Our lack of possession

KeanoMagicHat

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In the six games so far this season, we have had significantly more possession than the other team only once. Although we have not had the easiest fixtures, WhoScored rates United as having the 10th most possession in the league at under 50% behind Fulham. Chelsea an outlier aside, the other top 6 teams for possession are unsurprisingly also the top 5 in the league table.

51% possession at home to Wolves - you would expect this to be 60% given the team's standings (Liverpool had 66%).
44% possession against Spurs - away from home but you'd expect to match them and gave the ball away too easily.
67% possession against Forest - just because they sat back and were 2-0 down, in the first half I imagine it wasn't that.
45% possession against Arsenal - again away from home, would hardly expect to dominate, but another 5% possession might have held Arsenal off.
43% possession against Brighton - even if De Zerbi likes possession, that's what Ten Hag was supposed to be when he arrived and United are at home chasing the game.
40% possession against Bayern Munich - another tough game but could be better considering we were supposed to be chasing the game.

When Ten Hag arrived, I feel he was heavily marketed as a possession-based manager but it simply isn't happening. And if we're a counter attacking team, then should we have players like Onana and Martinez that are better suited to possession? Are there too many players in the team that ruin a team's chance of keeping possession (Bruno's risky passes for example)? For a team with less possession to work you need pace and dynamism or a defensive and physical set-up (which has been lacking also). Is it Ten Hag's instructions or are the players not good enough? Whatever way it seem to be killing us atm as the stats back up what the eye sees that we cannot control a game to save our lives.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
When Ten Hag arrived, I feel he was heavily marketed as a possession-based manager but it simply isn't happening.
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Was he? His Ajax teams played very quick vertical football from what I remember.
 
Look no further than our midfielders. In the first two games, we combined them with both Rashford and Garnacho which should never happen really from the start.
 
ETH does care cos if he did he would go buy a player to help run the team in possession.
 
Solius said:
Was he? His Ajax teams played very quick vertical football from what I remember.
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Ajax and Barca are the two clubs everyone associates with possession based football since Cruyff's days. I think many people just didn't look close enough and assumed EtH would play the typical Ajax style, despite in fact playing a more direct style than usual at that club.
 
Solius said:
Was he? His Ajax teams played very quick vertical football from what I remember.
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Fair enough, maybe it was the assumption from Ajax and their dominant style of play and results. But for example last season United actually had less average possession than one of Ole's seasons and Ole was criticised for not controlling the games enough.
 
I get what you mean to be honest. There does seem to be a contradiction at times which you've pointed out.

That being said, it is concerning the lack of control we have in games at times. You can tell when it's going to happen. There always seems to be a period in our games where we can't even get the ball off the other team. It was happening against Wolves, Brighton and yesterday vs Munich. And then when we get the ball, we can barely hold it for 10 seconds.

How much of that is technical quality and how much of that is down to the tactical set up, answer usually in the middle.
 
His stated aim is to make us a top transition team (rather than a Guardiola style possession side). His Ajax side did dominate the ball, but that fits with Ajax's history and philosophy and EtH modified their play to do service to that tradition. United have never historically played that way and EtH is ultimately a more of a pragmatist than people assumed prior to his arrival.
 
RedStarUnited said:
ETH does care cos if he did he would go buy a player to help run the team in possession.
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Yep. He had a chance to make a statement signing in central midfield and his key target ended up being a counter-pressing no.10 to play more transition based football.

Hag unfortunately was a passer-by at Ajax in their philosophy and I would imagine his time at Utrecht (and us) would be more reflective of his style.
 
Natural consequence of having the likes of Casemiro and Bruno as first choice midfielders.
 
Infra-red said:
His stated aim is to make us a top transition team (rather than a Guardiola style possession side). His Ajax side did dominate the ball, but that fits with Ajax's history and philosophy and EtH modified their play to do service to that tradition. United have never historically played that way and EtH is ultimately a more of a pragmatist that people assumed prior to his arrival.
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This isn’t the 2000s anymore
 
I call our midfield the "Hot potato" midfield, because everyone in it treats the ball like it(Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro). Everyone is trying to release the ball as soon as possible like it is lava hot, poisoned, I don't know. Especially Bruno. There is no ball retention, ball carrying, press resistance, ability to evade pressure whatsoever in our current midfield and I'm going to continue to criticize that over and over and over again into oblivion.

That's why we can't control games, and we struggle to keep possession of the ball. We play like a midtable/relegation fodder team.
Why Ten Hag gave up on Frenkie de Jong type of a player(Nunes, Gravenberch, Kovacic, Kone, Thuram(from Nice)...), kept Bruno and brought old Casemiro and Eriksen(no legs anymore) - I don't understand, I'm really puzzled by it.

It will be ETH's undoing, main reason for it(not counting the Glazers and all the catastrophe that they bring here with their incompetence/greed).
 
Yesterday and most games this season, we've not held the ball at the right times and that is on the captain - those little flicks or pump up field are a problem.

We got a new keeper so we'd have a defensive passing triangle and the ability to keep the ball, yet it gets to the middle then just hit and hope.

Spent most of yesterday's game shouting: keep the ball and keep the fecker on the ground.

Weird thing is, there are videos of EtH saying this in training - on the ground, quick to feet.

Zombie passing is needed at times and we used to do it under SAF
 
Infra-red said:
His stated aim is to make us a top transition team (rather than a Guardiola style possession side). His Ajax side did dominate the ball, but that fits with Ajax's history and philosophy and EtH modified their play to do service to that tradition. United have never historically played that way and EtH is ultimately a more of a pragmatist than people assumed prior to his arrival.
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I wouldn't mind that if it was working but 14 goals conceded already, I don't know if we have the players to concede possession as much as we have. Can be a pragmatist in possession too which is what Van Gaal was and took the sting out of games at times.

If you're not going to keep the ball, it helps to be:

1) mad pressers in the attacking half, super quick transitions - Rashford barely presses and we're below average at that in the league I imagine
2) sit back and soak up the pressure with physical players, play defensively and rely on quick forwards in attack - again we don't really sit back either and lack physicality and pace.

We seem caught between styles and player profiles on the pitch, leading to this mess so far this season.
 
philippexyz said:
I call our midfield the "Hot potato" midfield, because everyone in it treats the ball like it(Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro). Everyone is trying to release the ball as soon as possible like it is lava hot, poisoned, I don't know. Especially Bruno. There is no ball retention, ball carrying, press resistance, ability to evade pressure whatsoever in our current midfield and I'm going to continue to criticize that over and over and over again into oblivion.

That's why we can't control games, and we struggle to keep possession of the ball. We play like a midtable/relegation fodder team.
Why Ten Hag gave up on Frenkie de Jong type of a player(Nunes, Gravenberch, Kovacic, Kone, Thuram(from Nice)...), kept Bruno and brought old Casemiro and Eriksen(no legs anymore) - I don't understand, I'm really puzzled by it.

It will be ETH's undoing, main reason for it(not counting the Glazers and all the catastrophe that they bring here with their incompetence/greed).
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Sometimes you do need that urgency especially in a 'transition side' which ETH wants but yes I do agree with most of what you said. I think Bruno does contribute to it a lot. There are times when the game needs to slow down and he'll hit a crazy shot that's not needed or smack it up the field for Rashford to try and run onto.
 
philippexyz said:
I call our midfield the "Hot potato" midfield, because everyone in it treats the ball like it(Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro). Everyone is trying to release the ball as soon as possible like it is lava hot, poisoned, I don't know. Especially Bruno. There is no ball retention, ball carrying, press resistance, ability to evade pressure whatsoever in our current midfield and I'm going to continue to criticize that over and over and over again into oblivion.

That's why we can't control games, and we struggle to keep possession of the ball. We play like a midtable/relegation fodder team.
Why Ten Hag gave up on Frenkie de Jong type of a player(Nunes, Gravenberch, Kovacic, Kone, Thuram(from Nice)...), kept Bruno and brought old Casemiro and Eriksen(no legs anymore) - I don't understand, I'm really puzzled by it.

It will be ETH's undoing, main reason for it(not counting the Glazers and all the catastrophe that they bring here with their incompetence/greed).
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You forgot Mount. It was clear last season we needed to start getting midfielders that can keep the ball then we went and got Mount. Recruitment for midfield has been rubbish. We are the only top team that doesn’t have midfielders that can keep the ball
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
I feel he was heavily marketed as a possession-based manager
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It was just an assumption by people that looked at Ajax's possession stats and said "yeah he is a possession based manager" whilst actually ignoring how they played. Just because his Ajax team had majority of possession doesn't make him a possession orientated manager. Yes they dominated games, but not in a possession based manor like say Pep or LvG.
 
M16Red said:
Yesterday and most games this season, we've not held the ball at the right times and that is on the captain - those little flicks or pump up field are a problem.

We got a new keeper so we'd have a defensive passing triangle and the ability to keep the ball, yet it gets to the middle then just hit and hope.

Spent most of yesterday's game shouting: keep the ball and keep the fecker on the ground.

Weird thing is, there are videos of EtH saying this in training - on the ground, quick to feet.

Zombie passing is needed at times and we used to do it under SAF
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Very infuriating. These are moves that are hard to pull off and we try them all the time. Bruno is especially guilty of those unnecessary flicks
 
Players in possession often lack options because those around them are too static and don't show for the ball. This doesn't happen all the time in every match, but there are long periods where it does.

Reminds me a lot of England under Capello, Hodgson (and even Southgate when they're not on it). Decent players but they look disinterested/unmotivated. Subsequently, we lose the ball and guess what... runners fail to track back etc (because it's too much effort) and we get dominated.

I know we're had some bad luck this season, especially with injuries and disallowed goals, but I still expect a top EPL team to do the basics and put a shift in. Then again, we're really not a top EPL team because we do none of these things.
 
Ajax under ETH weren't a possession based team, but they were really good at recycling the ball and didn't lose it unnecessarily. They had De Jong in the middle of the park after all.
 
For all the whining about our forwards, Onana and defenders, the main problem with our team at the moment is clearly our midfield. It’s the reason why we struggle to impose ourself on games, and why teams can just stroll right down the middle of the pitch unchallenged, and also why we concede so many cutback goals. Casemiro and Eriksen can’t hack it at this level any more, which is leaving gaping hole in our team.

Maybe things will improve once Mount is back and Amrabat is introduced. Hannibal probably deserves a chance too - not sure how we can make things worse.
 
Eric_the_Red99 said:
Maybe things will improve once Mount is back and Amrabat is introduced. Hannibal probably deserves a chance too - not sure how we can make things worse.
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I don't think we will see Erikson and Casemiro together once Mount and/or Amrabat are back. I'd quiet like to see how the trio of Mount-Amrabat-Bruno works out to be honest.
 
It was 69% in the first half vs Forrest. We aren't a possession based side. We have elements of it that's why it's never a blow out in terms of possession. And in big games it's rarely a blowout anyway.
 
I don't mind not having possession, I didn't want EtH because he was a possession based manager.I thought he'd make us look like a team. Just like other top clubs whose players seem to be in sync all the time, they all play as if they know what their teammates are going to do. That's what I thought EtH would drill into our team. We could play like Atletico or Inter for all I care, even though these teams are defensive, they do it right, their players are in sync and do everything effortlessly. The fact that we are still looking like Ole's team is what seriously concerns me.
 
I want possession based football but I'm not the DOF, if we even have one. If I was I'd be looking to move on from ETH despite results last season.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
In the six games so far this season, we have had significantly more possession than the other team only once. Although we have not had the easiest fixtures, WhoScored rates United as having the 10th most possession in the league at under 50% behind Fulham. Chelsea an outlier aside, the other top 6 teams for possession are unsurprisingly also the top 5 in the league table.

51% possession at home to Wolves - you would expect this to be 60% given the team's standings (Liverpool had 66%).
44% possession against Spurs - away from home but you'd expect to match them and gave the ball away too easily.
67% possession against Forest - just because they sat back and were 2-0 down, in the first half I imagine it wasn't that.
45% possession against Arsenal - again away from home, would hardly expect to dominate, but another 5% possession might have held Arsenal off.
43% possession against Brighton - even if De Zerbi likes possession, that's what Ten Hag was supposed to be when he arrived and United are at home chasing the game.
40% possession against Bayern Munich - another tough game but could be better considering we were supposed to be chasing the game.

When Ten Hag arrived, I feel he was heavily marketed as a possession-based manager but it simply isn't happening. And if we're a counter attacking team, then should we have players like Onana and Martinez that are better suited to possession? Are there too many players in the team that ruin a team's chance of keeping possession (Bruno's risky passes for example)? For a team with less possession to work you need pace and dynamism or a defensive and physical set-up (which has been lacking also). Is it Ten Hag's instructions or are the players not good enough? Whatever way it seem to be killing us atm as the stats back up what the eye sees that we cannot control a game to save our lives.
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Yeah I think this is exactly what you said, he was "marketed" as possession-focused manager but it doesn't seem to be the case. He brought some players that could help becoming a possession-oriented team (Onana, Amrabat, Mount, Antony), but what we've seen so far is the team has been set to play ultra direct football, so it does create a very blurry picture of where we're heading.

Bruno has shown he can play it safe and keep possession last season, so he's not the biggest issue. IMO the number 1 problem is players don't move around the pitch to make themselves available for the ball in short-mid distance. I see Casemiro in the middle of the park, surrounded by opposition players and all our players are pushed forward. Of course he's going to go for a long/risky pass. Of course this is going to generate many defensive transitions. We're terrible at this (moving the ball through midfield the opposition in mid/low block).
 
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It's very ole like where we buy players for possession based football but still then proceed to play in a more direct way.

People can point to the United way but under fergie we still dominated 90% of our games
 
astracrazy said:
I don't think we will see Erikson and Casemiro together once Mount and/or Amrabat are back. I'd quiet like to see how the trio of Mount-Amrabat-Bruno works out to be honest.
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I agree. Tbh, Casemiro’s main value at the moment seems to be as a goal threat, particularly at set pieces, ie someone we can throw on as an extra attacker if we’re chasing a goal. As a DM, he’s less than useless right now.
 
Borys said:
I see Casemiro in the middle of the park, surrounded by opposition players and all our players are pushed forward.
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I wonder if he misses Kroos and Modric in such situations.
 
stefan92 said:
I wonder if he misses Kroos and Modric in such situations.
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This should be the starting point of how to make the best use of Casemiro. He's always been great in intercepting the ball and starting attacks, he really has an eye for that and decent pass. But he needs other players to progress the ball forward, maybe even hold to the ball for a moment in the middle. The way we are using him, he's going to look trash. Not that he's in particularly good form anyway.
 
Our ability to retain the ball is terrible, we can barely string 3 passes together at times. I’m hoping Amrabat will help improve us in this area.
 
ETH is more flexible from Ajax - I think generally good teams will dominate the all when they need to i.e. when they need a break or ti manage a game but unless he replaced Rashford and Bruno our only real goal threats when he arrived are transition players and we didn’t have a striker who could hold the ball up or link things because Tony is made of glass.
 
crossy1686 said:
Amrabat is going to have to work fecking miracles at this rate from what I'm seeing people are expecting from him.
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I’m not expecting him to be a miracle worker. I just think he possesses the attributes that we’re lacking in midfield and will provide a much better balance. He doesn’t even need to be world class, just being a decent to good level will help us massively because he has the qualities we’re currently missing.
 
Been saying this a lot in various different threads but I’m not sure you can read too much into our start to the season, especially the past 3 games. We just don’t have the personnel.

If we get all 12 players back, fit and firing and we still look wank then I’ll start to point some fingers at the manager, but literally nobody is getting a tune out of a team with one of his first choice back 4 and only one proper midfielder.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
I’m not expecting him to be a miracle worker. I just think he possesses the attributes that we’re lacking in midfield and will provide a much better balance. He doesn’t even need to be world class, just being a decent to good level will help us massively because he has the quality’s we’re missing.
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I'm not saying you are, I'm saying collectively. I've seen things like he's going to fix the defence and help Casemiro, the intensity, shielding of the ball, our lack of possession etc. Sure sounds like a world class player to me, weird that its only a £10m loan for a player of that quality though...
 
crossy1686 said:
I'm not saying you are, I'm saying collectively. I've seen things like he's going to fix the defence and help Casemiro, the intensity, shielding of the ball, our lack of possession etc. Sure sounds like a world class player to me, weird that its only a £10m loan for a player of that quality though...
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I guess we’ll find out soon enough. That’s if he ever makes it onto the pitch.
 
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