Our acadamy midfield

andersj

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On Saturday we played with two players at central midfield that made the steps from our acadamy, Gibson and O'Shea, against one of the best teams in the Premier League. Both are good players, but neither of them are rare talents, or fantastic footballers. But they was more than good enough for us to beat Arsenal.

This is not the first time we have seen Ferguson get great results with limited players in the center of the park. In the second part of 05/06 we played Giggs (who obviously is not a limited player, but at the time inconsistent and with little experience as a central midfielder) and O'Shea in central midfield. We had a great run in the league in -06, and we actually took more points from January than any other team in the Premier League. One important aspect of this was that Ronaldo and Rooney gave us the flair we needed. Especially Rooney had a fantastic season, often starting out wide. A good indication of how important our wide-players are for our attack. But thats not what I want to discuss in this thread.

Most of the fans in here are aware of the talents we have at our club, and most of us agree that it is a special crop of players. I might be biased, but I feel certain that the midfield we fielded against Liverpool on Sunday is the most talented we have seen at our club since -92 (feel free to correct me). I am convinced that Larnell Cole, Paul Pogba and Tunnicliffe are bigger talents than both Gibson and O'Shea ever was, and I've always liked both of them.

Cole do not get that much attention, but in my opinion he is a better "footballer" and a bigger talent than Tunnicliffe - but I realize that Tunnicliffe is a better, more influential player at the moment. I'm also aware that Tunnicliffes hunger and drive is rare, and that he might become a better player because of it, than players with more "football-talent" than himself. Talent can only take you so far. (At the same time, I do not intend to claim that Tunnicliffe is not a big talent, but I rate Cole highly).

Matt James seems like an exciting player, too. Probably a better talent than Gibson. I can also picture Ravel Morrison as a central midfielder in the future (if not, then what?). Tom Cleverley has already proved he has the talent to make it in the Premier League, IMO, but at Manchester United? Time will tell.

My point is, if O'Shea and Gibson are good enough against a team like Arsenal, we have a lot of players with enough talent to make it. Thats one game, but we have won a lot of games with O'Shea as a CM. And taking this further, if these players are good enough, how far are Pogba, Tunnicliffe or Cole from being good enough against a team like WBA?

It might be an indication of how much Ferguson expect from our center forwards and wide players, too. Nani, Valencia, Rooney and Berbatov are the "creators" in our team. How many attackers (wide or center forward) from our acadamy have made it during Fergusons era? (As a sidenote, players like Berbatov and Rooney have 40-50 passes each game - Torres and Drogba are close to 20.)

If the rest of the team is good enough, I am confident that some of our young midfielders are, too. In other words, quality players like Nani, Rooney and Berbatov will make it easier to give for instance Pogba or Morrison a break in a year or two. With players like these, we cant beat anyone. This takes pressure of our young players and might give us an opportunity to give them the experience they need at the highest level.

IMO, we need to bring in one more player with qualities like Nani, but I hope we don't buy more than one central midfielder this summer. If we don't bring in one, that might be a good thing and a sign for the future.
 
I agree that the current academy crop are incredibly promising, but it's just so difficult to predict who will make it at Utd., I've seen a lot of talented/hyped players come through the academy and end up moving on after failing to make that step.

Equally, players who never really stood out at those levels have been able to develop and to break into the first team squad... All of which is a crap way of saying, let's wait and see, but I will be very very disappointed if at least a couple of Pogba, Morrison, Cole, Lingard, Tunnicliffe, Norwood, Will Keane, King, Cofie etc. don't make it here.
 
andersj said:
On Saturday we played with two players at central midfield that made the steps from our acadamy, Gibson and O'Shea, against one of the best teams in the Premier League. Both are good players, but neither of them are rare talents, or fantastic footballers. But they was more than good enough for us to beat Arsenal.

This is not the first time we have seen Ferguson get great results with limited players in the center of the park. In the second part of 05/06 we played Giggs (who obviously is not a limited player, but at the time inconsistent and with little experience as a central midfielder) and O'Shea in central midfield. We had a great run in the league in -06, and we actually took more points from January than any other team in the Premier League. One important aspect of this was that Ronaldo and Rooney gave us the flair we needed. Especially Rooney had a fantastic season, often starting out wide. A good indication of how important our wide-players are for our attack. But thats not what I want to discuss in this thread.

Most of the fans in here are aware of the talents we have at our club, and most of us agree that it is a special crop of players. I might be biased, but I feel certain that the midfield we fielded against Liverpool on Sunday is the most talented we have seen at our club since -92 (feel free to correct me). I am convinced that Larnell Cole, Paul Pogba and Tunnicliffe are bigger talents than both Gibson and O'Shea ever was, and I've always liked both of them.

Cole do not get that much attention, but in my opinion he is a better "footballer" and a bigger talent than Tunnicliffe - but I realize that Tunnicliffe is a better, more influential player at the moment. I'm also aware that Tunnicliffes hunger and drive is rare, and that he might become a better player because of it, than players with more "football-talent" than himself. Talent can only take you so far. (At the same time, I do not intend to claim that Tunnicliffe is not a big talent, but I rate Cole highly).

Matt James seems like an exciting player, too. Probably a better talent than Gibson. I can also picture Ravel Morrison as a central midfielder in the future (if not, then what?). Tom Cleverley has already proved he has the talent to make it in the Premier League, IMO, but at Manchester United? Time will tell.

My point is, if O'Shea and Gibson are good enough against a team like Arsenal, we have a lot of players with enough talent to make it. Thats one game, but we have won a lot of games with O'Shea as a CM. And taking this further, if these players are good enough, how far are Pogba, Tunnicliffe or Cole from being good enough against a team like WBA?

It might be an indication of how much Ferguson expect from our center forwards and wide players, too. Nani, Valencia, Rooney and Berbatov are the "creators" in our team. How many attackers (wide or center forward) from our acadamy have made it during Fergusons era? (As a sidenote, players like Berbatov and Rooney have 40-50 passes each game - Torres and Drogba are close to 20.)

If the rest of the team is good enough, I am confident that some of our young midfielders are, too. In other words, quality players like Nani, Rooney and Berbatov will make it easier to give for instance Pogba or Morrison a break in a year or two. With players like these, we cant beat anyone. This takes pressure of our young players and might give us an opportunity to give them the experience they need at the highest level.

IMO, we need to bring in one more player with qualities like Nani, but I hope we don't buy more than one central midfielder this summer. If we don't bring in one, that might be a good thing and a sign for the future.
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you make some good points, although many in the cafe will moan and groan at last few lines.
Morrison is obviously a supreme talent, the rest are all very good and must stand a reasonable chance of making it at the top level. A year ago I thought Tunnicliffe would follow the path of many others I have seen at this level who wear the shirt with pride, give it 100% in every game but technical limitations stopped them getting to the top but he has really improved so much on that side of his game this season that now when i watch him I just wonder if we might just have a quality box to box player on our hands with the temperament and will to win of a Robson or keane.
 
SecondFig said:
I agree that the current academy crop are incredibly promising, but it's just so difficult to predict who will make it at Utd., I've seen a lot of talented/hyped players come through the academy and end up moving on after failing to make that step.

Equally, players who never really stood out at those levels have been able to develop and to break into the first team squad... All of which is a crap way of saying, let's wait and see, but I will be very very disappointed if at least a couple of Pogba, Morrison, Cole, Lingard, Tunnicliffe, Norwood, Will Keane, King, Cofie etc. don't make it here.
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I agree. We have seen great talents fail to make it at our club. But part of my argument is that we actually have not had that many talented cm. The biggest three the last decade (that has either made it or left) must be Jones, Gibson and Fletcher.

Players like F. Campbell, G. Rossi, Eagles, Richardson etc. looked like talented players, and we had high hopes for them. But we depend a lot on players in these positions in the field. We rely on them, and it was difficult to give players like these the experience they needed because of this. We demand a lot from them, too. Campbell (and Rossi certainly did) seemed like a better prospect than Gibson a couple of years ago, but it can seem like Ferguson feels more comfortable giving young cm games. Of course, we depend on our CMs too, but I cant see a player like O'Shea or Gibson playing in an attacking role for Manchester United.

The fact that our cm is weak also gives them an opportunity. A player like Shawcross was never going to get games with Rio, Vidic, Evans and Pique at the club. I guess its a more dangerous position too, to field young players in.
 
andersj said:
I agree. We have seen great talents fail to make it at our club. But part of my argument is that we actually have not had that many talented cm. The biggest three the last decade (that has either made it or left) must be Jones, Gibson and Fletcher.

Players like F. Campbell, G. Rossi, Eagles, Richardson etc. looked like talented players, and we had high hopes for them. But we depend a lot on players in these positions in the field. We rely on them, and it was difficult to give players like these the experience they needed because of this. We demand a lot from them, too. Campbell (and Rossi certainly did) seemed like a better prospect than Gibson a couple of years ago, but it can seem like Ferguson feels more comfortable giving young cm games. Of course, we depend on our CMs too, but I cant see a player like O'Shea or Gibson playing in an attacking role for Manchester United.

The fact that our cm is weak also gives them an opportunity. A player like Shawcross was never going to get games with Rio, Vidic, Evans and Pique at the club. I guess its a more dangerous position too, to field young players in.
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A very good point, so to with the imminent retiring of Scholes and Giggs (well, for players like Morrison anyway).

Generally, you're absolutely right, I'm just trying not to get too excited, because I really do rate some of our youngsters at the moment and I'll be very disappointed if a few of them don't make it
 
These are youth team players we are discussing. A few weeks back O'Shea played a game for the reserves and he looked like Messi, Ronaldo and Maradona combined. The gap is so great it's practically very difficult to make predictions about the future of these players - especially at United.

They will definitely make a career as professional footballers. That's a given.
 
I think part of the problem is that we don't have a 'midfield general' who controls the game in the first team.

For example, if we had Keane at his peak in the team right now, I think SAF would be happy to blood Pogba, Tunnicliffe or Morrison in the knowledge that Keane would control things and the youngster could just go about their game safe in the knowledge that Keano would be there to mop up mistakes.

I would not fancy either of the named players alongside Scholes or Fletcher in a PL game that meant something.

My hope is that we have the title wrapped up before the last game of the season so we can give one or two of them a go against Blackpool.
 
The coaches at Manchester United (all?) thought Gary Neville would not make it. We're talking about qualified people here. In terms of midfield, we have a talent pool. If none of them make it, somethings wrong. We're talking about depth.

James, Cleverly, Drinkwater, Ajose, Brady, Morrison, Norwood, Tunnicliffe, Pogba, Linquard, Cole, Petrucci etc

Potential. There are some rated higher then others. I think it's obvious in particular one player who the club feel has a great chance. There are others but one in particular stands out

There are two things I think. The first is the league has reverted PRE chelsea in the sense that you can lose 5 or so games and be champions. It's two seasons now we've had inconsistancy at the top.

The second someone mentioned is the fact that we have openings in our squad/first team. That's a gigantic point. If you are a talented midfielder, you'll be well aware that Scholes/Giggs/Hargreaves? are nearing the end and Gibson/Obertan etc are still trying to establish themselves. When we had Giggs Keane Scholes Beckham/Ronaldo, how the hell was anyone going to break in? Impossible.

I think we have to many for no one to make it and I think we have too many for it to be only one but time will tell. I'm sure some will feature on the pre season tour to look at them.
 
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