Pat vs Skizzo - Tactical Draft SF

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
16,200
Team Pat


Sir Alex Ferguson:
Raul is so difficult to play against when he starts taking up the positions he did tonight. He always seems to be an outlet for them and we never contained that part. We know Zinedine Zidane and Luis Figo are great players but we could have handled that. Raul was very difficult. Real Madrid have bought some great players over the last few years but, at the moment, Raul is the best in the world.
Fernando Hierro:
He was not a 10 out of 10 in anything but he was an eight-and-a-half in everything

Another game and another formation. Raul reprises his mid-late 90s role as the deepest player in an attacking trident. Personally this version of Raul is the one I've enjoyed watching most whilst researching him,as he dropped deeper and showcased his passing, ball-carrying and underrated workrate.

Defence: High-ish defensive line, dropping off if the initial press fails. Boateng will tend to attack the first ball, with Koeman sweeping up behind him. Koeman to orchestrate the transitions when possible, either finding the front men or wingers early or else opting for the slower build up.

Midfield: Haan anchors, with Giles and Hassler flanking him. Raul at the tip of the diamond/base of the attack, will play a big part in building our attacks and can be relied on to put in the graft out of possession too.

Attack: Raul plays in a familiar attacking structure here, reminiscent of the Raul/Mijatovic/Suker, Raul/Mijatovic/Morientes and Raul/Morientes/Anelka trios he featured in at Real. Careca comes back in as the 'reference point' at centre forward, with his movement and intelligent, muscular hold up play making him a fine fit for the role. Jupp Heynckes comes in alongside him. Proficent across the entire forward line, the fast and prolific Heynckes will rove across the width of the pitch to search for space and stretch the defence. Raul is the deepest of the trio, and he'll play a big role in our build ups, while capitalising on the movement and link up play of Careca and Heynckes to find scoring opportunities in and around the penalty area.

It's a narrow-ish attacking structure on paper, just like the great Raul/Mijatovic/Suker trio, but there's plenty of options for providing the requisite width. Heynckes was outstanding on either flank as a wide attacker, and Giles and Hassler both played as wingers during their careers. Moreover, we have two of the outstanding attacking full backs in the pool in Cabrini and Beszonov to provide consistent outlets on the flanks.

rghkre-formation-tactics.png

hgf-formation-tactics.png

Team Skizzo


Style - direct

Central Player - Gianni Rivera
Nero Rocco said:
"Yes, he doesn't run a lot, but if I want good football, creativity, the art of turning around a situation from the first to the ninetieth minute, only Rivera can give me all of this with his flashes. I wouldn't want to exaggerate, because in the end it's only football, but Rivera in all of this is a genius."
Rivera was highly regarded for his outstanding ball control, dribbling skills, and excellent technique, as well as his quick feet, acceleration over short distances, agility, and balance on the ball, which allowed him to change direction quickly, and dribble past players with ease. Despite his notable skill, technical ability, and elegance on the ball, Rivera would often avoid undertaking individual dribbling runs or challenging defenders gratuitously in one on one situations, in particular in his later career, unless he deemed them necessary; he preferred instead to create space and chances for his team through his precise passing game and offensive movement. Indeed, above all, Rivera was known for his excellent vision, ability to interpret the game, and his sublime range of passing, which allowed him to control his team's play in midfield with short exchanges, spread long passes across the pitch, or even play the ball first time, and also made him an excellent assist provider from any position on the field, with both feet; in 2011, former playmaker and UEFA president Michel Platini described Rivera as one of the greatest passers in the history of the sport.

Despite being primarily a creative midfielder, and a team player, who preferred assisting teammates over scoring goals himself, Rivera was also known for his ability to make attacking runs and for his keen eye for goal; an accurate finisher from both inside and outside the area, he is the highest-scoring midfielder in Serie A history, and the third highest-scoring midfielder in the history of the Italian national team. He was also an accurate set piece and penalty-kick taker. Rivera is widely considered to be one of the greatest Italian footballers and one of the most talented advanced playmakers of all time, as well as one of the best players of his generation.

Gianni_Rivera_-_Milan_AC_-_Pallone_d%27oro_1969.jpg


The 1969 Balon D'or was awarded to Rivera after his outstanding performances in the European Cup, in which he led Milan to the final, and a dominant win over Cruyff's Ajax team. His performance in that final is considered one of his greatest, most dominant performances, playing in the number 10 role, and assisting in 2 of his team's goals in that final.

In that final, Milan were set up in the same manner we have here, with a sweeper stopper combination (Tresor-Vidic to Malatrasi-Rosato), a midfield two behind Rivera who are able to allow him to concentrate on the offensive side of the game by doing the "dirty work" for him, and also offer outlets for his passing (Clodoaldo-Jansen to Lodetti-Trapattoni), flanked by two wingers who would offer a balance of stretch the play with genuine wing threat, and also cutting inside to offer a direct goalscoring threat (Gadocha-Lato to Hamrin-Pratti) and a striker who could lead the line with his physical play, but also his capability to take part in the build up play with his passing (Van Persie to Sormani).

Defence - Stopper with a covering defender. With the ball, Tresor will look to play it out from the back, or use Amoros/Bossis to bring it forward when available. Vidic comes in for the stopper role.

Midfield - Jansen and Clodoaldo will look to win the ball back quickly, doing their usual defensive job in front of the defense. When they have the ball, they will look to quickly play it into Rivera who will dictate the play and use the space available created by the movement around him. Clodoaldo will tend to hold his position a little more, Jansen will look to drift when in possession to open space and offer another outlet for Rivera.

Attack - Gadocha will look to offer more of a genuine wide threat, stretching play, and looking to deliver balls into the box. Lato offers the more direct threat, cutting in and making runs in behind for Rivera to pick out. Van Persie will look to get involved in the build up, linking up with Rivera, but offering another runner in behind, playing off the shoulder of the defender at times and using his movement to find space for the vision of Rivera to pick out.

Rivera is obviously the player intended to build around, and we've set him up here in a very similar style which led to him winning the Balon D'or. Everyone around him is tasked with freeing him up, and offering him the best possibly platform to shine and thrive, pulling the strings as he did at his very best.

KEY POINT: As i made mention of in the first round..all key players around Rivera thrived in a set up where they played with a similar central figure. Lato and Gadocha with Deyna, Jansen with Cruyff, Clodoaldo with Pele, Bossis/Tresor/Amoros with Platini, and to lesser extent, RVP with Sneijder. All of them were part of very successful teams and part of a bigger unit which was led by a top-tier central playmaker/figure.
 
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  • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
  • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.

good luck @Pat_Mustard , thread is up @Skizzo
 
You too mate! I'll be in and out (heyyyyyyy) most of the day since we're celebrating my daughters birthweek apparently.

I really don't have much if anything negative to say about your team*, so this could be a slow burner. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on an ideal set up for Raul at some point if you get a chance, and I won't be too (too) offended if it's not this one :D.

* bar Vidic being slower than my nan of course :wenger:
 
as we already established in previous rounds, both teams are spot on, i like the new formations from pat as well....would probably work better then the false nine(:(). The only questiomark in both teams from the tactical standpoint is Boateng Koeman partnership. Not sure if i like that....
 
I really don't have much if anything negative to say about your team*, so this could be a slow burner. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on an ideal set up for Raul at some point if you get a chance, and I won't be too (too) offended if it's not this one :D.

* bar Vidic being slower than my nan of course :wenger:

I shared some of your thoughts from a previous match about Raul and the set up you were using, I'll dig back through them a little later. The positive and negative thing about Raul for you so far seems to have been (as your quote suggests) he was a high level player in a variety of roles, but maybe not truly excelling at the highest level at one of them. It's created an interesting "problem" for you in that you've been able to shuffle your formation almost every time and still put forward a team that he'll thrive in, but some people will also say wasn't his best based on what they remember him being so great at.

All in all it's been impressive the way you've managed to put out a variety of set ups with varying personnel and still made it work really well.

I'll come dig a little deeper later.
 
Beszonov? Voted for Skizzo.

edit: okay, seriously. It's either Bezsonov (Ukranian) or Bessonov (Russian). It means "without sleep", if you switch "s" and "z" he suddenly becomes a footballer "without a zone" - doesn't sound good.
 
as we already established in previous rounds, both teams are spot on, i like the new formations from pat as well....would probably work better then the false nine(:(). The only questiomark in both teams from the tactical standpoint is Boateng Koeman partnership. Not sure if i like that....
To be fair, Koeman thrived with some very strange partners in Guardiola and Rijkaard. It shouldn't have worked on paper, but it did in real life, and I can buy Boateng as a more conservative (and inferior) version of 88' Rijkaard
 
Beszonov? Voted for Skizzo.

edit: okay, seriously. It's either Bezsonov (Ukranian) or Bessonov (Russian). It means "without sleep", if you switch "s" and "z" he suddenly becomes a footballer "without a zone" - doesn't sound good.

Oh bollocks :lol:. I checked the spelling of his first name about 5 times when I used it in previous teamsheets, and got the surname wrong every time.

rghkre-formation-tactics.png


@Šjor Bepo could you do the hnours when you get a chance?
 
I'm not sure this is the absolutely best raul for Role. Or the other way around if you insist.

But who cares. Both teams are stuffed with players I absolutely love - and they seem to be used well.

Another reason not to vote. It's my new thing - I don't vote. I regard myself as a Buddha of sorts in the draft world - you know, a slightly creepy fecker who claims to be all about negating individuality and so forth.

Seriously, though, I can't recall seeing two XIs with more of my old faves than these two. Jansen, Hässler, feckin' Rivera himself, Haan, Careca, Amoros, Bessonov (or Bezsonov), and them Polish boys on top of everything else.

On Role, I appreciate the thing (by the way): Vary the rauls somewhat (compared to previous rounds). I get that. And he could - nay, would - do well in that capacity. Arguably not his best, though. Whereas the Italian is obviously doing precisely what he did best.

But again, who feckin' cares. Old lovers pitted against each other in a match that attracts no attention. There's beauty in that - an understated sort of tristesse.
 
I'm not sure this is the absolutely best raul for Role. Or the other way around if you insist.

what are your concerns? Not creative enough and not the strongest with ball in his feet are mine but then you see Giles and Hassler behind him and somehow all fits in very nicely. Can see him playing as a link man with simple passes and pat getting the most out of him as an attacker coming from deep.
 
what are your concerns? Not creative enough and not the strongest with ball in his feet are mine but then you see Giles and Hassler behind him and somehow all fits in very nicely. Can see him playing as a link man with simple passes and pat getting the most out of him as an attacker coming from deep.

Not really a concern. Like I said, he'd do well.

I see him ideally as one of the two up front, though. Makes it easier for him to do his thing - playing that sort of neither-here-nor-there part he did better than most. He's too obvious somehow in what looks like a tenner role (but isn't, as anyone can see - not in the traditional sense).

I dunno. If you get those 11 players to fiddle about with, then yeah - sure. But that ain't the premise. He should be shining like a crazy diamond, not be pretty good. Hard to say, though. He's in that bracket. Hard to nail down, could conceivably work brilliantly in all sorts of setups.
 
I'm not sure this is the absolutely best raul for Role. Or the other way around if you insist.

But who cares. Both teams are stuffed with players I absolutely love - and they seem to be used well.

Another reason not to vote. It's my new thing - I don't vote. I regard myself as a Buddha of sorts in the draft world - you know, a slightly creepy fecker who claims to be all about negating individuality and so forth.

Seriously, though, I can't recall seeing two XIs with more of my old faves than these two. Jansen, Hässler, feckin' Rivera himself, Haan, Careca, Amoros, Bessonov (or Bezsonov), and them Polish boys on top of everything else.

On Role, I appreciate the thing (by the way): Vary the rauls somewhat (compared to previous rounds). I get that. And he could - nay, would - do well in that capacity. Arguably not his best, though. Whereas the Italian is obviously doing precisely what he did best.

But again, who feckin' cares. Old lovers pitted against each other in a match that attracts no attention. There's beauty in that - an understated sort of tristesse.

:lol: A beautiful post.

what are your concerns? Not creative enough and not the strongest with ball in his feet are mine but then you see Giles and Hassler behind him and somehow all fits in very nicely. Can see him playing as a link man with simple passes and pat getting the most out of him as an attacker coming from deep.

Cheers mate. The one constant in these different formations has indeed been that I've tried to surround Raul with other players to share the playmaking burden and provide a dribbling threat.
 
A wee bit of footage of Raul in this role. Firstly, a truly brilliant performance in the Madrid derby:



Some highlights:

1:00 Arrives late at the edge of the penalty area to equalise
1:48 Nice reverse pass to Mijatovic on the right wing
2:03 Dribbling from deep
2:18 Gorgeous 2nd goal
3:20 Good back to goal play and then a great assist for Seedorf
4:40 Another fine assist for Victor

and another superb performance against Barca a few years, this time playing behind Morientes and Anelka:



Two moments from that Barca match showing the quality of his work from deeper areas, an aspect of his game that arguably diminished later in his career, perhaps because he played in a more advanced role, or maybe just because there were so many other stars demanding the ball in those deeper areas in the Galacticos era.


https://streamable.com/s0bta
 
as we already established in previous rounds, both teams are spot on, i like the new formations from pat as well....would probably work better then the false nine(:(). The only questiomark in both teams from the tactical standpoint is Boateng Koeman partnership. Not sure if i like that....
What's the issue with it? On first glance I'd say that Boateng's athleticism, modern-day high-line expertise and general quality on the ball dovetails nicely with Koeman while compensating for any of the Dutch man's weaknesses.
 
I told myself I would vote Pat this round if he played Careca and he did - maybe unfair to Skizzo so sorry about that - but I'll always love Careca more than van Persie and Careca's omission last round was blasphemous to me as he does really perfectly suited for his role. van Persie definitely should have been upgraded IMO

I can understand the Boateng-Koeman criticism. They just don't feel very complementary. Boateng maybe unfair seems fragile with his injury issues and one of his key skills - long range passing _ is already covered by Koeman. But then again van Persie was bigger injury note his career than Boateng so Pat wins in the end for me.

Edit
Actually thinking about it, it would be a tragedy if van Persie makes it into the final. He simply isn't good enough even with the block list. He doesn't even have a 3 year peak ffs, just a two year one :devil:
 
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My only minor quibble with Skizzo's team is I'd probably prefer to see a more aggressive centre-forward to attack the steady supply of crosses from the Polish wide men. It's tricky to get that and someone who can play well off Rivera, but there are options out there (who are also better than RVP IMO).
 
I told myself I would vote Pat this round if he played Careca and he did - maybe unfair to Skizzo so sorry about that - but I'll always love Careca more than van Persie and Careca's omission last round was blasphemous to me as he does really perfectly suited for his role. van Persie definitely should have been upgraded IMO

I can understand the Boateng-Koeman criticism. They just don't feel very complementary. Boateng maybe unfair seems fragile with his injury issues and one of his key skills - long range passing _ is already covered by Koeman. But then again van Persie was bigger injury note his career than Boateng so Pat wins in the end for me.

No need to apologize, everyone has reasons for voting how they vote :) I agree RVP was a position I thought about upgrading, but couldn't find someone I was happy with, and ended up adding Amoros to my French backline :)

I have someone in mind should I be so fortunate to go through :angel:
 
My only minor quibble with Skizzo's team is I'd probably prefer to see a more aggressive centre-forward to attack the steady supply of crosses from the Polish wide men. It's tricky to get that and someone who can play well off Rivera, but there are options out there (who are also better than RVP IMO).

I really feel van Persie is the weakest link on the pitch here. He is the most likely to go off the pitch broken down with injury and his brilliance was always mercurial
 
What's the issue with it? On first glance I'd say that Boateng's athleticism, modern-day high-line expertise and general quality on the ball dovetails nicely with Koeman while compensating for any of the Dutch man's weaknesses.

Aye, it was his suitability for a high defensive line and his pace and power that appealed to me.
 
What's the issue with it? On first glance I'd say that Boateng's athleticism, modern-day high-line expertise and general quality on the ball dovetails nicely with Koeman while compensating for any of the Dutch man's weaknesses.

not even sure(if i was id vote :)), something doesnt feel right. Id probably prefer a proper stopper alongside any of them as both are leaning towards sweeper category but even then im not sure if i would like the team. Koeman is just an odd player and i cant figure him out, would probably like him only as a libero in a back three.
 
I told myself I would vote Pat this round if he played Careca and he did - maybe unfair to Skizzo so sorry about that - but I'll always love Careca more than van Persie and Careca's omission last round was blasphemous to me as he does really perfectly suited for his role. van Persie definitely should have been upgraded IMO

I can understand the Boateng-Koeman criticism. They just don't feel very complementary. Boateng maybe unfair seems fragile with his injury issues and one of his key skills - long range passing _ is already covered by Koeman. But then again van Persie was bigger injury note his career than Boateng so Pat wins in the end for me.

Edit
Actually thinking about it, it would be a tragedy if van Persie makes it into the final. He simply isn't good enough even with the block list. He doesn't even have a 3 year peak ffs, just a two year one :devil:

Cheers mate. I shouldn't really have dropped Careca in the first place really as he's such a good fit with Raul, but that fecking false 9 system looked too sexy on the formation graphc to pass up on :)
 
@Joga Bonito @harms any thoughts on Heynckes' role here? It's not the typical 3 man attack with wide forwards I'd typically associate with him but I think he'd enjoy this role. Just to expand on how it might actually look at times, here's someone's interpretation of Real's initial shape in the 1998 CL final:

initial-shape.png


I see him having plenty of scope to play off the shoulder and use his pace to get in behind the defence with good, creative service from the likes of Koeman, Giles, Hassler and Raul, and making runs similar to Anelka here:



He also seemed to be a very good crosser, so could be a useful source of potential assists for Raul from wide areas.
 
I shared some of your thoughts from a previous match about Raul and the set up you were using, I'll dig back through them a little later. The positive and negative thing about Raul for you so far seems to have been (as your quote suggests) he was a high level player in a variety of roles, but maybe not truly excelling at the highest level at one of them. It's created an interesting "problem" for you in that you've been able to shuffle your formation almost every time and still put forward a team that he'll thrive in, but some people will also say wasn't his best based on what they remember him being so great at.

All in all it's been impressive the way you've managed to put out a variety of set ups with varying personnel and still made it work really well.

I'll come dig a little deeper later.
I'm afraid that's the basis I'm voting Pat here. It is mighty impressive how his initial drafting and reinforcements have allowed him to field different teams and tactics all clearly revolving around Raúl's many possible incarnations.

It is somewhat unfair on you in that it comes with the designated player (there isn't as much scope for that with Rivera, although I would have liked to see him in a zona mista too).

That said, there was pretty much nothing to upgrade in your first team other than the original striker (Sormani) sharing RvPs technique and build up qualities but adding a significant aerial presence, which would come handy with your Polish duo. That's what you should have reinforced and, if you go through, definitely what you need to address going into the final.
 
@Joga Bonito @harms any thoughts on Heynckes' role here? It's not the typical 3 man attack with wide forwards I'd typically associate with him but I think he'd enjoy this role. Just to expand on how it might actually look at times, here's someone's interpretation of Real's initial shape in the 1998 CL final:

initial-shape.png


I see him having plenty of scope to play off the shoulder and use his pace to get in behind the defence with good, creative service from the likes of Koeman, Giles, Hassler and Raul, and making runs similar to Anelka here:



He also seemed to be a very good crosser, so could be a useful source of potential assists for Raul from wide areas.


Love it myself and think there's lot of room for both Raul and Heynckes to exchange roles here if needed to. It's a very fluid midfield and attack with the likes of Heynckes, Raul, Careca, Hassler all being capable of functioning centrally or drifting out wide or being the creator or the finisher (less so for Hassler). Looks great to me, and think it's precisely the sort of set-up that Raul would thrive in.
 
I'm afraid that's the basis I'm voting Pat here. It is mighty impressive how his initial drafting and reinforcements have allowed him to field different teams and tactics all clearly revolving around Raúl's many possible incarnations.

It is somewhat unfair on you in that it comes with the designated player (there isn't as much scope for that with Rivera, although I would have liked to see him in a zona mista too).

That said, there was pretty much nothing to upgrade in your first team other than the original striker (Sormani) sharing RvPs technique and build up qualities but adding a significant aerial presence, which would come handy with your Polish duo. That's what you should have reinforced and, if you go through, definitely what you need to address going into the final.

Cheers Anto. Aye, there's definitely different challenges depending on what designated player you got. For me, I never thought I was likely to get anywhere in this draft as there's so many different possibilities with Raul that it's impossible to make everyone happy. On the other hand it's been alot of fun tweaking things from game to game, and watching bits and pieces from throughout his career. For Skizzo the big challenge was nailing things correctly from the start (which he's done excellently), and then avoiding brainfarts, which is where not having me as an AM comes in handy :D.

Love it myself and think there's lot of room for both Raul and Heynckes to exchange roles here if needed to. It's a very fluid midfield and attack with the likes of Heynckes, Raul, Careca, Hassler all being capable of functioning centrally or drifting out wide or being the creator or the finisher (less so for Hassler). Looks great to me, and think it's precisely the sort of set-up that Raul would thrive in.

Awesome, I'm glad you like it. I think this is my favourite of my three lineups.