Players we probably need if Amorim is here next season vs players we probably need

Pogue Mahone

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I think the two lists are identical.

-A really top striker.
-Some cover for Bruno (number 10ish player)
-A really good well rounded CM
-Maybe a tall/fast centre back?
-Right or left winger (Antony replacement)

Or am I missing something? Because I’m reading a lot of chat about what a disaster it would be to sign players for Amorim’s system. Surely the players we need are the same regardless?
 
Unsure on a winger if we are sticking with Amorim, we'd need more specialist wing-backs. I'd also add a goalkeeper to the list of needs, regardless of who the manager is.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Unsure on a winger if we are sticking with Amorim, we'd need more specialist wing-backs. I'd also add a goalkeeper to the list of needs, regardless of who the manager is.
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Wingers and wingbacks are basically interchangeable. That’s why they’re so often converted. There’s always been wingers who are great defensively vs great going forwards. Ideally you want someone who can do both but you prioritise defensive qualities in a wingback.

Agree a goalkeeper needs to be added to the list.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the two lists are identical.

-A really top striker.
-Some cover for Bruno (number 10ish player)
-A really good well rounded CM
-Maybe a tall/fast centre back?
-Right or left winger (Antony replacement)

Or am I missing something? Because I’m reading a lot of chat about what a disaster it would be to sign players for Amorim’s system. Surely the players we need are the same regardless?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if they're dead on the same but I've always thought as long as we target players who have solid baseline levels of technical ability, speed and power then that type of player can work in any team.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Wingers and wingbacks are basically interchangeable. That’s why they’re so often converted. There’s always been wingers who are great defensively vs great going forwards. Ideally you want someone who can do both but you prioritise defensive qualities in a wingback.

Agree a goalkeeper needs to be added to the list.
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Hopefully we sign the kid from Sporting to play on the right, with Dorgu on the left - the two are converted forward players. The club needs such a sensible summer rebuild - we are not in the position to be attracting the usual big names and I do hope we look for Premier League proven players when we can.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Wingers and wingbacks are basically interchangeable. That’s why they’re so often converted. There’s always been wingers who are great defensively vs great going forwards. Ideally you want someone who can do both but you prioritise defensive qualities in a wingback.

Agree a goalkeeper needs to be added to the list.
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That’s just not true. We currently have Antony, Sancho (technically) Rashford, Garna, and Amad as wingers at the club. Only one of which can play at a wingback. Even then, it’s arguable that he is better suited to the job 10 role.
 
If rumours about our spending are to be believed, we don' have the money for a big name striker so it's a free (David) or Hojlund once more.

I think everyone on here is united in wanting pace through most positions, I would hope we can pick up Dorgu like equivalents (young, £25m ish) in CB, CM and RWB + a couple of loans for extra cover in the 10s/CF maybe.

Doukoure - Stasbourg
Fernandes - Soton
Tella - Leverkusen
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the two lists are identical.

-A really top striker.
-Some cover for Bruno (number 10ish player)
-A really good well rounded CM
-Maybe a tall/fast centre back?
-Right or left winger (Antony replacement)

Or am I missing something? Because I’m reading a lot of chat about what a disaster it would be to sign players for Amorim’s system. Surely the players we need are the same regardless?
Click to expand...
Because we’ve kept signing players who’re so far off the pace physically and technically that people don’t realise modern footballers can adapt to different systems. We just need to stop signing the wrong players.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
That’s just not true. We currently have Antony, Sancho (technically) Rashford, Garna, and Amad as wingers at the club. Only one of which can play at a wingback. Even then, it’s arguable that he is better suited to the job 10 role.
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Our “wingers” all have issues that make them less than ideal for any manager, playing any formation. Apart from Amad anyway, who has arguably been Amorim’s second most important player despite allegedly being wrong for his system. Good players will look good in any system.
 
order of importance

prolific striker (no youngsters looking to break through)
keeper
midfielder(s)
winger(s) that can also play wingback if need be.
defender(s)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Our “wingers” all have issues that make them less than ideal for any manager, playing any formation. Apart from Amad anyway, who has arguably been Amorim’s second most important player despite allegedly being wrong for his system. Good players will look good in any system.
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That's not true, as an example Kroos and Modric were tragic as double pivot for Benitez. Amad has the skillset for a wide midfielder even more than as a modern winger which makes him a good fit for the wingback role. Also if you take Amad as a 10 in our current system he was a lesser performer than as a wingback.

It's not true to suggest that good players will look good in any system or any roles(I know I added that).


Otherwise I largely agree with your OP though, I would use Mainoo as the backup for Bruno and target a partner for Bruno, someone that is a very good ball carrier/dribbler.
 
Solius said:
I'm not sure if they're dead on the same but I've always thought as long as we target players who have solid baseline levels of technical ability, speed and power then that type of player can work in any team.
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You're absolutely correct. But those particular baseline levels have to go up several notches at CB and in deeper midfield for the system to take shape. And that's where we're failing as a team because not only do we struggle to build play as a team from the back at a good level we also struggle to control or contain transitions out of possession if we've committed too many players into the opponent's half. And any team that struggles with those aspects will inevitably struggle to impose their game on the opposition. And the key players within those positions are your CBs and deeper midfielders.

If they (the club) signed two midfielders and one CB to raise the pace and power in the team without compromising on passing vertically through the thirds, then it would make a big difference to our game and also the mood around the club. It would then give us a solid foundation to build the team going forward.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Wingers and wingbacks are basically interchangeable. That’s why they’re so often converted. There’s always been wingers who are great defensively vs great going forwards. Ideally you want someone who can do both but you prioritise defensive qualities in a wingback.

Agree a goalkeeper needs to be added to the list.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are interchangeable. Some wingers can be converted to wingback, but plenty would struggle. Especially as more and more wingers these days are more of a wide forward. So that is the one role that I would say can be quite specialised in that a player who is a fantastic wingback might not be be a good fit as a winger or fullback under a different manager. But even then, some will be able to make that transition.

Otherwise I largely agree with you. What Amorim wants in a striker will largely be the same as most other managers. Same for CM. There are some CB's who are significantly better in a back three than they are in a four man defence so there's a chance that that player might later struggle, but most defenders of the right profile will still be the right profile in other formations. Same with #10.
 
It’s interesting/concerning how we might be building a squad for a system that seems fairly unique among coaches. The wingback and #10 positions are somewhat specialized, so we better make sure that the players we get for those positions also work in a 4-2-3-1, when we inevitably sack Amorim in October.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the two lists are identical.

-A really top striker.
-Some cover for Bruno (number 10ish player)
-A really good well rounded CM
-Maybe a tall/fast centre back?
-Right or left winger (Antony replacement)

Or am I missing something? Because I’m reading a lot of chat about what a disaster it would be to sign players for Amorim’s system. Surely the players we need are the same regardless?
Click to expand...
I made a similar post a few days ago. People fretting about “Amorim signings” are just sticking their head in the sand. No matter who the manager is, we need huge upgrades in attack, more athleticism in midfield and defense, and overall just more quality wherever we can get it. And we seem to be targeting younger players who are versatile enough that they are just “system” players who can only play a specific role.

If we go and sign Quenda/Gyokeres/Rigg/ and another CM that’s not an “Amorim summer” because all of those players can still easily play and succeed in a separate system with a new manager.

People are scarred from ETH and his obsession with preferring ex-players he’d managed or played against, but this is a completely different set of decision makers that don’t seem to be operating the same as prior at all.
 
The list is basically the same, recruit good players with the right profile and skillset and it shouldn’t make a huge difference who the manager is.

There are very few specialist wingbacks, it’s either a full back or winger playing the position so even if Amorim leaves whoever we bring in wouldn’t be redundant.

We need a RWB but other than that the priority is the spine of the team, a keeper, a CB, at least one midfielder and a striker.
 
No they’re largely the same thing. It’s one of the more annoying arguments on the caf of late.

3-4-3 is a more difficult system to play for individuals. You’re not going to acquire many players who can play it but struggle to adapt to something less individually demanding.

People also seem to equate our failures in the transfer market as having failed because they were Ten Hag / system players, when they failed because they were (largely) bad players.

Good recruitment should be achievable irrespective of the manager, and recruitment has been our problem for about 16 years now.

And it’s not like our squad just needs a few specialist additions. We need fundamentals, a backbone to the team. We need a lot of athleticism.
 
From a non-Man United fan, this is what I think you need, in order of importance.

A striker.
A goalie.
A winger.
A midfielder.
A full back.
Another striker.
Another midfielder.
Another winger.
Another full back.

Obviously you're not going to sign 9 players but start at the top and work your way down.

You have a million CB and they're all mostly fine. Playing behind a terrible midfield and in front of a goalie none of the team trusts is making them look worse.
 
The players needed are the same regardless of formation.

It's just another excuse to criticise Amorim.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the two lists are identical.

-A really top striker.
-Some cover for Bruno (number 10ish player)
-A really good well rounded CM
-Maybe a tall/fast centre back?
-Right or left winger (Antony replacement)

Or am I missing something? Because I’m reading a lot of chat about what a disaster it would be to sign players for Amorim’s system. Surely the players we need are the same regardless?
Click to expand...
Yes all the talk of 'systems' is generally ill-informed folks parroting things they don't fully grasp.

If you want to play an attacking style of football in the modern era, you must have legs, regardless of the shape you line up in at kick-off.

3-4-3 or 5-3-2 or 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 or whatever are just basic structures that teams keep in and out of possession. You'll probably transition between 10+ different shapes during a game, depending on how the game unfolds.

The reason EtH was unsuccessful and the reason Amorim is currently struggling is because we don't have the required physical attributes. Rangnick identified this, and then EtH set about signing a whole army of slow, unfit, injury-prone, doddery players for mega-money.

So in answer to the question - we just need more athletes across the squad. In defence, in midfield and in attack.

I'd say key areas in urgent need of more physicality is CM and CB
 
MadDogg said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are interchangeable. Some wingers can be converted to wingback, but plenty would struggle. Especially as more and more wingers these days are more of a wide forward. So that is the one role that I would say can be quite specialised in that a player who is a fantastic wingback might not be be a good fit as a winger or fullback under a different manager. But even then, some will be able to make that transition.

Otherwise I largely agree with you. What Amorim wants in a striker will largely be the same as most other managers. Same for CM. There are some CB's who are significantly better in a back three than they are in a four man defence so there's a chance that that player might later struggle, but most defenders of the right profile will still be the right profile in other formations. Same with #10.
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Somewhat agree, there's a Venn diagram there between full backs and wingers in terms of who would be a good wingback. Its some, but not all. Ronaldo circa 2006 would be a liability at wingback, but Valencia c2010 would be a great wingback. I certainly don't think that buying someone who's good as a wingback means they're instantly redundant if you move away from a back 3. Especially if you look at the players who have done well at wingback in recent years, like Ivan Perisic, Theo Hernandez, Reece James, Hakimi, Kyle Walker, Joao Cancelo and so on on, its not like they're a bunch of no hopers in other positions. The club just needs a clear idea for what that player contributes if we change mangers. (Which is exactly the kind of forward planning we've never shown, but hey ho.)
 
1 GK​
2 Striker​
3 CB​
4 CM​
5 #10​
6 Winger​
7 Another CM​

I actually do not agree that we need "specific" signings for the system.

- A good ball playing keeper in the Allison mold will work in any system.
- We need a striker who can hold up the ball and knows the back of the net. Again system independent.
- We need a CB who is strong and can cover spaces, which is again independent of the system. However, if we play with two at the back then we don't need to keep Maguire & Martinez.
- A CM who is mobile and is a good passer of the ball is needed. Again system independent.
- We need a new #10 who is good in tight spaces and can take over from Bruno. In a 5231, he can play with Bruno.
- We need a left footed winger who can double as a WB.
- We also need another CM to form a three man rotation with Ugarte and the passing CM.

I don't buy this talk to needing specialists for this system. We can easily transition from a 5231 to a 4231 or 433 if Ruben doesn't work out and the next manager has other ideas regarding the formation.

GK
Maz CB Yoro
Amad Ugarte CM Dorgu
Bruno #10
Striker

Can easily transition into:

GK
Maz CB Yoro Dorgu
Ugarte CM
Amad Bruno #10
Striker
​
​
 
We need a comfortable ball playing CB who can cover the back three, doesn’t need to be a starter.

A midfielder who can progress the ball and has the legs.

An attacking mid who can run at players and take the ball on the turn.

Another wingback

An experienced striker.

Goalkeeper.

Main one I’d say being realistic is midfielder, attacking mid and wingback. Whether we go cheap with players who fit the profile remain to be seen.
 
Brazilian_Ronaldo_9 said:
We need a comfortable ball playing CB who can cover the back three, doesn’t need to be a starter. Agree

A midfielder who can progress the ball and has the legs. Agree

An attacking mid who can run at players and take the ball on the turn. Moorgate

Another wingback Kamason

An experienced striker. Absolute must

Goalkeeper. Absolute must

Main one I’d say being realistic is midfielder, attacking mid and wingback. Whether we go cheap with players who fit the profile remain to be seen.
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Only one in my opinion would be a wing back vs a wing forward.
If we were going back to 433 i'd target a goalscoring winger, more in the Rashford mold than a more rounded player like dorgu or amad.
 
I'd say the CB and full back is fine if we go with a back 4, but in a 3-4-3 then we need a right wing back and better cover for Martinez.

In midfield, Bruno and Ugarte is our main midfield pairing if Amorim stays, so we need cover for Ugarte but Mainoo can rotate with Bruno when needed in the 3-4-3, while if we do a 4-3-3 type formation then we need another starter along with depth for Ugarte (whether that starter is a deep playmaker and we push Bruno up, or we get the advanced guy and we keep Bruno deep is different but it's a different type of player to what's needed in Amorims system).

In attack, we need a goalscoring striker either way, but if we go 3-4-3 then we need a top inside #10 type like Cunha, but if we go 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 then we need a high level winger like a Nico Williams.

In a 4-3-3, I'd say we need:
  • CF starter
  • LW starter
  • Wing depth
  • CM playmaker starter
  • CM ball winner depth
  • Probably goalkeeper
In a 3-4-3 I'd say we need:
  • CF starter
  • Dynamic #10 starter
  • RWB starter
  • LCB depth
  • CM ball winner depth
  • Probably goalkeeper
So if we get rid of Amorim after a year, then we'll go back to the situation of having a bunch of #10s who can do a job wide but never be natural there and need to figure that out.
 
  1. a goal keeper that can save shots
  2. a no 9 that consistently score goals every season
  3. another creative midfielder ( because everyone just looks for Bruno to do something)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the two lists are identical.

-A really top striker.
-Some cover for Bruno (number 10ish player)
-A really good well rounded CM
-Maybe a tall/fast centre back?
-Right or left winger (Antony replacement)

Or am I missing something? Because I’m reading a lot of chat about what a disaster it would be to sign players for Amorim’s system. Surely the players we need are the same regardless?
Click to expand...

A really top striker will resolve most of our problems imo. The question is whether one exists and is available.
 
red_de_pologne said:
He wouldn't but we won't find out anyway, because we sure ain't getting one.
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We can't afford not to buy a quality striker that is either world class or very near it. Without goals, Amorim and Berrada's project will struggle to get anywhere near top 4 next year.
 
Raoul said:
I expect us to compete for top 4 or better. You'd be surprised how things can suddenly change by the knock on effect of a top striker.
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Admire your optimism. Just don't see us leapfrogging teams that:

a) have better squads than us now
b) are in a better financial position
c) strengthen their finances by participation/qualification for CL this season
d) will improve their squads that are already ahead

Teams like Newcastle, Brighton, Villa, Bournemouth will be in theory in a better starting position, not to mention City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool.
 
Striker is P1 for sure.
P2 would be a RWB/RB assuming Dorgu is up to the task of LWB and we have cover in Luke Shaw (wishful thinking maybe)
P3 is GK.

I think these are all needed regardless. Replacements should be made for other positions if players are let go.
 
We need pace and technique throughout this team.

Two Very fast wing backs.
A very fast CB
a proven striker
A creative midfielder
A goalkeeper upgrade.
 
red_de_pologne said:
Admire your optimism. Just don't see us leapfrogging teams that:

a) have better squads than us now
b) are in a better financial position
c) strengthen their finances by participation/qualification for CL this season
d) will improve their squads that are already ahead

Teams like Newcastle, Brighton, Villa, Bournemouth will be in theory in a better starting position, not to mention City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool.
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I don't think many teams have better squads than us. The problem is we're not scoring goals. Once the goals start flowing, the rest of the outfield players will suddenly seem far more effective than they are now. When you also factor in players like Quenda and one or two other quality buys, combined with being 100% healthy again (Mount, Shaw, Licha, Amad, Mainoo et al.), you're suddenly looking at a whole new set of possibilities.

Even scoring 15-20 more goals next year could be the difference between bottom half and top 4. Forest, for example, are in 3rd with a mere 44 goals this year. Things can radically change with an effective striker, which will immediately raise confidence levels across all other outfield players. Right now, our attack looks weak because we lack ideas in the final third and opponents know this. That is the number one thing that has to be addressed this summer, and I suspect it will.
 
duffer said:
From a non-Man United fan, this is what I think you need, in order of importance.

A striker.
A goalie.
A winger.
A midfielder.
A full back.
Another striker.
Another midfielder.
Another winger.
Another full back.

Obviously you're not going to sign 9 players but start at the top and work your way down.

You have a million CB and they're all mostly fine. Playing behind a terrible midfield and in front of a goalie none of the team trusts is making them look worse.
Click to expand...

A top striker, not a striker-in-training, is imperative. If we fail to bring in a top striker we'll still be muddling in mid-table at best.

A keeper is, unfortunately, critical as well. Onana has failed to meet expectations and in some ways has been shocking. But if we somehow brought in a top striker and a top right wingback and called it a day because of financial restraints I'd be ok with keeping Onana for another season, although it would be ideal if we could upgrade there. I suspect we'll have to settle for a journeyman midfielder to replace Eriksen, who's a squad player anyway.

Despite how disjointed our performances have been, I really do believe that with a bit of freshening up with a proper striker and a competent right wingback we could return to the top four conversation next season. Everyone knows this, but we really have been wrecked beyond what is normal with injuries this season. If we can somehow entertain the possibility of Mainoo going a full season fit, and Mount and Shaw giving us half a season, Amad giving us most of the season, adding a striker and RB could put us back on the path toward respectability.
 
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