Pat vs Downcast/MJJ/Arbitrium - Tactical Draft

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


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Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
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Team Pat

Sir Alex Ferguson:
Raul is so difficult to play against when he starts taking up the positions he did tonight. He always seems to be an outlet for them and we never contained that part. We know Zinedine Zidane and Luis Figo are great players but we could have handled that. Raul was very difficult. Real Madrid have bought some great players over the last few years but, at the moment, Raul is the best in the world.’

Fernando Hierro:
He was not a 10 out of 10 in anything but he was an eight-and-a-half in everything

From 1995-96 to 2003-04 Raul never dropped under 20 goals a season, playing in a variety of formations and in several different roles. He was excellent in a three-pronged attack behind Suker and Mijatovic (and later, more briefly, Anelka and Morientes), and performed creditably as a line leader at times too. His apex IMO, was as a second striker, and that's how we've deployed him here.

Hierro and Fergie's quotes are key to my understanding of him as a player, and to the philosophy of this team. We don't want him constrained by having him lead the line, to be the principal ball carrier, or the main playmaker. With a supporting cast picked for their ability to carry out these functions without overshadowing Raul, he's got free rein to exploit his greatest assets, namely his footballing intelligence and his incredible ability to find space. He's free to link up and help orchestrate the build up play, or he can ghost into goalscoring positions, all as he sees fit. As this excellent article by Jacob Steinberg states,
Raúl was a varied player, a contradiction of sorts. He could play in a withdrawn role as a creator, linking the play, and at times he was part of an ultra cerebral little and large partnership with Fernando Morientes, but he was somewhere in between a No9 and a No10. He wore different outfits for different occasions. He could be a fox in the box or he could prowl outside it.


Style: A fast tempo, fluid attacking game, interspersed with periods of possession football. Think Real Madrid battering us in 2000.

Defence: A fairly high defensive line to minimise space between our lines. An aggressive press when we lose possession with the team dropping back into two banks of four if the initial press fails. Boateng will tend to attack the first ball, with Koeman sweeping up behind him. Koeman to orchestrate the transitions when possible, either finding the front men or wingers early or else opting for the slower build up.

Midfield: Giles and Haan are particularly well-suited to supporting the press when we're out of possession. Haan and Giles are both excellent all-rounders, but Giles will assume the main playmaking mantle. Barnes is the more orthodox winger with Hassler coming infield more and playing more as an RM and supporting playmaker.

Attack: As discussed already, Raul plays as a second striker with freedom to roam wherever he wants when we're in possession. He produced probably the best form of his career playing alongside an orthodox centre forward in Morientes, and his partner Careca looks a good fit to perform a similar function here.

The overall set up is somewhat similar to a mirrored version of Real ~2003, with Hassler as Zidane, with a rampaging full back providing alot of width on that side (Beszonov for Roberto Carlos). Barnes takes the Figo role, we field two solid CMs, and then Raul plays off a main striker.

All in all, I'm confident we've recreated the main elements Raul requires to be at his best: A line-leader partnering him up front. Barnes and Hassler to provide width and ball-carrying ability. The likes of Giles/Hassler/Koeman as playmakers, and a supporting cast who are all attacking in instinct and good on the ball.

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Team Downcast/MJJ/Arbitrium

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ROYAL PHILOSOPHY/IDEOLOGY OF THE TACTICAL SET-UP

ENGLAND MAKES HIM KING

The King feels at home in England and will be surrounded by 8 successful players familiar with the authentic and successful British English Football we love. The choice of these players was driven by many factors: quality, track record, tactical considerations, 'Cantona-Compatibility Index', Cantona-Welfare Optimization... This 1st point is more about values, philosophy, understanding of Football and style of play.
In concrete terms, the project is to develop a relatively straight-forward Football style with generous teammates whose main assets are heart, fighting-spirit and simplicity. So-called 'Tiki Taka players' or players with a Phd in tactics are not the welcome. The unsuccessful Man City of Guardiola is clearly our antithesis: a lot of blah blah and a disappointing end product at all levels. We do believe Beauty is Simplicity and that England will always welcome non-British players who bring fighting-spirit (Vidic, Simeone, typically players like Kanté) or creativity (Cantona, Pirès, Michel, Butragueno). We are proud to offer 3 Football League 100 Legends (Cantona, Bremner, Southall).

MANCHESTER UNITED 1993/94 IS OUR MAIN INSPIRATION FROM AN IDEOLOGICAL/TACTICAL STANDPOINT TO MAKE THE KING HAPPY <> THE MOST EXCITING/ENTERTAINING UNITED SIDE OF THE LAST 20 YEARS?

---------------------SCHMEICHEL--------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
---------------BRUCE(C)---------PALLISTER---------------
PARKER----------------------------------------IRWIN-------
-----------------------------------------------------------
------------------KEANE---------INCE----------------------
KANCHELSKIS----------------------------------GIGGS------
----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------CANTONA------HUGHES------------------

93/94: the team won the Premier League, the FA Cup and the Charity Shield
93/94: With Man United Cantona scored 25 goals in 49 games --> 1993 Ballon d'Or 3rd place + PFA Players' Player of the Year + PFA Premier League Team of the Year

Cantona also scored with France so 30 goals in 57 games.

93/94 it was also the season he was given the No.7 shirt :drool:

OUR STYLE? BRITISH FIGHTING-SPIRIT WITH FRANCO-SPANISH FLAIR

- Crucial role of the sided-midfielders who will appreciate the support of the full-backs
- Strong in counter-attacking
- Strong defensive asset
- 8 players with a high work-rate
- Very limited defensive tasks attributed to the King

---------------------MATCH-WINNER--------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
--------------- GLADIATOR---------CRAZY HORSE---------------
RELIABILITY---------------------------------------------PSYCHO-------
-----------------------------------------------------------
------------------STRENGTH AND HIGH WORK-RATE ----------------------
CREATIVITY------------------------------------------- PASSING ------
----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------CANTONA------VERSATILITY ------------------


CENTRAL PLAYER - THE KING WILL RULE AT HIS BEST AS HE IS SURROUNDED BY TRUSTED/COMMITED/TALENTED SERVANTS IN A UNITED WAY



PLEASE OPEN THE SPOILER TO WATCH ALL HIS GOALS FOR UNITED




1. CANTONA IS MADE TO PLAY IN A 4-4-2 SYSTEM AS A FREE-ROLE KING PLAYER

Is he a no.9? Or a a second striker? Is he a goal-poacher or a central playmaker/attacker? Humm, a a free role forward? He's all of them! He could shoot, he was great in the air, he could volley or run with the ball, great close technical ability too....humm... he was a KING FFS!

A King who needs total freedom of action at the Heart of the Game so that the Sun can enlighten the Game but also make the opponent get sunburnt by joining the penalty area. Like Zola, his impact on British Football was also the result of his ability to drop off and play between the lines. We also preserve his animal instinct that makes him special (Kung-Fu goal/assist)

This system will provide him with free license to create at will and join the penalty area. In concrete terms, he will have a limited required defensive contribution

2. THE SUN CANTONA NEEDS VERY MOBILE PLAYERS AROUND HIM TO SHINE

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Raul is another story: I consider him as a Pharaoh who reached his peak at the top of a Pyramid...

3. NOBODY TO QUESTION HIS ROLE BUT EVERYBODY TO SUPPORT HIM

All the other players are pure collective players. To be detailed later.

4. YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND CANTONA-GIGGS HAD A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP: NO BETTER CHOICE THAN PIRES TO REPLACE GIGGS

If you watch all the goals scored by Cantona, you would see that he scored more goals thanks to Giggs than to any other players. As you know, Giggs is the #1 provider of assists in the history of the EPL. Another explanation is that Cantona was a right-footed player so it was easier for him to have the right body position and exploit the crosses of Ryan.



5. MICHEL IS THE SPANISH KANCHELSKIS: A BRILLIANT WINGER IN TERMS OF CREATIVITY AND IMPACT



6. THE VULTURE BUTRAGENO WILL COMBINE HARMONIOUSLY WITH CANTO: THE ARTISTIC ALLIANCE



To be explained later

7. A DYNAMIC CENTRAL MIDFIELD: 2 B2B WITH A HIGH WORK-RATE >> SIMILARITIES WITH KEANE/INCE IN TERMS OF DEFENSIVE/OFFENSIVE CONTRIBUTION

Below the example of Bremner who knows how to play the United way.



8. A STRONG DEFENCE

The centre half partnership - a mix of silk and steel - has been the template for the majority of the best central-defensive pairings at Manchester United in the last 50 years. In 93/94, United had it with Bruce/Pallister and this XI has it with Emlyn Hughes and Vidic. Emlyn Hughes was a great reader of the game, with a sound touch and a good passer of the ball. Vidic was the perfect foil - the immovable object in defence always heading crosses and set pieces away from the danger zone when his team was under pressure. An aggressive, no-nonsense tackler who would put his body on the line with gaping wounds and broken noses demonstrating his commitment.

- Normal Defensive Line
- Zonal marking essentially
- Off the ball - Aggressive closing down and compact defense
- On the ball -Basic & risk-free passing to midfield

9. ALL MY PLAYERS WERE SUCCESSFUL IN A 4-4-2 SYSTEM

10. ERIC WILL APPRECIATE THE RUNS OF THE CENTRAL MIDFIELD TO GET MORE OPTIONS TO PASS


PLAYERS ROLE (chosen version into brackets)

CF-BUTRAGENO (86) - Ballon d'Or Bronze Ball 86, 87 - World Cup All-Star Team: 86 - Real Madrid 123 goals/341 games - Spain 26 goals/69 games
El Buitre (The Vulture) was a member of the legendary Quinta del Buitre, along with Manolo Sanchís, Rafael Martín Vázquez, Míchel and Miguel Pardeza. He was chosen because he was well-rounded, collective and mobile.

Left-Midfielder PIRES (02) - WC Winner 98 + Euro Winner 00 -FWA Footballer of the Year: 01–02 -PFA Team of the Year: 01–02, 02–03, 03–04
Pires has enabled Arsenal to be called 'The Invincibles'. High work-rate. King of the pass. Great stats too: 62 goals in 189 games.

R-Midf. MICHEL (86)-Spanish player of the year 86- Ballon D'or 87 4th place - Spain 21 goals/66 games-WC 86/90: 9 games/4 goals/2 assists
Known for his stellar crossing ability and in terms of goals. Creative winger combined with exceptional physical strong and good in defensive duty, also operate as central midfielder in his late career. Michel totally scored 128 goals for Real Madrid and is one of the club's legends. According to Ballon D'or ranking, he is the greatest European winger twice times.

B2B BREMNER (73)- 1970 FWA Footballer Of The Year-Ballon D'or 1973: 5th place (best defensive/central midfielder!) - Leeds: 115 goals/772 games
He is the greatest player in the history of Leeds United club (see statue outside the South East corner of Elland Road). He's an uncompromising player, tough in the tackle and often going beyond the rules to get the better of a skilled opponent. He had a stamina to work from one end of the pitch to the other and could pass with precision and timing. Extraordinary ability to score crucial goals in the biggest games. Leeds...Leeds...Leeds....the most hated club in Britain in the late '60s and early '70s.

B2B SIMEONE (96)- Liga 95/96 Winner with Atletico Madrid (12 goals/45 games) - Argentina 11 goals/106 games
Tenacious, versatile, hard-working, and complete two-way midfielder, who was mobile, good in the air, and capable both of winning balls and starting attacking plays, also having a penchant for scoring several goals himself; this enabled him to play anywhere in midfield throughout his career, although he was usually deployed in the centre in a box-to-box or defensive midfield role. A talented yet combative player, he was primarily known for his leadership, tactical versatility, intelligence, strength, and stamina, although he was also praised by pundits for his technique, vision and passing range. Style? "holding a knife between his teeth".

Attacking LB PEARCE (90)- WC 90 SF with England - England 5 goals/78 games
He had a fantastic workrate, was defensively secure and could also providing some attacking emphasis down the left hand side and have some cracking shots at goal.
He's also a renown hard tackler, had a decent cross, consistent and had great conditioning.
He was given the affectionate nickname of "Psycho" for his unforgiving style of play and his great devotion shown while playing the game.

LCB EMELYN HUGHES (77)- 1977 FWA Footballer Of The Year - European Cup (2): 76–77, 77–78
He was the first Liverpool captain to lift the European Cup, a fact which alone would earn him a place in any Anfield hall of fame. His contribution to the club during the Shankly and Paisley eras went far beyond that unforgettable night in Rome, however. With a beaming smile and boundless enthusiasm, Hughes is one of the most popular players ever to wear a Liver bird on his chest. Never-say-die attitude, galloping forays into opposition territory and frantic goal celebrations. No wonder they called him 'Crazy Horse'. For whether it was at left-back, in midfield or at the heart of defence, where he eventually settled, Hughes could be relied upon to run through brick walls for the Liverpool cause.

RCB VIDIC - PFA Premier League Team of the Year (4): 06–07, 07–08, 08–09, 10–11
United Quality Player, no?

Offensive RB NEAL (77)- European Cup (4): 76–77, 77–78, 80-81, 83-84- 77 goals in his career including 5 goals with England (50 caps)
One of the most-decorated players in English football history (23 medals). Phil Neal will be remembered as one of the most consistent right backs Liverpool has ever had on its books. He served the club for over ten years and won four european cup winning medals in his time.

GK SOUTHALL (85) - The Greatest Welsh GK - 1985 FWA Footballer Of The Year - PFA team of the year 4 times - Top 5 IFFHS world best goalkeeper twice - Wales 92 Games (32 Clean Sheets)
One of the best goalkeepers in the World during the second half 1980s, he joined Everton in 1981 and went on to make a club record of 750 games all competitions, was an indispensable player for Everton in their golden era, most notable in 1985 when he much impacted on his club to win English top division title, Cup Winners' Cup and lost in FA Cup final match. Unfortunately, the suspension of English club in European competitions was happened in his prime year.

SPECIAL TACTICAL MANOEUVRES



PIRES EXTREMELY MOBILE TO SUPPORT THE TEAM AND THE SUN (THE SAME FOR Michel WHO CAN OPERATE ON THE LEFT)





NOW YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO UNDERSTAND THAT TEAM WILL PLAY IN A UNITED WAY


 
  • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
  • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.

good luck @Pat_Mustard @Downcast @MJJ @Arbitrium
 
WHAT DOES CANTONA EXPECT FROM A RIGHT-WINGER?






THE SPANISH ANSWER PROVIDED IS MICHEL: IN THE TEAM PRESENTATON >>> VIDEO ABOVE
 
@Downcast that's probably the most arrows I've seen in formation up to date :D

Love Cantona being part of a draft/any draft really. He is very often overlooked for my liking.

Awesome work with the OP.
 
I will come back later.

Raul is a very interesting player who offers a lot of tactical options. One of the debates would be: who is the Best Raul? Or the Raul you like the most?

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-------------------- 1998------------------------------------------ 2002---------------------------------------- 2004/05


Happy to know more about this Spanish icon!
 
@Downcast that's probably the most arrows I've seen in formation up to date :D

Love Cantona being part of a draft/any draft really. He is very often overlooked for my liking.

Awesome work with the OP.

Cheers.

I've really discovered Mark Hughes, what a lovely player :drool:

I will come back end of afternoon.
 
Awesome work Downcast. I watched some Cantona vids recently and was reminded why I loved him as a child. My favourite is is nearly goal when he hits the bar after controlling it on his thigh, kicking it up and lobbing the keeper. With respect to Raul there isn't much difference between his role with Ronaldo and Morientes. His form was better with Morientes IMO but he looks fine in this set-up although I'll have to think about it more.

I'm not sure why you picked Pires as he was a very different player to the early Giggs. Since you have him I'd have preferred a better attacking LB instead of Pearce to allow Pires to drift in a little more - he was really a wide playmaker.
 
I've unexpectedly got loads on later so I'm not going to be online much for chunks of this game so I'll make a few posts now. First thought is that its a strange twist that Bremner and Giles rarely feature in drafts and now they're facing off with each other :D

Raul is another story: I consider him as a Pharaoh who reached his peak at the top of a Pyramid...

I'm assuming you mean that Raul is better in a diamond behind two strikers? What makes you think he's better there than in my formation? The closest he came to the Ballon d'Or was his second place finish in 2001 when he probably deserved to win it ahead of Michael Owen. Real's formation that year was something like:

43704.png


Then when Morientes got injured he played right up front with Guti coming into the team. As good as he was behind Suker and Mijatovic, he had too many traits of a proper striker for me to want to play him in that primarily creator role. Rewatching Utd vs Real from 2003 it was striking how often Raul played right on the shoulder of the last defender, with Ronaldo in turn dropping deeper, and he was absolutely lethal in that first leg.
 
Great choice by the committee for these two star men - both rarely get a proper outing in the all-time fare.

I will come back later.

Raul is a very interesting player who offers a lot of tactical options. One of the debates would be: who is the Best Raul? Or the Raul you like the most?

One of the beauties of Raul is his flexibility in a number of set-ups. His best strike partnership was with Morientes, but he likes clever movement and technical ability around him, so I see him dovetailing well with Careca.
 
So Gemmell is to play a conservative role as traditional British full back? I am not familiar with him but I notice this on Wiki is interesting comment "Ironically, Gemmell should not have been in position to score the goal, as he had ignored team orders for one full-back to stay in defence at all times."
 
A few clips of Giles, as he was the member of the supporting cast I most enjoyed researching.

From Leeds' 7-0 evisceration of Southampton, one of the best domestic performances I've seen from an English team. There's extended highlights on youtube (about half an hour) if anyone wants me to post them here.




fecking rabona pass in the middle of a display of tiki-taka at Elland Road in the 70s :lol:



Nice pre-assist in Leeds' 5-1 beating of a Utd team containing Charlton and Best:



and another pre-assist from that game



Scholes-esque cross-field pass with his 'weak' foot



He'd give Raul a great platform here with his defensive nous and moreso his ability to run a game. Also, given his oft-stated contempt for limited holding players like Mascherano, he'd enjoy being partnered with a well-rounded player like Haan.
 
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So Gemmell is to play a conservative role as traditional British full back? I am not familiar with him but I notice this on Wiki is interesting comment "Ironically, Gemmell should not have been in position to score the goal, as he had ignored team orders for one full-back to stay in defence at all times."

No, I remember rebuking Edgar in a draft ages ago for telling Gemmell to play conservatively as he was so good at rampaging forward. He's playing his normal balanced role here. The arrow on Beszonov is to indicate that he has additional responsibilities to provide attacking width. Hassler was great in wide areas but we'll want him stepping infield too to contribute to the midfield.
 
Is this
NO BETTER CHOICE THAN PIRES TO REPLACE GIGGS
a given? Because it seems a bit odd to me, especially when in the next sentence you're saying how right-footed Cantona benefited from Giggs' crosses. You do know that Pires was right-footed too? And much more eager to cut in to score himself

edit: okay, there is a big post about it, I'll read it now. Yeah, the constant comparisons with Giggs are still quite odd. Not to say that Pires isn't a great choice for a LM in 4-4-2, he is. But a very different player.
 
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So Gemmell is to play a conservative role as traditional British full back? I am not familiar with him but I notice this on Wiki is interesting comment "Ironically, Gemmell should not have been in position to score the goal, as he had ignored team orders for one full-back to stay in defence at all times."
Yeah he was a good all-rounder. In that game Inter ended up parked on their own box for 80 minutes. Celtic had something like 42 shots on goal and there was no point in keeping the full-backs in the defensive line.
 
Is this a given? Because it seems a bit odd to me, especially when in the next sentence you're saying how right-footed Cantona benefited from Giggs' crosses. You do know that Pires was right-footed too? And much more eager to cut in to score himself

edit: okay, there is a big post about it, I'll read it now. Yeah, the constant comparisons with Giggs are still quite odd. Not to say that Pires isn't a great choice for a LM in 4-4-2, he is. But a very different player.

My only real criticism of the opposition team is the choice of wingers given that the team is based on Utd 1993/94. As said by you and others, Giggs and Pires are very different in style, and I'm also unsure about Michel for Kanchelskis. Michel had the better delivery and was the better player overall IMO, but Kanchelskis was much faster. In general, that attack lacks the electric pace of that Utd team. That speed was crucial to their famous blistering counter attacks, and important in getting the best out of Cantona IMO.
 
My only real criticism of the opposition team is the choice of wingers given that the team is based on Utd 1993/94. As said by you and others, Giggs and Pires are very different in style, and I'm also unsure about Michel for Kanchelskis. Michel had the better delivery and was the better player overall IMO, but Kanchelskis was much faster. In general, that attack lacks the electric pace of that Utd team. That speed was crucial to their famous blistering counter attacks, and important in getting the best out of Cantona IMO.
Yeah. At first glance, I thought Michel was Beckham to be honest, with their exceptional crossing, set-piece delivery and work rate.
 
My only real criticism of the opposition team is the choice of wingers given that the team is based on Utd 1993/94.

Yeah, I've written the term 'inspiration' but also... the 'Franco-Spanish flair'.

As said by you and others, Giggs and Pires are very different in style, and I'm also unsure about Michel for Kanchelskis. Michel had the better delivery and was the better player overall IMO, but Kanchelskis was much faster.

If you want me to do so, I could explain why I think Hassler isn't Figo and why Careca isn't similar to Morientes...

Kanchelskis was faster but Michel was a better player on the whole.

Every neutral is free to watch the video about Michel and assess his level but I don't see why it won't work.
 
I explain in details my reasoning and choices so that the readers have the tools to form an opinion.

The idea is mainly to generate some discussions and attract interest.
 
Two great articles on Raul, with the first one having tonnes of video links to various goals:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-goal-raul-for-real-madrid-v-ferencvaros-1995

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/nov/13/raul-retires-new-york-cosmos-real-madrid-spain
From the Steinberg article:

When Bayern Munich beat Borussia Dortmund 5-1 last month, Thomas Müller was anonymous for 25 minutes. Ten minutes later, he had scored twice. It would be interesting to know if modern football’s ultimate space investigator has studied and based any of his game on Raúl.

Luis Enrique runs down the left. Raúl is not in the picture. He twists one way. Raúl is not in the picture. He twists the other way. Raúl is not in the picture. He crosses. Raúl is not in the picture. The ball reaches the far post. Raúl is not in the picture. It is headed back into the middle. Still no Raúl. But then it is cushioned back and … here he is! An urgent little sprint and his marker is left eating dust. Raúl opens up his body, then he opens up his left foot, then he sidefoots the ball under the Ferencvaros goalkeeper. He materialises, he scores, ruthlessness personified. Shoot first, ask questions later, Madrid’s very own Raylan Givens

That's partly why we prefer him up front - he has licence to drift, to go AWOL at times to search for openings, ratherthan always having to be available for the immediate pass. Here he's got teammates to assume the playmaking mantle, exhilarating dribblers like Barnes and Hassler to preoccupy defenders and create chances, and a livewire striker in Careca to occupy the CBs.
 
Yeah, I've written the term 'inspiration' but also... the 'Franco-Spanish flair'.

If you want me to do so, I could explain why I think Hassler isn't Figo and why Careca isn't similar to Morientes...

Kanchelskis was faster but Michel was a better player on the whole.

Every neutral is free to watch the video about Michel and assess his level but I don't see why it won't work.

That's exactly what I said. Yeah, explain why Careca is a poor fit for the Morientes role if you want. I've already said in my OP why there's zero point explaining why you think Hassler isn't Figo. He isn't Zidane either, but the similarities in team shape are there.

The overall set up is somewhat similar to a mirrored version of Real ~2003, with Hassler as Zidane, with a rampaging full back providing alot of width on that side (Beszonov for Roberto Carlos). Barnes takes the Figo role, we field two solid CMs, and then Raul plays off a main striker.

Raul as a second striker like here? (Real Madrid 2005 is hard to assess: Raul only scored 13 goals in 43 games)

Why on earth would you take past his peak 2005 Raul as an example, when he played in a 4-4-1-1 for much of his peak between 1999-2003?

One of his career-bast performances vs Utd in 2003, when he scored twice:

http://footballia.net/matches/real-madrid-manchester-united-champions-league

Looks very much like a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 to me, with Raul and Ronaldo up front, Figo as a right winger and Zidane as a left-sided midfielder cutting in.

But yeah, lets talk about 2005 Raul instead when his form had nose-dived. Add that to this 'fake news' shite you were banging on about in the main thread...
 
My only real criticism of the opposition team is the choice of wingers given that the team is based on Utd 1993/94. As said by you and others, Giggs and Pires are very different in style, and I'm also unsure about Michel for Kanchelskis. Michel had the better delivery and was the better player overall IMO, but Kanchelskis was much faster. In general, that attack lacks the electric pace of that Utd team. That speed was crucial to their famous blistering counter attacks, and important in getting the best out of Cantona IMO.
93/94 United is my favourite United team ever - I even started a thread about it once (let's just say the world/Caf didn't agree with my opinion :lol:).

I agree it had speed when needed (Norwich away obvious example) but I wouldn't say the pace of attack was key to getting the best out of Cantona, which is the aim of this draft/match? He scored all types of goals and Michel/Pires aren't snails? Beckham started in 95 and Eric still scored a decent amount that season and next (19, 15).

(Edit... I think the key is for the others to do the legwork and let Eric do what Eric did best. That's what Ferguson wanted.)
 
93/94 United is my favourite United team ever - I even started a thread about it once (let's just say the world/Caf didn't agree with my opinion :lol:).

I agree it had speed when needed (Norwich away obvious example) but I wouldn't say the pace of attack was key to getting the best out of Cantona, which is the aim of this draft/match? He scored all types of goals and Michel/Pires aren't snails? Beckham started in 95 and Eric still scored a decent amount that season and next (19, 15).

(Edit... I think the key is for the others to do the legwork and let Eric do what Eric did best. That's what Ferguson wanted.)

I don't think it was the best Utd team but it was quite possibly my favourite too, and even my mild dislike of Parker, Ince and Hughes since they left the club can't dull that :lol:. Bare in mind that when Beckham came in for Kanchelskis we'd also swapped out Hughes for Cole, so westill maintained a fair level of pace in the team albeit in different positions. I do think that Cantona benefitted enormously from having speed and width in the other attacking positions, as aside from creating chances for him they provided tremendous options to display his own brilliant passing, and created pockets of space for him to exploit by stretching the play.

Michel never struck me as particularly quick but Pires had underrated acceleration IMO. They're not disastrous choices by any means but given these statements from the OP

MANCHESTER UNITED 1993/94 IS OUR MAIN INSPIRATION FROM AN IDEOLOGICAL/TACTICAL STANDPOINT TO MAKE THE KING HAPPY <> THE MOST EXCITING/ENTERTAINING UNITED SIDE OF THE LAST 20 YEARS?

Strong in counter-attacking

NO BETTER CHOICE THAN PIRES TO REPLACE GIGGS

If you watch all the goals scored by Cantona, you would see that he scored more goals thanks to Giggs than to any other players. As you know, Giggs is the #1 provider of assists in the history of the EPL. Another explanation is that Cantona was a right-footed player so it was easier for him to have the right body position and exploit the crosses of Ryan.

MICHEL IS THE SPANISH KANCHELSKIS

they don't seem like ideal fits either.
 
@Pat_Mustard

I don't know if it's voluntary or not, but you tend to misrepresent what I've written.

I have never written that Careca was 'a poor fit'.

I have never written that you have opted for a Raul version 2005 (on the contrary, I wrote 'RM 2005 is hard to assess' because one of the pictures posted was about RM 2005).
 
@Pat_Mustard

I don't know if it's voluntary or not, but you tend to misrepresent what I've written.

I have never written that Careca was 'a poor fit'.

I have never written that you have opted for a Raul version 2005 (on the contrary, I wrote 'RM 2005 is hard to assess' because one of the pictures posted was about RM 2005).

I might misinterpret you but I'm certainly not intentionally misrepresenting you. You seem to get arsey and highly defensive at any criticism of your team in this and our previous match, so I'm responding in kind, mostly as I'm in a bad mood and couldn't really be bothered playing this at all today.

I've got stuff to do now but I should be online later to answer any questions that pop up. Hopefully I'll be in a better mood :D
 
This one against Nottingham? :)



:drool: Yep, that's the one

That England team is a bit strange. Platt and Gascoigne in a midfield two. That said with respect to to Pearce it would make sense he was more attacking as Beardsley would cut in so maybe it will work with Pires.
 
I might misinterpret you but I'm certainly not intentionally misrepresenting you. You seem to get arsey and highly defensive at any criticism of your team in this and our previous match, so I'm responding in kind, mostly as I'm in a bad mood and couldn't really be bothered playing this at all today.

I've got stuff to do now but I should be online later to answer any questions that pop up. Hopefully I'll be in a better mood :D

No, just disappointed by the discussion.
 
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I'm not too excited about either effort.

Interesting that on paper the easiest way should be a setup the player revelled in. Instead we find the most valid criticisms are what hasn't been replicated well (e.g. the pace and directness of Cantona's United). And so far the remakes I've found more interesting actually redeploy the player in a new setup.

I think Pat should have done that with Raúl, a 3-5-2 could have been brilliant, while instead I'm unconvinced by his midfield or Barnes limiting how much Raúl can bring out his whole repertoire.
 
What kind of player was Butragueno? From what I see he had a good finish, but was playing as SS to Hugo Sanchez who was the primary scorer of La Qunita del Buitre. I presume he's similar to Raul. Is he a good fit to lead the line?

Good question.

My 1st pick was Kluivert but I have decided to give up this option because he wasn't enough mobile/collective.

The idea wasn't to have a CF who stays in or near the penalty but to have a mobile forward.

Butrageno isn't fast or a specialist, but a smart player who know to in the right place at the right time.

I will come back tomorrow
 
2. THE SUN CANTONA NEEDS VERY MOBILE PLAYERS AROUND HIM TO SHINE

FPKJyvm.gif


Raul is another story: I consider him as a Pharaoh who reached his peak at the top of a Pyramid...
:lol::confused::lol: this has to be the most random writeup tidbit in the history of drafting.
 
I think Pat should have done that with Raúl, a 3-5-2 could have been brilliant, while instead I'm unconvinced by his midfield or Barnes limiting how much Raúl can bring out his whole repertoire.

That was one of many formations Raul played in for Real so it was pretty tough to come up with anything new for him. He wasn't particularly suited to a 4-3-3 with wingers, nor did I really fancy him as a false 9, although he could have done that well enough.

The Barnes/Raul connection is actually one of my favourite parts of the team. I think I just rate Barnes higher than most but I see them having a similar dynamic to Barnes/Beardsley, with Raul offering more thrust and goal threat than the Geordie. Barnes seems to be pigeonholed at times as a head down, rush for the byline type of winger which does him an injustice. In fact, England trying to deploy him in that way is one of the big factors in his inconsistency for the national team. His vision, awareness and short passing game was brilliant.

I've posted this video before but its always worth a rewatch



Even in the first little segment:

https://streamable.com/1r5rg

For me Raul would lap up those flicks and quick give and gos, and thrive in the space Barnes creates.

Insofar as I really had any concept for the team beyond creating something I liked that suited Raul, it was the thought that Raul would have torn the Premier League up had we somehow been able to sign him in 1997 as Cantona's replacement. That got me thinking of British/Irish players that could operate on Raul's level in terms of speed of thought and technique, and that's why Barnes and Giles were on my wish list so early.

Watching some of that Liverpool 1988 team (feel dirty saying this) and the 1970s Leeds team does make me think that as agricultural as the British game was in general, there was still some fantastic and underrated quality there at times.

A wee bit on Giles from this fantastic article:

"I don't mind if someone says to me: 'You were a dirty little bastard.' I don't mind that. But please say: 'You could play a bit.' Same with the Leeds team. I wouldn't mind if they said: 'You were a dirty set of bastards, but you couldn't half play.'"

To reduce Giles's career to a seminar on brutality would be to obscure his talent as a central midfield orchestrator: the more gifted half of a formidable double-act with Billy Bremner. After coming from Dublin to Manchester United as a boy, Giles found his greatest motivation in rejection after Matt Busby, he claims, lost faith in him during a game between United and Tottenham Hotspur.

Giles, 21, was overwhelmed by the Spurs trio of Danny Blanchflower, John White and Dave Mackay and never recovered, in Busby's eyes. He was sold to Leeds in 1963 and stayed until 1975 before a spell as player-manager of West Brom and managerial stints with the Republic of Ireland (1973-80), West Brom (again), Shamrock Rovers and Vancouver Whitecaps.

He was 25 before he came in from the flanks to claim the central midfield role he had coveted since watching Johnny Haynes redefine the job of inside-forward for Fulham. Haynes rewrote the rules on positional discipline by roving around the pitch to dictate the play. Asked if there is a Haynes or John Giles out there today, Giles says: "Only one. Paul Scholes."
 
There needs to be a serious limit on the amount of posting by OPs. It's not difficult to stick to the format given, is it?

Additional information can be given as and when asked by the voters. I'm one of the new posters but I find the tons of videos quite distracting, especially when I can find a lot of them myself or when they are of United legends.

:lol::confused::lol: this has to be the most random writeup tidbit in the history of drafting.

He's high as feck. Got to be.
 
There needs to be a serious limit on the amount of posting by OPs. It's not difficult to stick to the format given, is it?

Additional information can be given as and when asked by the voters. I'm one of the new posters but I find the tons of videos quite distracting, especially when I can find a lot of them myself or when they are of United legends.



He's high as feck. Got to be.

Do you mean in the initial writeup or throughout the thread? I'm a big fan of videos during the thread, although they should be spoilered which I've failed to do myself in fairness. As far as the initial write up goes, I agree that they should be kept somewhat brief.