not working hard enough. For every football game, the midfield is the one department which controls/dominate the game, very often your midfielders does well, you win the match. Midfielders are the most imp. members in the teams, they had to help out the defence and also the attack. Midfield also determines if we outplay or get outplayed by the opposition. All the physical battles are in the midfield. Our midfield right now is horrible, giving needless balls away, sometimes virtually inexistance, no bite, no movement. That's probably why the strikers are lack of decent services. Our midfielders also rarely help out in defence, thats explain we conceeded 1 goal/game (A poor stats given that so much cash invested on it). Apart from Scholes, all the other midfielders are lackluster. Amazing that on paper, its 1 of the best in the world? No prize for guessing the worse of them all!!!

 

[Livvie]

I've always maintained that our goals were generally down to the contribution of the midfield. So I'd go along with holding them responsible - in the main - for the lack of goals now.

And is it a coincidence that in Euroope Seba plays well and we score goals. In England he doesn't and we don't.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>I've always maintained that our goals were generally down to the contribution of the midfield. So I'd go along with holding them responsible - in the main - for the lack of goals now.

And is it a coincidence that in Euroope Seba plays well and we score goals. In England he doesn't and we don't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

of coz it's the midfield. I agree with you both.

Although i see it as a tactical problem rather than the mindset of the players. We have quality players who will pull us out of situation. I think they're all feeling down because they're not playing their favourite game.

In EPL, our players have to accomodate Seba - pushing inside, not taking the balls down the wings, letting seba hold the balls. I think all these are affecting our performances.

in ECL, Seba's abilities become priceless because it's the european game where ball control becomes essential. Every player gets confident knowing they have seba's experience there. Plus, we've always done well in ECL, and Seba has always done well in european games. So it compliments each other.

So yes Livvie, i agree with you that it's because of Seba we're doing well in Europe. and it's also Seba who's causing us misery in EPL.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

also Seba who's causing us misery in EPL.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i suppose we've been wining matches with ease without him in PL?

everyone needs a scapegoat.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

i suppose we've been wining matches with ease without him in PL?

everyone needs a scapegoat. </strong><hr></blockquote>


I don't know about scapegoat. But it is true that he plays better in Europe than in England. And it needs addressing.

I don't blame him for not being able to turn it on here - if it isn't his style of play, there's not much we can do about it.

But how long do we persevere and lose points. We need workhorses out there, not racehorses.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


I don't know about scapegoat. But it is true that he plays better in Europe than in England. And it needs addressing.

I don't blame him for not being able to turn it on here - if it isn't his style of play, there's not much we can do about it.

But how long do we persevere and lose points. We need workhorses out there, not racehorses.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree with that.

but to say Veron is the reason why we aren't performing in the league is pathetic, quite frankly.

last year everyone blamed Blanc for our bad run before december...but he was sheer class last season..and won the fans over..

every story needs a scapegoat

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>to say Veron is the reason why we aren't peforming in the league its pathetic, quite frankly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I totally agree.

 

[kkcbl]

It's the midfield that's not providing the passes, but it's not down to Veron alone - the others, bar Scholes recently, are just not performing.

 

[Kinky Melinky]

Originally posted by TOD:
<strong>Apart from Scholes, all the other midfielders are lackluster. Amazing that on paper, its 1 of the best in the world? No prize for guessing the worse of them all!!! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Beckham ?

That was pretty easy based on his performances over the past year.

 

[sebaveron]

what about when seba hasn't played in the premiership we havn't been too spectacular then as well...

to be honest nobody at the moment is performing to the best of the potential.
veron isnt
becks isnt
giggs isnt

only Scholesy is playing quite good and thats in his "advanced" position. to be fair we must play veron right now as we dont have any other cm left...

what are we gonna do against man shitty without becks? who is good enough to play on the right wing..

 

[mathiaslg]

Veron has underperformed in the center of the midfield. However, that has to do with two things IMO. Firstly, he obviously hasn't played as well as he could. Secondly, he also has Beckham and Giggs charging into the center of the pitch to fulfill their bloody dreams of CM glory. Tell them to get the hell out wide. That will help everyone in the United midfield.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

but to say Veron is the reason why we aren't performing in the league is pathetic, quite frankly.

last year everyone blamed Blanc for our bad run before december...but he was sheer class last season..and won the fans over..

every story needs a scapegoat </strong><hr></blockquote>

i am not blaming seba for all this. i have been blaming SAF if you hadn't noticed already by this time. What i meant was that because Veron is here tactics are changed and players fall short of their full abilities. It was the introduction of him that caused this fall - not Veron himself.

And even if we take him out now, it's going to take a while to go back to normal. Rome was not built in one day... was it? but atleast it was built.. at the rate we're going, i think we're looking more like the last days of the Roman community in EPL..

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>Veron has underperformed in the center of the midfield. However, that has to do with two things IMO. Firstly, he obviously hasn't played as well as he could. Secondly, he also has Beckham and Giggs charging into the center of the pitch to fulfill their bloody dreams of CM glory. Tell them to get the hell out wide. That will help everyone in the United midfield.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It is the manager who is in charge of the tactic, not the players themselves. So it is Fergie's idea (or at least he approves) Becks and Giggs to move into the centre in cases, and it's not difficult to understand why:
1. Giggs is no longer the same player who can always take on several opponents by himself on the left. He need to change his game in order to extend his career.
2. Beckham is also not a typical RW. Indeed he is a playmaker type. The more he get the ball the more his vision and passing potential can be utilized.

The biggest fault from the beginning is, what I've said a lot time, the purchase of Veron. Simply speaking, over 95% of Veron's function can also be achieved by a fit Beckham or Scholes. Even in Veron's better games in United I still can't see what's the "extra" thing, the "spark" he can bring to us while other players can't.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>And even if we take him out now, it's going to take a while to go back to normal. Rome was not built in one day... was it? but atleast it was built.. at the rate we're going, i think we're looking more like the last days of the Roman community in EPL..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree. I can see we will definitely take Veron out in EPL eventually. (Even WeasteDevil didn't list Veron in his starting lineup in .<a href="http://www.redcafe.info/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009168" target="_blank">Another thread</a>, and we all know he is a die hard Veron fan) The earlier we do that, the earlier the rebuilt can start

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

It is the manager who is in charge of the tactic, not the players themselves. So it is Fergie's idea (or at least he approves) Becks and Giggs to move into the centre in cases, and it's not difficult to understand why:
1. Giggs is no longer the same player who can always take on several opponents by himself on the left. He need to change his game in order to extend his career.
2. Beckham is also not a typical RW. Indeed he is a playmaker type. The more he get the ball the more his vision and passing potential can be utilized.

The biggest fault from the beginning is, what I've said a lot time, the purchase of Veron. Simply speaking, over 95% of Veron's function can also be achieved by a fit Beckham or Scholes. Even in Veron's better games in United I still can't see what's the "extra" thing, the "spark" he can bring to us while other players can't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, if it is Fergie's desire to have Beckham and Giggs move into the middle, he should have been looking for a winger instead of another CM. United are lacking the width they have had in previous seasons. Lets face it, Arsenal have really replaced United as the model attacking team in the Premiership.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Well, if it is Fergie's desire to have Beckham and Giggs move into the middle, he should have been looking for a winger instead of another CM. United are lacking the width they have had in previous seasons. Lets face it, Arsenal have really replaced United as the model attacking team in the Premiership.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree. Arsenal utilize the width more and their attack is much quicker. They pass the ball quickly in small space and most of them also has great pace themselves. While on the other hand we lack quality natural winger, and most of our attacking players are also painfully slow. That's why so many people agree that a fast and skillful forward and/or winger should be our next target.

 

[Ever hopefull]

Okay Seba hasn't been at his best in the Premiership but to blame him for all our Midfield problems is crap. At slmost no point this season have we had Keane, Scholes and Butt available and fully fit at the same time. Becks isn't at his best, neither is giggsy but its not suprising considering the amount of changes that have happened around them.
Changes in personnel and formation.
Our Midfield hasn't been at their best but once they are fit then we can properly assess them and try to figure out where the problems may lie

 

[OldRed1]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>Veron has underperformed in the center of the midfield. However, that has to do with two things IMO. Firstly, he obviously hasn't played as well as he could. Secondly, he also has Beckham and Giggs charging into the center of the pitch to fulfill their bloody dreams of CM glory. Tell them to get the hell out wide. That will help everyone in the United midfield.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Totally agree. We have had no width most of the season and when we have we've scored goals. I can only put this down to coaching though. surely Giggs and Beckham aren't playing down the centre just because they want to. I think SAF is trying to emulate Houllier to be honest.

 

[morpheus]

I'm not sure you can blame Veron. (Liverpool fan sticks up for Veron shock!). He hasn't really done the business but I remember being on here two seasons ago when people were moaning about the Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beakham midfield being 'stale' and that teams in Europe had worked it out. Clamp down on Giggs and Beckham and you beat United was the complaint, and it still is. Forget Veron, forget Butt's world cup. Stop playing Fortune and no-mark kids and buy some decent wide midfielders. Under fergie you have always played best with on-form wingers, be it Sharpe and Kanchelskis or Giggs and Beckham. Get some of that drive back and get Duff and Dyer, you can afford it. Beckham and Giggs should not be sacred cows.
Just my opinion, like.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Ever hopefull:
<strong>Okay Seba hasn't been at his best in the Premiership but to blame him for all our Midfield problems is crap. At slmost no point this season have we had Keane, Scholes and Butt available and fully fit at the same time. Becks isn't at his best, neither is giggsy but its not suprising considering the amount of changes that have happened around them.
Changes in personnel and formation.
Our Midfield hasn't been at their best but once they are fit then we can properly assess them and try to figure out where the problems may lie</strong><hr></blockquote>

i'm not blaming Seba, i'm blaming the tactics.

some people in here seem to get it right. Giggs and Becks are pushed too much inside, we lose width and we clog the midfield.

And come on, when both Butt and Keane are back to fullfitness it's not like you'll be able to use them both in a game. you'll have to choose.

you'd end up only replacing Phil with either butt or keane and that's about it. you think that'll change anything?

we're losing a lot of width in the game. Seba's introduction and the tactics we are using are not effective. not blaming seba for all, but blaming the tactics that came with him.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by morpheus:
<strong>I'm not sure you can blame Veron. (Liverpool fan sticks up for Veron shock!). He hasn't really done the business but I remember being on here two seasons ago when people were moaning about the Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beakham midfield being 'stale' and that teams in Europe had worked it out. Clamp down on Giggs and Beckham and you beat United was the complaint, and it still is. Forget Veron, forget Butt's world cup. Stop playing Fortune and no-mark kids and buy some decent wide midfielders. Under fergie you have always played best with on-form wingers, be it Sharpe and Kanchelskis or Giggs and Beckham. Get some of that drive back and get Duff and Dyer, you can afford it. Beckham and Giggs should not be sacred cows.
Just my opinion, like.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you have a point, but i do not agree that we need dyer or duff at the moment.

Think about it. with veron in the center, giggs and becks out wide.. even if other teams can fend off becks and giggs we'll still have veron to do the creative work. it would have been very hard to defend against no matter who you are.

this is what all United fans were hoping for.

but then you know what! now we have 5 CM playing in Giggs, Veron, Scholes, Keane/Butt/Phil, Beckham - all of them trying to push inside and forget the width..

people argue that it's because giggs is losing pace.. so what? becks never had speed or the dribbling skills but he was always priceless out wide..

we already brought in veron - we can do things from the center without the help of giggs and becks. it's already hard to defend against when you have 3 creative players in giggs, becks, veron who can create things out of nothing at all, why push them all inside to play as if they were attached to each other by their heads????

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by morpheus:
<strong> Under fergie you have always played best with on-form wingers, be it Sharpe and Kanchelskis
</strong><hr></blockquote>


Be still my beating heart.

:bigsighsmiley:

 

[kf]

Originally posted by RUnited:
[QB]

but then you know what! now we have 5 CM playing in Giggs, Veron, Scholes, Keane/Butt/Phil, Beckham - all of them trying to push inside and forget the width.. [QB]<hr></blockquote>
well, what I've seen at OT this season is a variation on the system SAF tried last year with Ruud up front on his own & Scholes just off him. What they seem to be doing is rotating the Scholes role between Seba, Becks & Giggsy. It has worked best when Scholes is in the hole but due to injuries etc. we haven't really seen it click. Because of the rotation, Scholesy is happier with it and you've seen for yourself the goals he's scored, he was really not coping with the pressure to score last season. Last year there were several players who were below par in the league - not just Veron/Blanc/name your own scapegoat. In his book, Keano talks about winning as a team and losing as a team - he doesn't pick anyone out or exclude himself and he's right.

The problem we need to solve is that everyone coming to OT basically plays a 4-6 formation when they lose the ball so we can't play just 4 in midfield, we get heavily outnumbered. That's why we're we're playing a 5. We are losing width, this is in part because Gary was missing and he's not got back to his best yet and Micky hasn't been getting forward as much for some reason. Also we're not breaking forward quickly enough from midfield yet so we've seen crosses going into the box with not enough red shirts in there. But as I've said elsewhere, we're in a lot better shape than we were before Christmas last year - we need a fourth striker 'cos Ruud can't do it all on his own & both Ole & Diego haven't been playing as they can.

We just need to hang in there at the moment, when the injuries clear up we'll see...