Point was moot.
Nordic Ghost Yeti (Scandi Carroll) | Haaland at City
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Point was moot.
I never compared him to any of those players, I've seen an Mbappe comparison and that's it. I brought up Maradona (works just as well with Zidane or Cruyff or numerous other greats) because of this whole insane point you made about 'it doesn't matter how many chances you create if someone doesn't put the ball in the back of the net, therefore the goal poacher is automatically always the most important person on the pitch, QED' and claimed this game as evidence when it is a tie that City won 4-1 with EH scoring the 3 and 4th goals of the tie. So basically they would have won even if he hadn't scored. I just don't get how people can't see that everything in football matches is connected?
Why can't it just be that Haaland scored a really good goal, is an awesome player and leave it at that? Why the nonsense? I don't get it.
Well it's more that people try to equate assists with goals or other metrics with goals, goals aren't everything, but they should be more heavily weighted, this recent trend of goal involvements or goals + assists, lends credence to the idea that the assist is just as important as the goal, but it isn't, scoring is always the most important thing, if someone outperforms a scorer by a significant enough margin in other areas, Maradona vs haaland as per your example, but it really does need to be by quite a significant margin to outweigh the impact that the goals bring. Someone scoring 40 goals is more impressive than 20 goals and 20 assists, because it just is. Now someone doing the second and outperforming the other player by a large margin in every other aspect can still be the better player, but this hipster trend of trying to claim goals aren't that much more important than assists or key passes should probably stop.
And there's a reason for that. As many in this thread have pointed out, Haaland is simply never going to be a guy who can play that many total minutes. He's a machine but isn't an iron man. Guardiola has handled him extremely well, taking him whenever he felt matches were done.
You can't extrapolate that on a linear basis when someone plays less minutes a game than another. Some of his numbers (goals a game and G+A a game will be around Messi's 2013) but other numbers (total goals and total assists) will obviously not be so close.
He's been firing on all cylinders and he's at 53 G+A. It'll be extremely hard to match Messi's 97 G+A in 2012 (nevermind the 114 in the 2012 calendar year).
I wonder if it ever occurred to the people claiming "but Haaland does it in the EPL!" that maybe the EPL haven't had a truly world class striker in ages.
For what it's worth, Haaland is scoring better in the EPL than in the Bundesliga. That should be enough to make one reconsider such claims.
Absolutely
The assist isn't principally more important than the goal and the goal isn't principally more important than the assist. Sometimes the most important play is the pre-assist, sometimes it's the pre-pre-assist, sometimes it might even be an action that's not a touch at all, e. g. a run to pull out a defender (see Werner in the UCL final). As mindblowing as this may sound to you, it's really not a particularly difficult concept to understand.
Is that what you think?
The goal is more important, because you have a goal with no assist, but you can't have an assist with no goal. A great pass can lead to absolutely nothing if the striker misses whereas a great finish has inherent value in football, it's not dependent on anything else
yeah but for 46 of those goals he was waved through by the referee.
As you clearly didn't understand the point, this judgment is also questionable with all due respect.
Dearie me
Well then explain your point if you believe I dont get it.
I mean.......
Read the exchanges. We're talking about the supposed primacy of singular goalscorers over all other players, including players who score but do a lot more besides
I did. Of course anyone would take peak Maradona given the choice. But it is, with all due respect, a moronic point. You are comparing one of, if not the best footballer of all time with a current player. Anyone would take Messi as well. Do a proper comparrisson instead. Ødegaard or Bruno vs Haaland. And then argue your point.
No we aren't, we're saying that goals should be more heavily weighted than anything else. Someone scoring 20 goals while another scores 19 but massively outperforms them isn't saying the 20 goalscorer is better, but when someone I'd scoring at a rate like a haaland that's significantly higher than all his peers, about half a goal a game higher than mbappe, they have to outperform by an absolutely ridiculous margin in other aspects to make up for the extra goals, because goals are weighted more heavily than anything else when judging an attacker. Its not to say you can't make up the difference, but you need to be better by a much bigger margin in those areas
I think Mbappe is a better player. So I reject your odd construction
Yep, it's over. A change of scenery is needed. I hear Madrid is lovely this time of the year.
Asinine post that shows you are as clueless as you initially appeared. Good to know.
Yeah but that's probably based on your obssession with international football being the best judge of a player.
Without the world cup, do you still consider mbappe a better player?
Great argument.
International football is arguably the worst judge of a player in truth especially if your in one of the better nations
What makes you think he‘d want to go to Real?Yep, it's over. A change of scenery is needed. I hear Madrid is lovely this time of the year.
Going to Spain for a holiday is as near as he’ll ever get to RM.
I do agree with this, you see aberrations at the world cup, players bought off the back of one successful tournament that never replicate their form for a club. But the other poster holds world cup performances as the most important way to judge a player, so I felt I should establish whether he believes based on club performances, is mbappe a better player than haaland?
Because it would be particularly unfair to judge haaland as lesser for being born in a nation with no realistic prospects
Insulting another member
Why should I make an argument to someone who is as clueless as you? The logical extension of what he said is that given a hypothetical choice between Haaland and Maradona or Haaland and Zidane, you would have to take Haaland because of the 'extra weighting' of goals vs all other actions on the pitch and fact that he scores 3 or 4 times (or in Zidane's case 10 times) the number of goals that they do. It's a pretty simple point but I guess even that's too hard for you to grasp. He even gave an example saying if one guy scores 19 goals and does a lot else then that doesn't make him less valuable than someone who scores 20 goals and does nowt else, but once the difference in goals gets big.....well then.
Please wake up.
Report them for name-calling. Surprised they haven't been thread banned so far.
What does this even mean?
Yeah you'll have to put it in much simpler terms, I'm afraid!
So you value Lampard over all of Xavi, Pirlo, Zidane and Iniesta because he scored more goals, yes we get it. And you value Gerd Muller over Cruyff and Maradona.
So ultimately, if Haaland scores more goals than anyone in history (unlikely), and win no international trophies (v likely), you will value him more than Pele, Messi and Diego. Yes we understand. He will truly be the greatest of all time.
Laughable. Despite the guys insane record to date, all he has to show is a 10th place Ballon D'or finish and a German Cup. Mbappe, by 22, had a world cup, a CL final and semi, and FOUR consecutive top 10 Balon Dor finishes. At the end of this year, he will be on SIX consecutive top 10 Ballon D'or finishes, after top scoring at a World Cup and cementing his legacy in that very competition. That is what you call real impact.
Whats up with the personal insults? How the heck did you get promoted with this kind of behaviour....
I haven't called anyone names, please stop lying. I have however, had a post of mine described as 'moronic'. You have also insulted me, so I think I may report you.
So you call my post 'moronic' and then claim I am insulting you? ok
If anything, assists are harder to come by than goals. The top assisters tables peak at 15-20 in most seasons.
But yes, a goal creation is just as valuable as the final touch. Mbappe does a better job of doing the former than Haaland but the latter does a better job of doing the latter.
I think @Lyng came in the middle of a conversation and might have misunderstood the discussion. Hence the "sign peak Maradona, then" post. But yeah, calling someone's post moronic and then talking about the responder being aggressive is a little...off.
I said your point was, and that was in response to several posts to me claiming I was lacking any understanding of the discussion made.
No but seriously. Controversies with impropriety by City really have nothing do with Haaland on the field. He's pretty good, isn't he?The comparrisson of Maradona was odd for me, because he could clearly create and score loads, and basically win games by himself. Not something neither Haaland nor Mbappe could, and the type of player that Maradona was such an outlier that it seemed weird to bring him up.
I think only Guardiola could stop him from breaking Messi’s goal record in a season, by “managing” his playing minutes on the pitch.
And yes, I think he is most likely to improve over the next few years.
If we look at Messi and Ronaldo, they start entering their goalscoring peak at around age 22-23, and then reached their very peak at around age 25, and then managed to extend their outstanding goalscoring form (~50 goals per season) until their early 30s.
I think Haaland could most definitely likely to replicate similar up to his mid-late 20s at the very least, if he stay injury free for most part. What we don’t know here is how well could he cope with his loss of pace or physical dominance once he approach his early 30s, as those are big part of his game.
But even so, over the next few seasons if he could keep this kind of rate, we could see him hitting more than a few 50, 60 or 70+ goals per season (could even reach 80 if Pep allows him to play that much), that will be quite scary indeed.
Maradona is clearly in a separate bracket, I agree. But I also feel that Mbappe does win matches by himself. He cant single handidly dominate a match the way Messi and Maradona can, but can and has exerted his dominance on matches in a way Haaland can't because the latter is mainly a great goalscorer but not as well rounded as a footballer.
You see Mbappe and Haaland as similar in terms of impact (if I understand this post) while the poster you're replying to thinks Mbappe does more on the pitch and is more valuable. I think that's the point of contention here.
My personal point of view is actually more in line with Zehners. I think both the build up and the goal is extremely important. United is a good example. We create a massive amount of chances but lack that clinical striker.
In regards ot mbappe vs Haaland, I actually prefer Mbappe as a player, but given our team would think Haaland would bring more value to us than Mbappe.
Basically what the whole thing boils down to is, whatever the teams setup is any given player might be more useful.