Origins of Our on Field Problems: Ferguson's Final Years vs Post Ferguson Years

elnorte

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Apologies for the wordiness of the title but I'm interested in gauging what the latest opinions are on this contentious subject.

I understand many are of the view that the issues we're already witnessing under Mourinho's stewardship (even factoring in the short time he's been here) are no different to the tenures of both Moyes and Van Gaal.

Complaints are commonly about our stark lack of creativity, tempo and identity. In other words we both play and look like crap far too often to have any realistic hopes of winning the league title.

My opinion has always been that towards the end of Fergie's reign (particularly a year or so after Ronaldo's departure) there was a distinct shift away from the long held value placed upon entertainment towards a significantly more pragmatic approach to the majority of our matches.

Arguably this can be coupled with Sir Alex's continued (and somewhat controversial) refusal to invest heavily in the transfer market during his latter years. He obviously felt the squad was good enough to compete at the highest level. However, perhaps this was only the case with him as the one-of-a-kind inspirational manager whereas anyone else would have seriously struggled.

Regardless a major consequence of all this was criticism of our style of play soon became common place. Many derided it as functional at best and downright woeful to watch at worst. And yet seemingly without playing 'well' for very large stretches of the last two or three seasons we still either won or came very close to winning the league.

And herein, in my view, lies the most crucial differentiating factor. People were being bored to tears at times during seasons 2011-12 and 2012-13 and even more importantly wondering just how the hell we were still managing to win so many games. And yet win we did. Watching the matches could be an absolute chore but we still somehow possessed enough determination, self-belief and fear factor to make us one of the strongest contenders for the top domestic honours.

Throughout Moyes and Van Gaal's reigns we were subjected to pitifully bad football. Was it worse than the final years of Sir Alex? It probably was but I don't think the gulf was as large as some might think. The problem these two men had was that they lacked (amongst many other things) one crucial aspect of Ferguson's skill-set - an innate ability to motivate a team to win when not playing well or even in some cases win when playing really badly!

I would question, however, had SAF stayed in charged how long this could or would have lasted before even he recognised that changes were needed both in terms of personnel and style of play.

Furthermore we could arguably also still be suffering from the aforementioned under-investment in the squad all these years later. Some will so say no because of the billions spent since. But has this been sensible spending or has it in fact been for a large part desperate and directionless? Had we continued to refresh and reinvigorate the squad earlier and more regularly would we be experiencing all the problems that have inhibited us in recent times?

I would conclude by saying that we have never really regularly impressed either results of perfomance-wise for such a long time now. There was an inkling of hope with Mourinho's positive start to the season but it seems this latest wave of optimism has had to be put on hold following our string of three defeats on the bounce.

Perhaps if somehow he can find a way to return us to the expansive and creative footballing style that brought years of enjoyment and success, thereby re-discovering our identity in the process, the results, trophies and titles will then soon follow.
 
Our on field problems with lack of cohesion, fluidity, ball movement and reliance on individuals rather than a collective unit did start(or fully creep)in Fergie's final season.

Results just masked it or made people not care as much. I just don't know how a team with good players can look so clueless when they attack. I swear it's as if they've never played together before and you just stuck them out on the field and everyone does their own thing instead of a synchronized unit attacking and progressing. There's something wrong and it's a huge issue.
 
So many mistakes have been made since Rome 2009, at so many levels of the club, I find it difficult to even care who to blame anymore.

Nobody is without fault.
 
If we had SAF in charge we could've had a midfield of two scarecrows and we'd still be nearly winning the league. You don't know what you've got until it's gone.

It's always been said that no one man is bigger than the club but SAF was. He WAS Manchester United. The moment he left we became a completely different club entirely and every other club smelt blood. Nobody is scared of us anymore but like you say the quality of the football and the playing squad isn't the problem. They were scared of us because they knew even if they were winning that we'd do something to try and come back because SAF wouldn't let us just sit back and do nothing.

Football is cyclical. When we lost Sir Matt we went into a long period of decline and it took Sir Alex many years to right that slide, almost losing his job in the process. We're in for it again now.

Honestly though, if you said to any fan of any team that in 27 years you're going to have a man capable of sustaining success, rebuilding sides, promoting youth into stardom whilst buying a superstar or two to supplement that I think they'd laugh in your face. SAF was a miracle for us and it doesn't matter who we've got in charge, this slide into shite is going to continue for a good while. Liverpool is evidence of that.
 
So many mistakes have been made since Rome 2009, at so many levels of the club, I find it difficult to even care who to blame anymore.

Nobody is without fault.

True. 2009 was an embarrassing transfer window for the club. If we showed just a teeny bit of ambition then, we probably would have won the league for the 4th straight season and perhaps made another CL final.
 
Whatever mistakes were made in final Fergie years after that it could have been mended a lot better. We gave a job to Moyes who sacked Fergie's staff, signed only Fellaini and then Mata, never was good enough, played some horrible stuff. Then LVG got rid of some players but got rid of too many of them, bought and bought some moe, stumbled on a good formula for about 6 games, then next year scrapped everything and got us playing worse.
Sure there wasn't enough investment but last 3 years we're investing and it seems we've been spending a lot of money on not good enough players or spending for the sake of it without an idea how to use new players.
 
If we had SAF in charge we could've had a midfield of two scarecrows and we'd still be nearly winning the league. You don't know what you've got until it's gone.

It's always been said that no one man is bigger than the club but SAF was. He WAS Manchester United. The moment he left we became a completely different club entirely and every other club smelt blood. Nobody is scared of us anymore but like you say the quality of the football and the playing squad isn't the problem. They were scared of us because they knew even if they were winning that we'd do something to try and come back because SAF wouldn't let us just sit back and do nothing.

Football is cyclical. When we lost Sir Matt we went into a long period of decline and it took Sir Alex many years to right that slide, almost losing his job in the process. We're in for it again now.

Honestly though, if you said to any fan of any team that in 27 years you're going to have a man capable of sustaining success, rebuilding sides, promoting youth into stardom whilst buying a superstar or two to supplement that I think they'd laugh in your face. SAF was a miracle for us and it doesn't matter who we've got in charge, this slide into shite is going to continue for a good while. Liverpool is evidence of that.
THIS!
 
If we had SAF in charge we could've had a midfield of two scarecrows and we'd still be nearly winning the league. You don't know what you've got until it's gone.

It's always been said that no one man is bigger than the club but SAF was. He WAS Manchester United. The moment he left we became a completely different club entirely and every other club smelt blood. Nobody is scared of us anymore but like you say the quality of the football and the playing squad isn't the problem. They were scared of us because they knew even if they were winning that we'd do something to try and come back because SAF wouldn't let us just sit back and do nothing.

Football is cyclical. When we lost Sir Matt we went into a long period of decline and it took Sir Alex many years to right that slide, almost losing his job in the process. We're in for it again now.

Honestly though, if you said to any fan of any team that in 27 years you're going to have a man capable of sustaining success, rebuilding sides, promoting youth into stardom whilst buying a superstar or two to supplement that I think they'd laugh in your face. SAF was a miracle for us and it doesn't matter who we've got in charge, this slide into shite is going to continue for a good while. Liverpool is evidence of that.

I don't really accept "football is cyclical" as some kind of iron law, particularly while we remain one of the wealthiest clubs around. As an organisation, United simply made a succession of poor decisions post-2009 (maybe starting slightly earlier in terms of transfers) and we have yet to see real evidence of them reversing the slump. It is still very much reversible though without having to repeat the wilderness years of the 70s and 80s but the club badly needs more coherent leadership and strategic direction on the football side.
 
Whatever mistakes were made in final Fergie years after that it could have been mended a lot better. We gave a job to Moyes who sacked Fergie's staff, signed only Fellaini and then Mata, never was good enough, played some horrible stuff. Then LVG got rid of some players but got rid of too many of them, bought and bought some moe, stumbled on a good formula for about 6 games, then next year scrapped everything and got us playing worse.
Sure there wasn't enough investment but last 3 years we're investing and it seems we've been spending a lot of money on not good enough players or spending for the sake of it without an idea how to use new players.

Those 2 signings along with the rooney contract still lingers in the Moyes era, mata could be used better but the other 2, are the big problem with the team
 
You're right but I don't buy that the solution is more complicated than having a manager with:

1- The balls to drop underperformers.
2- The ability to explain to players (no matter who they are) and implement a specific style of play through various systems that is both compact defensively and dominating attack-wise, and the ability to make the players play as a cohesive unit with a plan.

I don't know if Mourinho is up to it, but through all the self-analysis let's not forget the solution is strictly on the pitch, more simple than we realize and many managers have proven it's completely doable.
 
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Surely it was not just about player motivation? I mean it's not like Fergie held a motivational speech every game and magically players decided to win games. More than motivation he adapted to the players, got the best out of them, through instructions, training or whatever, he even made average players perform.

Whereas LvG and Mourinho are too focused to get their types of players (and somehow when they get them still look a bit clueless).

I have no clue what Jose is trying to do, but if he is trying to replicate his first Chelsea team or Inter, it's not going to work. Rarely is a player identical to another, there's no Lampard, Drogba et all just like there was no Keane so we "replaced" him with Carrick.
It's normal he has a preferred style of play, but with all his experience and success he should be able to be more flexible.

His Chelsea team was unique in terms of that they didn't have much flair apart from Robben, but with especially Lampard and Drogba he had players who constantly guaranteed goals, created chances and both (Drogba more, but even Lampard) were mostly reliable even in the big games.
In his 2nd period at Chelsea when those players were not in their prime anymore, he thought it would be good to get rid of technical attacking players like KDB and Mata but you do need flair to succeed.

I know it's currently in to talk about some innovative modern style especially because of Guardiola, but since Guardiola won the CL in 2011 all 10 CL finalists (as well as the 4 WC/EC finalists since Spain's Euro 2012 win) acchieved all that with different/not complex or extremely "modern" style of play, but the most common aspect was that they had individual flair players to win you games.

There are so many different ways to be successful, it would be tragic if Mourinho can't reinvent himself a bit and find one of those ways.

Regarding SAF our football was fine until 2010. After that it got worse but we got results and trophies. I really think in 2011 when we overtook Liverpool he thought about retiring in 1-2 years. After 2012 despite the dramatic way in which we lost the title he still had the energy, ideas and ability to win the title back again from another team and manager.
However to build a new team, adapt the style one more time and invest he would have needed to overtake another cycle of 3-5 years. With 70/71 you really can't blame him that he didn't want to do that.

Anyhow, now more than half of the team is not his, there's absolutely no reason why a new manager can't get across his ideas to his players. If our style of play was not good enough, then what the hell was Spurs' or Liverpool's from 2011 (or even the contrast betwen Mancini and Pellegrini). But somehow those teams are doing better (well with Spurs and Liverpool only occassionaly but they have at least implemented some kind of playing style).

I guess I touched more points than the OP mentioned, but I am not too motivated today to post in several threads :angel:
 
It's always been said that no one man is bigger than the club but SAF was. He WAS Manchester United. The moment he left we became a completely different club entirely and every other club smelt blood. Nobody is scared of us anymore but like you say the quality of the football and the playing squad isn't the problem. They were scared of us because they knew even if they were winning that we'd do something to try and come back because SAF wouldn't let us just sit back and do nothing.

You're right and I think Jose recognised this and stocked the team with badass mother feckers like Zlatan, Pogba and Bailly and sticks by Rooney and also likes Fellaini.

Today was horrendous but I did feel happy seeing some players genuinely raging at losing like Zlatan and Pogba, and even Rooney at times (normally it just annoys me with him)
 
First and foremost, I don't think Fergie realised how much him leaving would affect the team. I think he thought that whoever succeeded him would get the same out of the team as he did. The timing of his retirement came as something of a surprise to him, given that by all accounts it was a decision made based on suddenly changing personal circumstances, and wasn't made until midway through his final season. Despite this, I think there was some evidence that he was planning for his retirement.

Not just including his final season, but the few prior, I think we could see Ferguson putting the foundations together for what he thought would be the next great United side. I think he was trying to avoid the lengthy transition from the 99 treble-winning side, with the likes of Beckham, Schmeichel, Keane, Stam, Irwin, Cole and Yorke, being phased out and/or let go, to the 08 Double Side with their eventual replacements, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Rooney, Ronaldo and Van Der Sar (via a few other players during a difficult early-mid 00s).

We all know Fergie trusted youth, and believed vehemently that given the chance, young players could establish themselves as key parts of top class sides. The 2012-13 side contained De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Evans, Smalling, Anderson, Nani, Cleverley, Hernandez, Welbeck and Kagawa, with Fabio, Zaha, Powell, Buttner and Henriquez all expected to be making proper first team breakthroughs fairly imminently, and the oldest amongst them being 24/25. There was already evidence of Fergie phasing out Scholes and Giggs, and to a lesser extent Rooney, Rio and Vidic. With only a couple of signings (notably some strength in midfield), I think a Fergie led team would have had no trouble in the league these past few years.

Whether it was Fergie alone, the board, a selection committee or simply not getting any of the names higher on the list, the Moyes appointment was simply a mistake. From replacing a big chunk of the backroom staff with his own from Everton, including having a relatively inexperienced Phil Neville amongst the senior members, to the shambles that was our summer transfer window, almost all of it comes down to Moyes. I know Gill leaving and Woodward not having found his feet in the role yet can't have helped matters, but given that Woodward has since had no issue with splashing the cash around, I think we can safely say the lack of activity was down to Moyes.

The four targets that stood out that summer were Thiago, Fabregas, Baines and Fellaini, two of which were at Everton, Moyes' old club. If we were serious about Baines and Fellaini, we should have snapped them up straight away, particularly given Fellaini's buyout clause that Moyes absolutely had to know about. As we ended up not getting Baines, and only signing Fellaini on deadline day for more than his buyout clause, I think we can safely say that they were not priority targets. I think Thiago, Fabregas and Fellaini were all on the same "bolster the midfield" shortlist, probably with a few other names too. I have no idea whether we were actually in for Herrera that summer or not because all I can remember about that whole debacle was something about some guys claiming to be from United turning up in Bilbao but actually not being anything to do with United. That pretty much summed up our summer though.

Had we signed one or both of Thiago and Fabregas, I believe the team may have had something of a much needed lift from the inevitable disappointment hanging around immediately post-Fergie. As it was, we got Fellaini in a rushed and last ditch attempt to do something with the squad, leaving us with a team being led by a new manager, with entirely new coaching staff, and the only addition to the squad being a chap from the new manager's old club. We started the season with a hangover, and ended it begging for mercy whilst we hugged the toilet, and mid-season record transfer for a player that the manager had no idea how or where to play did nothing to help matters.

Additionally, I think there was some significance to some of the outgoing transfers made by Moyes, including loan deals. Fabio was kept out of the squad for much of the season, brought on in an FA Cup game late on, then sent off mere minutes later, never to play for United again. Fergie trusted Fabio enough to start him in a CL Final against Barca, then loaned him out because he wanted him to get first team football whilst Evra still had LB cemented as his own. Moyes played him 3 times, two of which were off the bench. Zaha was Fergie's last signing, and was given just two starts and two cameos off the bench by Moyes before being sent out on loan. There was some excitement surrounding Zaha's arrival, with him being handed a five-and-a-half year contract, a clear show of belief from Fergie in his ability. I know in hindsight we can look back and say that it's clear that neither were good enough for United, but to give up, or appear to give up on what had to have been considered at the time two hot prospects, one of which had only just joined the club, had to have had an effect on the team.

And that brings us to Vidic. I'm still a bit sour over how all of this was handled by Vidic, but I still can't help but feel that it was yet again, down to Moyes. We announced our captain would be leaving soon, midway through the season, at a time when we needed all the tenacity we could muster from the players, and not only that he was leaving, but leaving on a free too. When the captain is jumping ship, how is everyone else supposed to react? I'm also fairly sure that I've seen an interview with Vidic where he states he wouldn't have left had he known Moyes was going to be sacked come the end of the season. The team were utterly deflated, and, for the first time in basically forever, were not going to be playing any European football the following season.

Post-Moyes we had van Gaal, and given the success of his Dutch side in the World Cup, we were expecting him and RVP to spark up a great relationship and the team to begin firing again under a no-nonsense manager that wasn't afraid to scream his head off on the sidelines. As it turned out, we got some stubborn old boot that liked substituting full-backs for no apparent reason and clutching wine lists during the dullest matches ever to grace the Premier League.

As with Moyes, I think there was once again some significance to the transfers. Nani, Rio and Evra, key players of previous seasons, left with Vidic, and Kagawa, once an exciting prospect, was shipped off back to Dortmund. Homegrown Welbeck was sent packing to rivals, Arsenal, and fan favourite Hernandez was packed off to Madrid. I know some of us were looking at this at the time as part of a much needed clear out, but it was all a bit much too soon, especially as we'd been sunk deeper into the post-Fergie hangover by Moyes.

Di Maria and Falcao (the latter especially) didn't provide the exciting, attacking football we'd expected from their arrivals, and the other new signings were also taking time to settle into the first team. Rooney had taken over the captaincy from Vidic, and despite declining performance quality appeared to be undroppable, and van Persie appeared to be out of favour with van Gaal, despite everyone's assumptions that they'd work well together. Zaha was finally let go on a permanent deal in the Winter window, and Darren Fletcher, who had only been appointed vice-captain at the beginning of the season, was another Fergie-favourite to leave the club.

By the September 2015, only 7 of Fergie's 2012-13 squad remained in the side, with the departures of Evans, Rafael, van Persie and Lindegaard, and Hernandez, Cleverley and Nani also leaving on permanent deals. CL qualification was pointless given the lacklustre performances and early exit (despite Nick Powell's best efforts), and being dumped into the Europa League ended in more disappointment after getting embarrassed by Liverpool. Di Maria had come and gone, Falcao never really seemed to arrive, the one good part of Moyes' tenure had been loaned out to Dortmund to play almost no football, then brought back to play less, and despite some exciting new signings, including some at the top end of the field, Rooney remained undroppable and we once again missed out on CL football.
 
Now we have Mourinho. He's not really made any controversial decisions transfer-wise, and our business this summer looks pretty good on paper. We've obviously had a bad few games, but I've still got faith that we'll turn it around and have a good season, leaving us with something concrete to build on next year. There's not much more to say about Mourinho at the moment.

At the beginning of the 2012-13 season, Fergie was not planning on retiring. It was only after his sister-in-law's death in October 2012 that he started to consider it, and not until December 2012 that he made the decision. Ideally, I think he'd have had a plan spanning a few seasons that prepared the club for his retirement. Had he made the decision to retire when he did, but delayed the actual date of his retirement until the end of the 2015-16 season rather than the immediacy in which it happened, with Mourinho coming in to replace him (although in reality it'd have probably been Giggs), and subsequently had three more seasons of planning and preparation, I think we'd be looking at a vastly different Manchester United, and one more suited to Fergie's successor.

For one, I think we'd have at least one more league title, and would not have missed out on CL football at any point. Additionally, I think that, whilst we may not be looking at many more than 7 left from the 2012-13 squad, the transition of key players within the squad would have been much smoother, and we wouldn't have seen departures on the scale that we have in a single summer. I think Rooney would now be used sparingly and not be captain, and Mourinho would have been taking over a much happier, settled side.

One thing I learnt from Fergie's final few years is that winning actually does trump "exciting" football, because there's nothing more exciting than winning a match, and as a result, winning trophies. We may not have played the most free-flowing stuff in his final few years, but there was always a nervous excitement surrounding any close game that we weren't winning, rather than the dejected boredom of the Moyes and van Gaal seasons.

I don't think we've ever actually properly suffered from under-investment, apart from perhaps the European campaigns post-Ronaldo. I believe that our problems stem from Moyes' appointment as Fergie's successor, and the subsequent pit of despair we found ourselves in. Van Gaal did little to improve the situation, and if anything, the wholesale changes to the playing and backroom staff brought about by Van Gaal and Moyes in such a short space of time are to blame.
 
My opinion has always been that towards the end of Fergie's reign (particularly a year or so after Ronaldo's departure) there was a distinct shift away from the long held value placed upon entertainment towards a significantly more pragmatic approach to the majority of our matches.

...

Regardless a major consequence of all this was criticism of our style of play soon became common place. Many derided it as functional at best and downright woeful to watch at worst. And yet seemingly without playing 'well' for very large stretches of the last two or three seasons we still either won or came very close to winning the league.

And herein, in my view, lies the most crucial differentiating factor. People were being bored to tears at times during seasons 2011-12 and 2012-13 and even more importantly wondering just how the hell we were still managing to win so many games. And yet win we did. Watching the matches could be an absolute chore but we still somehow possessed enough determination, self-belief and fear factor to make us one of the strongest contenders for the top domestic honours.

I don't think the above holds true at all. For me, Fergie's teams generally entertained right to the end with that final 5-5 vs West Brom. The stats appear to back that up: -

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Whether we played good or bad, I never remember feeling bored with United under Fergie. The downturn only came in the last three seasons.


Perhaps if somehow he can find a way to return us to the expansive and creative footballing style that brought years of enjoyment and success, thereby re-discovering our identity in the process, the results, trophies and titles will then soon follow.

I think the above is spot on as an aim, but Jose isn't the type of inspirational, expansive, creative football manager to bring back that entertainment value or identity.
 
No hunger, no desire and no passion. Yes, there were plenty of crap performances under SAF, but more often then not when our backs were to the wall we would see fight and desire to win from the entire team. We dont have that since he left.
 
When talking about entertainment and excitement, we really need to narrow down what exactly does that mean. Because the type of game Pep teams or Klopp teams play is a very highly structured game based on positioning and movement that has been worked on endlessly. It is an intellectual approach to the game that ensures numerical superiority in key areas of the pitch which, when it works creates space and goals = entertainment. One can argue that we were never really like that throughout our history. The closest we ever got to a tactical game within the same lines was under LvG, never before and certainly doesn't look it now. We were entertaining however and more often than not exciting so where did that come from? First of all, in the '90s and early '00s, you didn't need to be highly advanced tactically in the Premier League at least to be fluid. Everyone was playing more or less the same chaotic way and since we had the best players and strongest mentality, the simple act of getting them to do what they can do ensured goals and excitement. In Europe, those limitations were exposed however when we couldn't just go out and play like we are used as the best Europeans sides were tactically good enough to nullify us more often than not.

The second reason was Fergie's alpha like mindset. He was frankly nuts sometimes with his risk taking. The majority of managers even the ones associated with great football hate risk. They want to eliminate the element of luck as much as possible. Fergie however in the league at least understood that the difference between 3 points and 1 is higher than 1 and 0. That mindset alone ensured so many comebacks and late surges that had nothing sophisticated about them but were one hell of a ride and again = excitement. What happened however in the second half of the '00s is that teams became better. The average team has developed into a well structured sophisticated unit at home and in Europe, Fergie finally decided enough is enough. How do you counter organised fluid teams who are better skilled at possession, pressing and positioning? You sit deep and make sure you have men behind the ball + you get as many game changers as possible up front to win you games. That's what we started to see around 2006 and again despite not being a team whose tactical blueprint would be copied or anything of the sort we were still exciting thanks to that still existing risky attitude and of course the talents of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney.

This brings us to the final chapter after Ronaldo left. We still had a team that is not tactically advanced enough to be fluid through movement alone up front and without the game changing abilities of a Ronaldo calibre of player. Our only solution then was to risk too much if we want to attack or to commit too many behind the ball when we don't. We were functional pretty much like a typical Mourinho team would be. Why didn't Fergie build a more tactically advanced side? That simply wasn't his thing. Fergie is a great, maybe the greatest manager ever but an innovative coach he isn't. He is like the Steve Jobs of football in that his skill set is about the big picture, looking ahead and managing an organisation. He is not a technician like a Pep or Klopp.

And we come to now. A series of disjointed baffling decisions from the club after the retirement of the great man. We gad to start from the beginning in many ways in 2013. We couldn't possibly continue doing what Sir Alex did and had to come up with a plan for how to start over. There are two examples on how to approach this; Chelsea and Abramovic and how they just hire the hottest name in the market without any regard to long term playing strategy, philosophy, etc. A strategy that can lead to success as when you throw enough cash at it, it is bound to stick at some point. The second is City who decided long ago that they want to play a certain way and made everything at the club work towards that from directors, academy to finally, head coach. We did the Chelsea way and are still hoping for that cash to bring some reward.
 
We couldn't possibly continue doing what Sir Alex did and had to come up with a plan for how to start over.

We couldn't appoint a manager continue to motivate and take risks? It sounds pretty straightforward to me.
 
So many mistakes have been made since Rome 2009, at so many levels of the club, I find it difficult to even care who to blame anymore.

Nobody is without fault.

This
 
We couldn't appoint a manager continue to motivate and take risks? It sounds pretty straightforward to me.
No we couldn't because it was never going to work. Who does that anymore anyway? Managers favour structure and low risk for a reason, it is the best way to ensure positive returns. Fergie got away with it because in the '90s and early '00s, PL teams were nowhere near as advanced tactically as they are now and later on in his career, he had the talents of the best player in the world plus an incredible aura around him and us as a club from those dominant years. And even then he struggled to produce dominant entertaining football on a regular basis. So no, his methods worked because he was a management genius, emphasis on management. Take him out and you are left with a tactically limited side and none of his many many attributes.
 
No hunger, no desire and no passion. Yes, there were plenty of crap performances under SAF, but more often then not when our backs were to the wall we would see fight and desire to win from the entire team. We dont have that since he left.

Saf relied on a number of ageing but top quality players and which where backed by average players who provided the leg work. Once the old players legs were gone......
 
Maybe I'm being dim, but what exactly is the OP trying to say? I genuinely don't get it.

Are you trying to tell us that what was witnessed under Fergie's final years wasn't that better and that the issue had started long before now? In which case you're basically parroting what has been repeated on here for about 2 years now.
 
When talking about entertainment and excitement, we really need to narrow down what exactly does that mean. Because the type of game Pep teams or Klopp teams play is a very highly structured game based on positioning and movement that has been worked on endlessly. It is an intellectual approach to the game that ensures numerical superiority in key areas of the pitch which, when it works creates space and goals = entertainment. One can argue that we were never really like that throughout our history. The closest we ever got to a tactical game within the same lines was under LvG, never before and certainly doesn't look it now. We were entertaining however and more often than not exciting so where did that come from? First of all, in the '90s and early '00s, you didn't need to be highly advanced tactically in the Premier League at least to be fluid. Everyone was playing more or less the same chaotic way and since we had the best players and strongest mentality, the simple act of getting them to do what they can do ensured goals and excitement. In Europe, those limitations were exposed however when we couldn't just go out and play like we are used as the best Europeans sides were tactically good enough to nullify us more often than not.

The second reason was Fergie's alpha like mindset. He was frankly nuts sometimes with his risk taking. The majority of managers even the ones associated with great football hate risk. They want to eliminate the element of luck as much as possible. Fergie however in the league at least understood that the difference between 3 points and 1 is higher than 1 and 0. That mindset alone ensured so many comebacks and late surges that had nothing sophisticated about them but were one hell of a ride and again = excitement. What happened however in the second half of the '00s is that teams became better. The average team has developed into a well structured sophisticated unit at home and in Europe, Fergie finally decided enough is enough. How do you counter organised fluid teams who are better skilled at possession, pressing and positioning? You sit deep and make sure you have men behind the ball + you get as many game changers as possible up front to win you games. That's what we started to see around 2006 and again despite not being a team whose tactical blueprint would be copied or anything of the sort we were still exciting thanks to that still existing risky attitude and of course the talents of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney.

This brings us to the final chapter after Ronaldo left. We still had a team that is not tactically advanced enough to be fluid through movement alone up front and without the game changing abilities of a Ronaldo calibre of player. Our only solution then was to risk too much if we want to attack or to commit too many behind the ball when we don't. We were functional pretty much like a typical Mourinho team would be. Why didn't Fergie build a more tactically advanced side? That simply wasn't his thing. Fergie is a great, maybe the greatest manager ever but an innovative coach he isn't. He is like the Steve Jobs of football in that his skill set is about the big picture, looking ahead and managing an organisation. He is not a technician like a Pep or Klopp.

And we come to now. A series of disjointed baffling decisions from the club after the retirement of the great man. We gad to start from the beginning in many ways in 2013. We couldn't possibly continue doing what Sir Alex did and had to come up with a plan for how to start over. There are two examples on how to approach this; Chelsea and Abramovic and how they just hire the hottest name in the market without any regard to long term playing strategy, philosophy, etc. A strategy that can lead to success as when you throw enough cash at it, it is bound to stick at some point. The second is City who decided long ago that they want to play a certain way and made everything at the club work towards that from directors, academy to finally, head coach. We did the Chelsea way and are still hoping for that cash to bring some reward.
Good post but your final paragraph isn't really correct. The club is disjointed in its approach but fundamentally there's a plan. We play attacking football at youth level and we do it well but that hasn't translated to the first team, partially because we've had a lot of different head coaches. City has had stability (at least what you can consider stability in modern football) through Mancini and Pellegrini. We're more like them but before they got the stability. Chelsea's youth program is buy every player possible, loan them out and hope they become good and still want to be here.
 
Even at Fergies last years I always had the believe we can still win a game after going down 2-1 at the 85th minute.
Today I could turn the TV off after we conceded the second goal.
 
Maybe I'm being dim, but what exactly is the OP trying to say? I genuinely don't get it.

Are you trying to tell us that what was witnessed under Fergie's final years wasn't that better and that the issue had started long before now? In which case you're basically parroting what has been repeated on here for about 2 years now.

Right ok. Apologies if I wasn't clear.

Essentially, yes, I'm asking if people do believe (and if so to what extent) that the deep-lying performance issues we've been seeing since Fergie retired, actually began before he retired. You use the phrase 'parroting for 2 years' which indicates to me this is the case but I was never sure.

While I do point out that I remember people bemoaning our playing style at the time I couldn't be certain if opinions had changed in the intervening period. Not necessarily just in the sense of looking back with rose-tinted spectacles (although that might be case for some) but also because others may feel that with the way things are now we perhaps never truly appreciated just how lucky we were.

Personally I don't think it's contradictory on one hand to be honoured to have had SAF as our manager and all the incredible achievements he made during his time here while at the same time acknowledging that perhaps some of the more negative issues we are now experiencing may partly have their routes in the final years of his tenure. I just wanted to see how many others felt the same way.

Does that make sense?
 
Good post but your final paragraph isn't really correct. The club is disjointed in its approach but fundamentally there's a plan. We play attacking football at youth level and we do it well but that hasn't translated to the first team, partially because we've had a lot of different head coaches. City has had stability (at least what you can consider stability in modern football) through Mancini and Pellegrini. We're more like them but before they got the stability. Chelsea's youth program is buy every player possible, loan them out and hope they become good and still want to be here.
I hope you are right but the fact that Moyes, LvG and Mourinho hold very different footballing philosophies to me suggests that there is no plan. A plan would be when hiring LvG that we pursue someone who will build on the positional high defensive/possession based game and if we couldn't get the best (Pep) we'd go for the second, third and even 10th candidate before we turn into an entirely different approach which is what we did. My point is that if you are a club that has a clear strategy on it wants to play, you hire people based on their profile and approach rather than their win percentage (Mourinho) or country (Moyes).
 
No we couldn't because it was never going to work. Who does that anymore anyway? Managers favour structure and low risk for a reason, it is the best way to ensure positive returns. Fergie got away with it because in the '90s and early '00s, PL teams were nowhere near as advanced tactically as they are now and later on in his career, he had the talents of the best player in the world plus an incredible aura around him and us as a club from those dominant years. And even then he struggled to produce dominant entertaining football on a regular basis. So no, his methods worked because he was a management genius, emphasis on management. Take him out and you are left with a tactically limited side and none of his many many attributes.

It worked for two decades right up until 2012-13 after which we stopped trying. Sorry but it is nonsense to say he struggled to produce dominant entertaining football on a regular basis - he won the Premier League in five of his last seven seasons! It is since his retirement and taking on this supposedly low risk tactically advanced football that we have slumped. So of course we should have carried on the successful path we were on. I really think some supporters have a strange way of justifying what's going on at the club the past 3-4 seasons.

Tactics can be overrated; it's football not chess, and most often it comes down to quality and motivation. That is how Ferguson played the game and I think if we take him out of the equation the obvious fix is to put someone similar with the same hunger, motivation, work rate and standards back in. As you were United. Changing that successful strategy is not succeeding and makes us the same as all the rest.
 
I hope you are right but the fact that Moyes, LvG and Mourinho hold very different footballing philosophies to me suggests that there is no plan. A plan would be when hiring LvG that we pursue someone who will build on the positional high defensive/possession based game and if we couldn't get the best (Pep) we'd go for the second, third and even 10th candidate before we turn into an entirely different approach which is what we did. My point is that if you are a club that has a clear strategy on it wants to play, you hire people based on their profile and approach rather than their win percentage (Mourinho) or country (Moyes).
The plan with LvG was to get someone to steer the ship after Moyes towards a more stable environment but the board neither envisioned that both his results and performance would be poor. The Mourinho appointment is more towards the 'top manager for a top club' that was influenced by an unacceptable performance from a manager that was 1 year away from retirement. With Mourinho available it was an easy decision really.

So long as Mourinho has a contract and the support of the dressing room he'll be here. The recent results are a reality check for a lot of fans but others aren't surprised. Mourinho had a very tough task to do. Yes the players spent a lot of money (albeit most on one player) but that's only the start to correcting the problems. Like he said after the City game, he has to get to know the mentality of players and how they handle the big occasion and some don't seem up for it. This is key because this has been our weakness since SAF left, mentally weak players. You can have a lot of talent but if you only play well when everything goes your way and stop giving it all when things don't, you don't belong here. SAF was notorious for making the most out of average players but at least those average players had the correct mentality. I think it's partly the reason why players like Young have been here for so long (he's got excellent mentality) and why Fellaini is always starting as opposed to Schneiderlin (who has shown nothing of the sorts). It's also partly why Rooney has been highly regarded by managers but that aspect of his game seem to have just vanished. He's mentally spent by the looks of it and that's really bad for him because it was one of his biggest strengths as a player.

In my opinion this team doesn't need a big personal change as of now. It needs to click as a team. It hasn't done so because we had a poor pre-season with some new and old arrivals arriving late because of the Euros and late transfers. 2 months ago a lot of people weren't big on the chances of us winning the league but after the first three games, Zlatan scoring every time and the signing of Pogba they got their hopes up only for them to be dashed by the next 3 games. It's a harsh reality check but the same alarms are not ringing for me like they did under LvG. We're defensively sound whilst last season we were fine but De Gea was bailing us out a lot. We have a proper striker that's scoring goals, something we've been sorely missing. We've got more cover up front but at the moment some of it has just been injured. We're not rotating the full backs every match out of necessity (Shaw is really good).

People need to be patient. Just like with Moeys and LvG they at least need to stop worry until Christmas because it's still so early that some players have barely played yet (Carrick, Schneiderlin, Depay, Smalling, Young, Mkhitaryan). Rooney has to be phased out of the team, not only for 1-2 or two matches but for a proper period. Players have to adjust to football without him on the pitch at all. That means different movement and focus because currently their trained to make the most of what he does (which is not much). They also need to adjust to Zlatan. United hasn't really had his kind of striker before. I try to watch attackers move off the ball. One big difference between us and say Barca is that when Suarez or Neymar have space and make a the pass will come. I saw today Zlatan today at least two times make a run between the right CB and middle CB and he didn't get the ball. Now another big difference there is that Barca have Iniesta, Rakitic, Busquets and Messi putting those balls in and we have Rooney and Fellaini. Rashfor and Martial aren't good at those balls either. Mkhitaryan, Mata and Carrick are.

This post went a bit beyond what I originally planned and became a bit ranty but whatever :p
 
Timing is everything.
I think Fergie, if he had stayed would have been at the beginning of building his next title winning team. He won the title in his last season with a team that realistically wasnt going to be able to do it again. I think that a combination of the worlds greatest manager leaving at the end of a cycle for a team coupled with a Woody starting fresh meant that whoever came in next would have had a couple of years of struggle. Unfortunately Moyes was the worst manager we could have appointed to come in at the end of a teams cycle and the appointment of new people such as Woody.
I still believe that we are 2-3 more seasons away from challenging for the title again and even if it had been Pep coming in there would still be a delay till we won the title again.
I never wanted Mourinho but I think he has a challenge on his hands and I do think he can turn it around but its not going to be the instant turn around so many on here who were giddy at Mourinho's appointment were thinking would happen. Even though i dont like Mourinho, hate the type of football his teams play I do hope he can be successful here and would like to see him here for a long time rather than his usual short stints. I do think he can turn it around but its still going to be a couple of seasons till we are really true title contenders again.
 
It worked for two decades right up until 2012-13 after which we stopped trying. Sorry but it is nonsense to say he struggled to produce dominant entertaining football on a regular basis - he won the Premier League in five of his last seven seasons! It is since his retirement and taking on this supposedly low risk tactically advanced football that we have slumped. So of course we should have carried on the successful path we were on. I really think some supporters have a strange way of justifying what's going on at the club the past 3-4 seasons.
I am sorry but I can't agree with that. In Fergie's last years we were a team that simply did enough. We would either get our noses up front through Rooney or Van Persie and sit back behind to win 1/0 or 2/0 or concede first and throw the kitchen sink which worked more often than not against the average. Our displays in Europe or even against the best teams at home were far from impressive. We were out-possessed and out-played by Athletic Bilbao once ffs! When you talk about winning 5 out of 7 leagues, that is not very relevant to the quality of our football necessarily. We were solid, experienced and had some brilliant individual talent from Scholes, Carrick, Van Persie, Rooney, Vidic, Rio, Evra and so on so I am not arguing that we weren't good, I am arguing that we weren't fluid in the way you see some teams.

We didn't really take a low risk tactical football. We didn't do anything really we just made a series of managerial appointments with nothing in common between them in terms of profile and vision.
Tactics can be overrated; it's football not chess, and most often it comes down to quality and motivation. That is how Ferguson played the game and I think if we take him out of the equation the obvious fix is to put someone similar with the same hunger, motivation, work rate and standards back in. As you were United. Changing that successful strategy is not succeeding and makes us the same as all the rest.
Tactics cannot be overrated or underrated. The level of their importance simply depends on how complex the managers working in the game make them. If two managers decide to go with a basic 442 with two wide men and a deep defence, then yes tactics are useless, you simply need to get your team to be stronger/faster/mentally tougher or whatever. If one manager starts putting players between the lines or other such things, you are forced to move on and adapt. The fact of the matter is that tactics like any field that humans touch keep evolving. Managers are being more expressive with varying levels of success. It is no secret that our teams under Sir Alex were lacking in Europe. We were consistently shut down against the likes of Bayern, Juventus, Real and Barcelona and if you don't think tactics had something to do it, I would have to disagree with you.

Your last point about continuing in his footsteps is difficult to understand. I mean of course to me or any United fan I assume if given those terms; here is another Fergie, you will dominate for 20 years, have some high octane drama on a regular basis with the small downside of not being the most tactically fluid out there and rely more on risk than structure, I would take it. That's a non starter. The problem is there is no one who can ensure that or even come close to it so what is the point of looking at the impossible? The man was the last of his breed in terms of that ability to manage an entire behemoth of an operation and more importantly, he somehow made it work. If you think there is someone out there who can do that, I'd like to hear your suggestions.
 
No hunger, no desire and no passion. Yes, there were plenty of crap performances under SAF, but more often then not when our backs were to the wall we would see fight and desire to win from the entire team. We dont have that since he left.

Are you Alan Shearer in disgusie? There's been numerous failings at the club - to simply say we're in the current situation is due to us not "wanting" it is overly simplistic and reductive.
 
We didn't handle the transition phase well. Then we had Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Scholes, Giggs. All long serving players, leaders in one way or other. We replaced them with substandard purchases who now need replacing in coming windows.

Apart from DDG, Smalling and Valencia, our best players haven't been with us long enough. Those who have are either past it or not leaders. We need someone to guide the players. Maybe an ex-player who has won it all with us should be appointed as a coach to show the team what it means to play for United.

Also, we don't have an identity on the pitch, no game plan. Its always mix and match. Indecisive managers haven't help the cause. The blame should be put firmly on the management.
 
It worked for two decades right up until 2012-13 after which we stopped trying. Sorry but it is nonsense to say he struggled to produce dominant entertaining football on a regular basis - he won the Premier League in five of his last seven seasons! It is since his retirement and taking on this supposedly low risk tactically advanced football that we have slumped. So of course we should have carried on the successful path we were on. I really think some supporters have a strange way of justifying what's going on at the club the past 3-4 seasons.

Well said. This has to be without doubt, the most irritating aspect of fans trying in desperation to fabricate a line of blame onto Ferguson for where we are right now. He retired a long serving and all-conquering hero. We then appointed one crap manager who was crap and was sacked, then another crap manager who was crap and was sacked. We're now onto our third and he's been here about 6 seconds and the fans are already losing their shit.
 
People talk about the "post-Ronaldo" era but the decline in our creativity exactly maps the decline in the influence of Giggs and Scholes.

As they got used more sparingly and played well less frequently we found it harder and harder to create goals. Several years later neither of them have been replaced with anyone even close to the quality of these two at their best. A Giggs and Scholes in their prime is exactly what our current side needs to compete with the best around.

Vidic and Rio have been similarly hard to replace but we never used to be as reliant on world class CBs as we became once our creativity started to wane. Which began long before SAF retired.
 
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what is been our disease since 2012 is our increase lack of seriousness in keeping possession as a team. We used to rely on Carrick, Scholes and Giggs controllong possesion too mich. LVGs obessions aside. We are so careless in possession its untrue. There is no reason regardless of who is in charge why our center mid fielders and center halves don't have 80% pass completion almost every game. Till we sort out the sloppy passing we can't expect to create much outside individual skill.
 
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People talk about the "post-Ronaldo" era but the decline in our creativity exactly maps the decline in the influence of Giggs and Scholes.

As they got used more sparingly and played well less frequently we found it harder and harder to score goals. Several years later neither of them have been replaced with anyone even close to the quality of these two at their best. A Giggs and Scholes in their prime is exactly what our current side needs to compete with the best around.

Yeah, it was magnified ten fold post SAF. Giggs, Scholes, Evra, Rio and Vidic; we lost all five too close to each other and their replacements never stepped up. Huge influences both on and off the pitch.

I guess you could point the finger at SAF for not planning well enough. Was also terribly unlucky that his retirement lined up with all of theirs. He was needed to oversee that transition and maybe he had a plan to deal with it.
 
Stats doesn't tell the whole story, but look at our goal tally in our league winning seasons under Fergie plus the 11/12 season:

92/93: 67 (in 42 games)
93/94: 80 (in 42 games)
95/96: 73
96/97: 76
98/99: 80
99/00: 97
00/01: 79
02/03: 74
06/07: 83
07/08: 80
08/09: 68
10/11: 78
11/12: 89
12/13: 86

So despite our zombie passing and whatever it's called, we scored more league goals in Fergie's last two seasons than we did in every other title winning season under him, apart from the record breaking 99/00 season.