Sure, other stats come in to it, but goals decide games, and a player that scores at the kind of rate haaland does is incredibly effective regardless of his key passes or touches on the ball. He's not just scoring at a better rate than mbappe, he's scoring an extra half goal a game or so, in a much tougher league, that's not the kind of difference that can be made up with a few extra touches on the ball or key passes
Nordic Ghost Yeti (Scandi Carroll) | Haaland at City
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Sure, other stats come in to it, but goals decide games, and a player that scores at the kind of rate haaland does is incredibly effective regardless of his key passes or touches on the ball. He's not just scoring at a better rate than mbappe, he's scoring an extra half goal a game or so, in a much tougher league, that's not the kind of difference that can be made up with a few extra touches on the ball or key passes
Haaland scored 86 goals in 89 appearances for Dortmund. During that time they won one cup, in which Jadon Sancho scored double the goals that he did. He's scored 47 goals for City, they are currently behind Arsenal in the league and have less points than at the same stage last season. What you are saying just displays a complete lack of understanding of the game, I'm afraid.
For now
Different argument, but personally i find Haaland entertaining in his brilliance
If he keeps this level up, no. If he starts putting up multiple 70+ goals season, or even 80+ goals season, then we're gonna need to reevaluate
Let's start with ONE 70 or 80 goal season first perhaps. Seeing as he's nowhere near actually having even one of those at present.
I think you're the one with the lack of understanding.
If you put peak Messi in Nottingham forest this year, he'd be the most effective player in the league. Nottingham forest would not win the league, but Messi would have contributed the most of any player and made the most difference to results. These are not contradictory. If I'm not wrong it's city's defence thats largely let them down this year, having already conceded more goals this year than in total last year.
Very impressive!
To be fair even peak Messi playing for Dortmund won’t beat Bayern in BL.
And City is definitely on course to win the PL this season after Arsenal drawing the game yesterday. Don’t foul yourself and pretend it isn’t the case. They could as well win the treble too, and match our best ever season.
This is one of the craziest posts I've seen on here. Current Haaland with his 1 German Cup and 1 10th place finish in last years Ballon D'or (Mbappe has had 5 top 10 finishes already) has had similar impact on football to 22 year old Phenomeno? No 22 year old in football history (possibly bar <10 Messi/ early Pele with his 2 world cups) has reached such heights and had such an impact. He was genuinely at his peak and was operating at an individual level arguably only ever touched by peak Messi, Diego, Pele, Cristiano. Balon Dor, World Player of the world awards, Cups galore, he had moved to Serie A and genuinely terrified some of the greatest defenders of all time (ie Cannavaro/ Nesta/ Maldini). “Ronaldo was the only player who really stirred fear in me. Just walking on the same pitch as he did was terrifying for me,” wrote Cannavaro in 2018.
“He was an alien among humans,” said the great Gigi Buffon. “Ronaldo? Mamma mia! What a player,” reflected Roberto Baggio. “He came from the future. He played football with technique and speed ahead of his time. I saw him do things that were unthinkable, which no one had done or thought of until then. He was unique.”
That right there is called impact. Current Haaland is light years behind the impact, ability, achievements and extra terrestrial level peak 22 year old Phenomeno had. He will never be considered as greater.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ronaldo-barcelona-inter-serie-a-la-liga-italy
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Comparing playing for Nottingham Forest to Manchester City and Borussia Dortmund. Utterly clueless, with all due respect
Dortmund won the league with Lewandowski, Kagawa and those boys against the most successful Bayern side ever (the subsequent treble winning team) so I'm not sure why you think it's impossible, seeing as Haaland is so 'effective' and everything, so much more so than Mbappe apparently. Who won ligue un with Monaco over PSG as a teenager, no less.
Also, with City, I'm talking about the facts as they stand. I have no idea what will happen in the future and neither do you. They could win the treble or they could win nothing. Or one trophy. Or two of the three. As things stand right now, for all Haaland's 'effectiveness' they are second. Last year at this time, they were first.
The point is not to denigrate Haaland, who is obviously a great player. The point is that it is foolish to say that he is more effective than another player because he scores more goals, when that player plays wide on the left.
Firstly you could probably question if anything has really let City down this season, given how they're currently playing. Secondly I'm pretty sure that if Haaland played for Forest, he'd be likely to have provided them with a fairly noticeable increase on the 24 goals they have managed as a team so far this season. Thirdly, there's a wee bit of difference in how different types of players influence the general play of their team. A player in a central and free role like Messi spend most of the game in the areas where the ball most frequently is, and influence almost everything directly, players who are positionally on the periphery of the action more or less by definition less so.
I figure people invoking Ronaldo are too young to know what kind of esteem he was and is regarded in.
Ronaldo was being talked about in discussions as best ever at 21. This cover wasn't out of place or out of pocket at the time.
Comparing Haaland to Ronaldo is basically diminishing Haaland, for no particular reason.
It is not "nostalgia" or romanticism of the past, but it's really silly how quickly he is drawn into these conversations. In fact, some of the other names being questioned are bizarre (Maradona, ffs) but... it is what it is, I suppose.
Ronaldo was being talked about in discussions as best ever at 21. This cover wasn't out of place or out of pocket at the time.
Comparing Haaland to Ronaldo is basically diminishing Haaland, for no particular reason.
It is not "nostalgia" or romanticism of the past, but it's really silly how quickly he is drawn into these conversations. In fact, some of the other names being questioned are bizarre (Maradona, ffs) but... it is what it is, I suppose.
Nah. The second highest goal scorer in a calendar year is still Gerd Müller and nobody reevaluates if he belongs in a tier with Pelé, Messi and Maradona.
I think a more fitting discussion would be whether Haaland is the best player at City. I'd still opt for de Bruyne.
Well I think if Haaland won the treble with City by end of this season, they would have a more comparable standings. I am not arguing L.Ronaldo isn’t better, in fact he is the best player I’ve ever seen at that age. But Haaland is on his way to match that with his impact made this season.
Goals - I think Haaland will win, he has easily better goal ratio. He even has better goal ratio than Messi best season. Now that’s insane.
Haaland: 203+ goals in 206+ games
L.Ronaldo: 208 goals in 244 games
Records - I think Haaland’s record is more impressive.
Haaland: on his way to break PL record on most goals in a season. 34 goals in 27 CL games (best scoring ratio in CL, most goals in first 27 games). On the way to become player with most goals at age 22
L.Ronaldo: most goal in Europe in season 96-97. Player with most goals at age 22
Trophies/Honours - L.Ronaldo wins.
Haaland: won 4 minor club cup trophies so far (3x with Salzburg, 1x with Dortmund). On his way to win PL, and possibly treble with City this season. Likely contender for Ballon D’or.
L.Ronaldo: won 4 club cup trophies (1x with PSV, 2x with Barca, 1x with Inter), they are not major ones, but 2nd rated European trophies are still nice trophies. Won Copa with Brazil as best player. 2nd place in WC with Brazil as best player. Won Ballon D’or at age 21.
Individual brilliance/dominance - L.Ronaldo wins, but Haaland as no.9 has shown level of dominance this season which is unseen since the peak days of L.Ronaldo/Messi/Cristiano. Not quite in the same way as he lacks skills, but he is so far better than any other no.9 in the game which is insane.
Overall speaking, L.Ronaldo wins in terms of overall impact but I don’t think he is light years ahead, as Haaland is going to over take him in terms of goals and records at same age, and there is chance Haaland would have better club trophies success too by end of this season (should City won PL, CL or even treble)
Summary:
Goals/Records: Haaland
Club success: Possibly Haaland, but so far it’s L.Ronaldo
International success: L.Ronaldo
Individual dominance: L.Ronaldo (but Haaland is getting there this season)
True. And nobody besides Messi has gotten anywhere near that much in the modern era. Ronaldo in all his years failed to reach 70 even once. And so did Lewandowski.
There's more to football than just being a goal scorer, but I think his point is that if Haaland does begin to set all time goalscoring records, it's going to be tough to dismiss in in these discussions (if he wins multiple balon dors, it will have much more of an impact on his standing than scoring 70 goals in calendar years, as you pointed out).
I don't see him reaching 91 in a year. Or 73 in a season. But if he does, I think it'll be very noteworthy.
Also, I think it's fairly obvious that his offensive contributions go a good deal further than just racking up goals. He's got 5 assists - tied for third on City (So does quite a few other players, but there are very few with much more than that (4 players with 8 assists or more) It's a good level - more than Foden or Guimaraes, for example). His constant and intelligent movement up front creates space for everyone else, and in itself contributes to pushing the defending team back. And at least compared to most other elite attackers, he's pretty diligent on the press and also contributes defensively to a fair extent, and certainly enough to not be a liability. Which means that his offense doesn't come at the sort of team cost PSG is paying for having the likes of Mbappe and Neymar on their front line.
I remember you opted for Sancho rather than Haaland at Dortmund too. Let’s just be honest it’s all subjective.
Comparing playing for Nottingham Forest to Manchester City and Borussia Dortmund. Utterly clueless, with all due respect
He hasn't even finished his first season at city and they're currently favourites for every competition they're still in, using that as a mark against him seems unfair
The reason he is compared to Ronaldo is of course because he is scoring goals at a higher rate than anyone has in the last 50 years at his age. He is doing it in the toughest league, in the CL and for his country. He is 22 and at the very start of his career. If City wins the PL and CL he'll win the Ballon d'or ahead of a WC winning Messi. He is crushing every record possible in this debut season in the PL despite being heavily minute managed, he is 15 goals ahead of the closest contender in club goals in all comps this season across Europe ahead of Mbappe who scored 5 against a tier 7 team in the cup. He is contributing for City at a peak Messi rate (well ahead of peak CR7) this season, 22 years old and will most probably improve the next few years. We haven't seen a goalscoring freak like this before. R9 was a totally different player and #9 with more 1 v 1 skills, but he was at no point in his career scoring goals at the rate Haaland has this season. Haaland is unique in his way and R9 is unique in his way. Haaland is by far the best striker on the planet right now. His legacy will depend on him staying clear of serious injury and how full his trophy cabinet is when his career is over 15 years from now. He might very well end up on top of the list and he might not. Impossible to say at this stage, but what he's done since he moved to Salzburg is ahead of everyone else on sheer numbers the last 50 years. Far ahead. If he now starts adding big trophies and ballon d'ors to his CV, it'll be tough to leave him out of GOAT discussions in the future.I figure people invoking Ronaldo are too young to know what kind of esteem he was and is regarded in.
Ronaldo was being talked about in discussions as best ever at 21. This cover wasn't out of place or out of pocket at the time.
Comparing Haaland to Ronaldo is basically diminishing Haaland, for no particular reason.
It is not "nostalgia" or romanticism of the past, but it's really silly how quickly he is drawn into these conversations. In fact, some of the other names being questioned are bizarre (Maradona, ffs) but... it is what it is, I suppose.
I love R9 and watching him every week preinjury was the sickest thing I've seen on a pitch, up to now. In a different way, because R9 and Haaland have very different skillsets, but the way Haaland is so physical dominant and makes it look like you're watching a man play against boys while putting up historically unmatches numbers in the toughest league in the world and in the CL. We haven't seen it before and many don't understand how crazy the numbers really is.
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Especially since even Müller's insane goals coring record wasn't even enough to be considered better than Beckenbauer who scored <100 goals over his whole career and Cruyff who had a very good goal record but nowhere near Pelé or Messi.
Before people were bombarded with "player x scored y goals in z games", there was much more attention to how much you contribute all things considered.
Yeah, I'd take Dortmund Sancho over Dortmund Haaland. This is basically the same discussion as Messi vs Ronaldo since it's always about the underlying notion that just looking at goal records is an inaccurate measurement of a player. Watch a random City game after your memory of faces and names has been erased and few people would think Haaland is the best player on that team.
But you're looking at one stat in which Haaland indeed has reached unprecedented heights. But at the same time, he is a) very mediocre in many other stats and b) profits enormously from a huge goal inflation compared to R9's days.
Haaland is obviously a great player but the superficialty that's so prevalent in debates about strikers like him really is a bit annoying. It's just so ignorant.
Knocks me sick thinking about it.
I still fancied the kunts to win the league when they were 8/9 points behind the Gunners. If they get Bellingham might as well call it the Scottish Premier League because rest of us are still miles behind.
I'd like to see him live to get a proper look at what exactly makes him so domineering. Watching on the tv doesn't do justice because his goals look basic. A lot of tap ins. A lot of low first time shots from cut backs which City have done for years. But the quantity of his goals are ridiculous. Is he just so much bigger and faster - an unusual combination of athleticism to have - that he gets more of these "right place right time" chances like it is a law of nature.
Van Nistelrooy was similar in that most of his goals were basic but the fact he scored so many was an art in itself. For what its worth I think Ruud had a bit more skill to make chances for himself in the box out of nothing than Haaland. But then even his best season has been eclipsed by Haaland already.
Van Nistelrooy was similar in that most of his goals were basic but the fact he scored so many was an art in itself. For what its worth I think Ruud had a bit more skill to make chances for himself in the box out of nothing than Haaland. But then even his best season has been eclipsed by Haaland already.
Hate that this has to be repeatedly pointed out. Ignorant is the right word, that, or some serious cognitive dissonance.
I'm not using anything as a mark against him. City are favourites for every competition every year. I'm just talking about things as they stand now. I think saying that Haaland is more 'effective' than Mbappe because he scores more goals is silly. They play different positions. I'm not saying Haaland is not a great player or that he hasn't done amazingly well this season. As I said before, I was convinced that he would take the PL by storm, whereas others predicted he would be a bust because other people from the Bundesliga had flopped in England.
I saw him twice live for Dortmund and I thought his most impressive skill was probably his movement off the ball, he is always moving, not just his runs but he moves a lot into positions from where he can make those runs and then there is his physicality that you mentioned. The guy dwarfs pretty much everyone on the field, often enough even defenders, and then he starts these explosive sprints that leave everyone in the dust and you think "how can a guy that big be so fast?" it feels like it shouldn't be possible but then you realise that a lot of it is down to the movement he does before he makes his runs for the ball, he'll often just move horizontally to the defensive line only to explode and cut inside in just two steps, but I think it's his build that allows him to be so explosive for his size.
Another skill I think he has is one that doesn't show as much on the pitch, and I'd probably have to watch him more often to confirm this, but it feels like he knows where he needs to move depending on which player has the ball. For example, with KdB he tends to go to the far post because he knows KdB is deadly with his crosses, with Grealish he stays more in the middle because he knows he is either going to shoot or try a through ball. So he is superb at understanding how his teammates play and offering them runs that are easy for them to pick up.
So much hyperbole in this post. For the record, I like City to win the CL this year. I'm not sure about the league, I think Arsenal are being too readily written off. If City do win the treble then a lot of people will start making ridiculous claims about Haaland but I don't think City winning the treble makes Haaland a better player than Mbappe. And I'm no massive Mbappe fan either.
He is 22 years old. If his numbers were just good you'd have a point, but they are not only good. They are the best we've seen in European football post WW2.
Even compared to Messi's11/22 season (73 goals for Barca in all comps) the numbers are insane:
Messi 11/12 - 72 miunutes per goal
Haaland 22/23 - 65 minutes per goal
Since he joined Dortmund at 19, he's scored a goal every 77 minutes on the pitch for Dortmund and City. (Messi: every 95 minutes for barca, CR7: every 84 minutes for Real Madrid and R9: every 90 minutes for Barca 96/97)
Champions league/European champions club cup (all time list):
#1 Haaland: 1,56 minutes/goal
#2 Gerd Muller: 0,97 minutes/goal
#3 Lewandowski: 0,86 minutes/goal
#3 Altafini: 0,86 minutes/goal
#3 Messi: 0,86 minutes/goal
#6 Puskas: 0,85 minutes/goal
#7 Di Stefano: 0,84 minutes/goal
#8 Aguas: 0,82 minutes/goal
#9 CR7: 0,79 minutes/goal
#10 Papin: 0,76 minutes/goal
#11 Eusebio: 0,75 minutes/goal
R9: 0,43 minutes/goal
That list is complete madness. His job isn't to go deep and pick up the ball, it isn't to dribble past defenders or distribute from the circle.
There hasn't been strikers like him before, so there hasn't been debates about strikers like him before. There has been built superteams around great players (like Lewa, Messi, CR7 etc.) in the past as well, it's not like he's a first in that department. Either you don't understand the numbers or you're extremely biased against #9's for some reason.
You might find it annoying that people compare the greatness of a specialist to an allrounder, but as long as he puts up numbers like this, it will not go away. And no, it's not ignorant.
See, and that's exactly what I mean. If you believe Haaland is a striker that influences a game by his presence alone in the same way as the past greats did, alright, that's something we can discuss. But this?
I mean, you're right, the list you posted indeed is madness. It is madness because it is comparing oranges with apples. Haaland was born over 70 years (!) after Puskas and di Stefano. And yet you compare their goal stats as if they were normalized. Don't you think it plays a role whether you played in the Serie A in the 90s when teams won league titles with less than 40 goals or in the 2020s in the Bundesliga? I don't know if you're familiar with A/B testing but this right here is the exact opposite of it. And that's just one dimension of probably thousands that mess with the comparability of a metric that's terrible to capture the overall impact a player has on his team's performance to begin with.
And I'm not biased against number 9s. I'm merely pointing out that a goal record is a very superficial statistic and that the current obsession with it is unfair on players who contribute by many invaluable plays that aren't reflected in their scoring statistics, regardless of position. In a debate vs Haaland, that works as much in favor of Messi or R9 as it does in favor of someone like Kane, Firmino or Suarez.
I'd love a weighted metric table to be constructed. Goals in 80's Serie A etc. worth double or whatever it would be to see how an adjusted table actually looks.
Goals are not 1:1 across the decades.
Goals are not 1:1 across the decades.
Stop with the utterly clueless nonsense. Clearly you have an agenda against Haaland.Comparing playing for Nottingham Forest to Manchester City and Borussia Dortmund. Utterly clueless, with all due respect
He is doing things in the EPL that no one has done before. There is a good chance City win the treble which would be terrible but if they they do then Haaland is the difference maker. If he continues to do this throughout his career then of course he would be in top 10 GOAT status.
Yes, would be interesting to see some takes on this.
I remember discussing it briefly on here a while back. One aspect we looked was (as I recall) total team goals (in, say, a league season)/individual goals ratio.
There will likely be problems with pretty much any approach to this, I'd imagine, but it's obvious that certain players would have been much more prolific if their individual circumstances had been different (strength of team, nature of competition): it should be possible to quantify this at least to some degree.
I don't have any agenda against Haaland. Maybe you are a fanboy of his, in which case you should probably support the club he plays for
Out of the list of 10 other players he has listed, only one of them has played in Serie A in the 90s for 2 seasons only. Yet you are trying to use this example to refute his whole claim, that's very odd, and irrelevant.
In fact, Haaland scoring that many goals in PL/CL in modern time, is far more impressive than those other names mentioned, who are far lower down in their scoring rate. Put Haaland in the same Hungarian league like Puskas did in 40s-50s, he could have scored 80-100 goals every season. I mean, just look at those all time top scorer in Hungarian league, they are all from those very old period of time when football don't have real defenders and teams didn't have much of intensity or defensive awareness, and football is full of semi-professional part timers.
Szusza 1950-1961: 393 goals in 462 games
Szsengelier 1935-1947: 387 goals in 325 games
Takacs 1920-1940: 360 goals in 355 games
Puskas 1943-1956: 357 goals in 354 games
Sarosi: 1931-1948: 351 goals in 383 games
Szilagyi 1943-1960: 313 goals in 390 games
Deak 1944-1954: 305 games in 238 games
Hidegkuti 1942-1958: 256 goals in 381 games
Kocsis 1945-1956: 247 goals in 244 games
Everyone of them score like or even better than Messi and Ronaldo during their peak back in those time. Joke of an era in defending really.
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My bad, obviously all leagues are pretty much comparable apart from Serie A in the 90s - that's the only standout league/era combination there is, the rest is basically the same.
That's a very good post. People need to understand things he is doing right now at the highest level of football, is near impossible. In PL these days if you score 20 goals you are widely regarded as world class, I mean just look at how many top class strikers Chelsea has bought for hundreds of millions but still struggle to score a goal here.
He can comfortably reach that figure in just around half season.
People in this thread are repeatedly saying "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW CRAZY THESE NUMBERS ARE!!!!"
We do understand. We all learned how to count when we were small children.
The point is that while we admire his power, dynamism, athleticism and determination to score, some of us are not going to go ga-ga over somebody purely because of numbers. That's just the way it is.
Since we are at it, anyone knows R9 vs Haaland age and goal pr min ratio?