No relegation battle. Has the money in the PL made it a de facto ”Superleague ”?

Pintu

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Southampton have already set a new record for the earliest ever relegation… Leicester will very likely get relegated today… And Ipswish who are 15 points and 20 goals margin away from safety, only kept in by West Ham’s blunder yesterday will get relegated next Saturday.

This will be the second season in a row in which all the promoted teams are sent straight back to the lower tier… The promoted teams do get a lot of money for that one season but nowhere near enough to compete with the accumulated wealth of established PL teams…

Do we need a different model with more PL money going to the Championship ?

Edit: or a relegation playoff including the bottom 5 instead of the bottom 3. Let’s say the 20th is relegated while 17th and 16th would face the 18th and 19th ?
 
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I think it was a particularly bad set of teams, although last year wasn't great either. Burnley have a chance to stay up next year if they can keep their defence intact, only 14 goals conceded in 43 games is the sort of grit that might be able to stay up. A lot of the teams coming up have squads to dominate at a lower level and then try to play the same way.

The level of pressing from PL teams is another level to the Championship, you can't be religious to passing out the back and get punished like they have been. The teams also just don't have good enough defences. Last year Southampton conceded 63 goals in the Championship and got promoted through the playoffs. You are getting destroyed in the PL if you go up with that many goals conceded, their defence was nowhere near good enough and Russell Martin's tactics just weren't going to work against better teams as has proven. Kompany getting the Bayern job despite getting relegated as he played the right way will only encourage more of this.
 
There’s nothing ‘Super’ about it, it’s a very average league with us being one of the worst in it.
 
There's obviously a big gap between the championship and the premier league and it's becoming a big issue. It's not a coincidence that they're all going back down. The worst sides who will stay in the premier league still have the ability to spend big and have quality players like Branthwaite, Cunha, Ait Nouri, Kudus, Paqueta, etc. You have regulars of big national teams like Germany and Brazil playing at the lower end of the Prem. United and Spurs are 14th and 16th, yet are somewhat comfortably in the semi final of the Europa league, being favourites every step of the way so far.

The very top end, yes there are similar level clubs around Europe. Arsenal and Liverpool this season, typically city, can be joined by both Madrids, Barca, PSG, Bayern, Inter... But the level below the top 3 or so in the other leagues is drastically lower than it is in the premier league and that's where the difference lies.
 
Leeds could potentially break the mould next season.

Burnley and (if they win the play off) Sheffield United however would need Trafford and Cooper to be borderline unbeatable.
 
Everybody has converged in the middle. The top teams have fallen back into the pack and the usual relegation scrappers have clawed themselves up, and any promoted teams are even further away than they've ever been.

I don't know how you fix it, I don't think a bit more PL money is enough. You look at the standard of players at the likes of West Ham. Championship clubs can't get close.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
I think it was a particularly bad set of teams, although last year wasn't great either. Burnley have a chance to stay up next year if they can keep their defence intact, only 14 goals conceded in 43 games is the sort of grit that might be able to stay up. A lot of the teams coming up have squads to dominate at a lower level and then try to play the same way.

The level of pressing from PL teams is another level to the Championship, you can't be religious to passing out the back and get punished like they have been. The teams also just don't have good enough defences. Last year Southampton conceded 63 goals in the Championship and got promoted through the playoffs. You are getting destroyed in the PL if you go up with that many goals conceded, their defence was nowhere near good enough and Russell Martin's tactics just weren't going to work against better teams as has proven. Kompany getting the Bayern job despite getting relegated as he played the right way will only encourage more of this.
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Burnley can hoof the ball every single possession and that won't increase their chances of staying up
 
adexkola said:
Burnley can hoof the ball every single possession and that won't increase their chances of staying up
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Guarantee they’d have more points than they did when they went down.

Issue is all these teams try and play out from the back in the Prem and it doesn’t work (sure it works in the Championship) where there are vastly better players.

They don’t have the quality to play out from the back and do not change it and get punished week in week out.

Hoofing it and playing long ball teams like Ipswich and Southampton would have won more games than they have done
 
Better tactics would help. Was it Burnley last time who kept trying to play out the back even though it was clear they weren't capable of it?

Need to go Bolton/Stoke style
 
It's tactical suicide to play out from the back with the vastly inferior quality of players championship teams have. But still they all did it this year.

Need to play a different way to have any hope of staying up.
 
in bygone years many of the successful promoted teams played a jose or fat sam kind of style, which if you have a far inferior budget is probably your best chance of staying up

that seems to be changing a bit too? Everyones trying to play football now, which is basically what the big teams wants because then it just comes down to a mismatch of finances
 
didz said:
Seemed to last time.
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UnitedSofa said:
Guarantee they’d have more points than they did when they went down.

Issue is all these teams try and play out from the back in the Prem and it doesn’t work (sure it works in the Championship) where there are vastly better players.

They don’t have the quality to play out from the back and do not change it and get punished week in week out.

Hoofing it and playing long ball teams like Ipswich and Southampton would have won more games than they have done
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The gap between Ipswich and a horrible West Ham team is 15 points.

The teams due to be relegated are just so far behind the rest of the pack in terms of personnel quality. You won't find an extra 15-25 points simply by going agricultural and hoofing it. Because most PL teams now relish the idea of going at a parked bus, and such setups will end with at least 1 goal conceded by your park the bus team. Then what? Hoof and second ball your way to a goal draw or win?

I did this exercise with Middlesbrough earlier in the season in response to a claim that Carrick's poor run was due to excessive playing out the back; only 20% of goals conceded in that time frame was actually due to this tactic and most goals were just in the natural run of play

Blaming "playing out the back" is so cliche and English
 
adexkola said:
The gap between Ipswich and a horrible West Ham team is 15 points.

The teams due to be relegated are just so far behind the rest of the pack in terms of personnel quality. You won't find an extra 15-25 points simply by going agricultural and hoofing it. Because most PL teams now relish the idea of going at a parked bus, and such setups will end with at least 1 goal conceded by your park the bus team. Then what? Hoof and second ball your way to a goal draw or win?

I did this exercise with Middlesbrough earlier in the season in response to a claim that Carrick's poor run was due to excessive playing out the back; only 20% of goals conceded in that time frame was actually due to this tactic and most goals were just in the natural run of play

Blaming "playing out the back" is so cliche and English
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Forest are providing a template on now you can succeed in the premier league without having the ball much, they've got the lowest possession stats of any team in the league.

It's much cheaper to build a team that has a high % chance stay up with their tactics than trying to copy City... This pep ball is the trendy style now and nearly all teams copy it.

Surprising other teams haven't tried similar to Forest going back the other way, maybe next season the promoted sides will.
 
I remember Thomas Frank saying he had to change the way Brentford played in order to stay up and then year by year he'd gradually move closer to how he ideally wants them to play, he's done brilliantly but it's probably worked against him in terms of getting a bigger job.
 
Ollie Derbyshire said:
None. I don’t think any league is particularly super at the minute.
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Then your point makes no sense. If the PL is average then there are leagues that are better. I personally don't think any league in the world is better.
 
AdamColeBebe said:
Then your point makes no sense. If the PL is average then there are leagues that are better. I personally don't think any league in the world is better.
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It makes sense if I think football is generally average across the board, there doesn’t have to be better ones. Liverpool has walked the league this season and yet haven’t had to get to the same level as previous seasons when they came 2nd to City. City are a shadow of there usual selves. Chelsea, Tottenham, and obviously ourselves are all very poor. Arsenal have faulted badly in the PL when it was there for the taking if they could have pushed on.

Have the mid table teams got better, sure, have the old top of the table teams got worse, without a doubt. I don’t think the quality has improved more it’s evening out.
 
Mb194dc said:
Forest are providing a template on now you can succeed in the premier league without having the ball much, they've got the lowest possession stats of any team in the league.
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Yeah, they spent shitloads of money to hire competent management which then spent shitloads of money to sign PL quality players that would not look out of place at bigger clubs, with a focus on pace, physicality and skill, got an incredible season from their goalie, and lots and lots of luck

Promoted teams need to buy brand new teams to compete in CL - it's extremely difficult to pull that off. Worse yet, with the PSR regulations we're now seeing clubs fecking up their finances to get promoted, and then being unbale to sign new players because of it - hence Leicester immediately going back down and their own fans fully expecting that to happen
Mb194dc said:
It's much cheaper to build a team that has a high % chance stay up with their tactics than trying to copy City... This pep ball is the trendy style now and nearly all teams copy it
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It is, but it doesn't matter as much. Basically, spend a lot of money and hope you land a couple stars who can keep you up. Tactics aren't all that important in this. So long as the manager doesn't get in the team's way
 
Mb194dc said:
Forest are providing a template on now you can succeed in the premier league without having the ball much, they've got the lowest possession stats of any team in the league.

It's much cheaper to build a team that has a high % chance stay up with their tactics than trying to copy City... This pep ball is the trendy style now and nearly all teams copy it.

Surprising other teams haven't tried similar to Forest going back the other way, maybe next season the promoted sides will.
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Forest aren't the template at all.

If Luton hadn't been so shite or Burnley not just been used as an audition platform for Kompany to get a bigger job, Forest would have been relegated having spent a shit ton of money and been docked points for doing so in breach of the rules.

Forest's 32 points post-deduction would have seen them relegated in 12 of the previous 13 seasons. It was basically a gamble that just paid off.
 
Alex99 said:
Forest aren't the template at all.

If Luton hadn't been so shite or Burnley not just been used as an audition platform for Kompany to get a bigger job, Forest would have been relegated having spent a shit ton of money and been docked points for doing so in breach of the rules.

Forest's 32 points post-deduction would have seen them relegated in 12 of the previous 13 seasons. It was basically a gamble that just paid off.
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Forest got 4 points deducted and performed like a midtable club, but were unlucky with the bounces(the opposite of this season). Luton and Burnley barely had 4 PL caliber players between the 2 of them. They were never staying up
 
Pintu said:
a relegation playoff including the bottom 5 instead of the bottom 3. Let’s say the 20th is relegated while 17th and 16th would face the 18th and 19th ?
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You trying to send United to the championship? You may not sign your posts with #YAWN but I know what you are
 
They might have to think about a playoff system to give a Championship club the opportunity to stay up otherwise it's going to become a closed shop for the 17 teams.
 
giorno said:
Forest got 4 points deducted and performed like a midtable club, but were unlucky with the bounces(the opposite of this season). Luton and Burnley barely had 4 PL caliber players between the 2 of them. They were never staying up
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I don't give a toss about the "on paper" quality of their squads or whether they "were unlucky with the bounces".

The reality of the situation was that they were extremely close to going back down and relying on three teams being as bad as Luton, Burnley and Sheffield United were is not a model for other clubs to follow.
 
Ollie Derbyshire said:
It makes sense if I think football is generally average across the board, there doesn’t have to be better ones. Liverpool has walked the league this season and yet haven’t had to get to the same level as previous seasons when they came 2nd to City. City are a shadow of there usual selves. Chelsea, Tottenham, and obviously ourselves are all very poor. Arsenal have faulted badly in the PL when it was there for the taking if they could have pushed on.

Have the mid table teams got better, sure, have the old top of the table teams got worse, without a doubt. I don’t think the quality has improved more it’s evening out.
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There literally does. Otherwise there's nothing to compare it to, to call it average. The PL is well above average.
 
Alex99 said:
I don't give a toss about the "on paper" quality of their squads or whether they "were unlucky with the bounces".

The reality of the situation was that they were extremely close to going back down and relying on three teams being as bad as Luton, Burnley and Sheffield United were is not a model for other clubs to follow.
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Except when "3 teams as bad as Luton, Burnley and Sheffiled United" becomes the norm. Which is what this thread is about, since it happened again this season. Forest incurred that penalty because they had to buy an entire new team to compete in the PL. Luton, Burnley, Leicester, Ipswich, etc, have not, and they never had a chance
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
I think it was a particularly bad set of teams, although last year wasn't great either. Burnley have a chance to stay up next year if they can keep their defence intact, only 14 goals conceded in 43 games is the sort of grit that might be able to stay up. A lot of the teams coming up have squads to dominate at a lower level and then try to play the same way.

The level of pressing from PL teams is another level to the Championship, you can't be religious to passing out the back and get punished like they have been. The teams also just don't have good enough defences. Last year Southampton conceded 63 goals in the Championship and got promoted through the playoffs. You are getting destroyed in the PL if you go up with that many goals conceded, their defence was nowhere near good enough and Russell Martin's tactics just weren't going to work against better teams as has proven. Kompany getting the Bayern job despite getting relegated as he played the right way will only encourage more of this.
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I don't think so, Kompany getting the job was an aberration, he was like their 8th choice. Even the fact he's winning the Bundesliga is due to how strong Bayern are compared to the rest.
 
SilentWitness said:
They might have to think about a playoff system to give a Championship club the opportunity to stay up otherwise it's going to become a closed shop for the 17 teams.
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It’s not a closed shop. Fulham, Bournemouth, Forest, Villa, Brentford etc have all been promoted in the last 5 years and managed to establish themselves in the division. Leicester were challenging the top six not long ago. The people in charge there have somehow made a bigger mess than what the United board have done.

Ipswich had little chance of staying up. The other two made disastrous management changes, which didn’t work for them. Wolves and Everton made management changes and it worked for them. Leicester were better off keeping Cooper than hiring RVN. They should have replaced Cooper with someone with more experience than RVN. Southampton should have sacked Martin earlier, once they realised he was going to be too one dimensional for the league. They replaced him with a manager who was sacked from Roma after two months in charge.
 
I'm not sure it's the money, I just think the quality of football and managers by even the lower teams has elevated the league. Teams like Bournemouth, Forest and Fulham would never have previously been top half teams, but they are. So you've basically got a team like West Ham in 17th, Wolves in 16th who are one of the most in-form teams in the league, and then us and Spurs who are in the Europa League semi-final. There is no championship club that can compete with that until one of them spends a serious amount of money and finds a manager with a style of play like Iraola.

Ipswich and McKenna probably got the closest but they also had league one level players in their squad so McKenna didn't have enough to work with.
 
giorno said:
Except when "3 teams as bad as Luton, Burnley and Sheffiled United" becomes the norm. Which is what this thread is about, since it happened again this season. Forest incurred that penalty because they had to buy an entire new team to compete in the PL. Luton, Burnley, Leicester, Ipswich, etc, have not, and they never had a chance
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And I referenced their points deduction and the reason why they received it.

They were 6 points clear of Luton after it. You said yourself they were unlucky through the season, which means a couple more games of bad luck/Luton getting a bit of luck would have sent them down.

All I'm saying is that spending so much that you end up getting docked points is not a model for other clubs to follow. What exactly is controversial about that?
 
It'll probably change eventually but next season I predict the 3 promoted sides will go straight back down again. It's difficult to see who else could be in trouble. A lot of the small clubs are too well run right now to go down. Us and Spurs are an absolute shambles but both clubs are way too big to get relegated.

Wolves are currently on a 5 game winning streak so unless they fall off a cliff in the summer they'll probably be ok. I suppose West Ham could be in the mix?
 
Bojan11 said:
It’s not a closed shop. Fulham, Bournemouth, Forest, Villa, Brentford etc have all been promoted in the last 5 years and managed to establish themselves in the division. Leicester were challenging the top six not long ago. The people in charge there have somehow made a bigger mess than what the United board have done.

Ipswich had little chance of staying up. The other two made disastrous management changes, which didn’t work for them. Wolves and Everton made management changes and it worked for them. Leicester were better off keeping Cooper than hiring RVN. They should have replaced Cooper with someone with more experience than RVN. Southampton should have sacked Martin earlier, once they realised he was going to be too one dimensional for the league. They replaced him with a manager who was sacked from Roma after two months in charge.
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I didn't say it was. I said it's going to become one. Two seasons in a row we will have the three come up go straight back down.
 
Adz_99 said:
It'll probably change eventually but next season I predict the 3 promoted sides will go straight back down again. It's difficult to see who else could be in trouble. A lot of the small clubs are too well run right now to go down. Us and Spurs are an absolute shambles but both clubs are way too big to get relegated.

Wolves are currently on a 5 game winning streak so unless they fall off a cliff in the summer they'll probably be ok. I suppose West Ham could be in the mix?
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Leicester, Burnley and Southampton were these sides not so long ago. One bad management change or keeping a manager for too long like Leicester did with Brendan will get you right back down.
SilentWitness said:
I didn't say it was. I said it's going to become one. Two seasons in a row we will have the three come up go straight back down.
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Yeah and maybe look at it in the bigger context. Luton were not going to sack Edwards. Sheffield United brought Wilder back and it didn’t work out for them. Kompany tried to play in a way, which was too difficult for Burnley to get results in the league. If you want to stay in the league then you are going to need a manager who is going to adapt and not be one dimensional. You also need a board that’s going to be cut-throat when it comes to sacking the manager and getting the right replacement in. That’s why I can see Burnley and Leeds struggling because their managers in the past have struggled to make that step up to the prem. It’s nothing to do with closed shops etc, I just don’t think Parker or Farke have what it takes to get results in the prem.
 
Bojan11 said:
Leicester, Burnley and Southampton were these sides not so long ago. One bad management change or keeping a manager for too long like Leicester did with Brendan will get you right back down.

Yeah and maybe look at it in the bigger context. Luton were not going to sack Edwards. Sheffield United brought Wilder back and it didn’t work out for them. Kompany tried to play in a way, which was too difficult for Burnley to get results in the league. If you want to stay in the league then you are going to need a manager who is going to adapt and not be one dimensional. You also need a board that’s going to be cut-throat when it comes to sacking the manager and getting the right replacement in. That’s why I can see Burnley and Leeds struggling because their managers in the past have struggled to make that step up to the prem. It’s nothing to do with closed shops etc, I just don’t think Parker or Farke have what it takes to get results in the prem.
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Cool. I disagree. I think the gap between Championship and the PL is getting wider all the time due to financial situations. Even in piss poor seasons for PL clubs, they're still comfortably staying up, including when they've had the same problems you're mentioning the Championship clubs have had.
 
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