MPFG Draft: SF - Pat_Mustard vs EAP

With players at their peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    14
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Physiocrat

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Pat_Mustard

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EAP

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Pat_Mustard Tactics


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Formation: Lobanovsky-inspired 4-1-3-2

Attack as a team and defend as a team. The team was built to press hard and and play direct, full-throttle football. No undue emphasis on possession here, just wave after wave of swift attacks with plenty of players pouring forward, whether we win the ball back high up the pitch or further back. The tireless Ian Rush sets the tone as a forward who will run himself into the ground out-of-possession.

We're facing one of the deadliest counter-attacking players ever in Eusebio, and we established in the last match that Lobanovski was in fact highly pragmatic as to when to press high and when to sit deeper. Nonetheless, we're doubling down on the high press as our go-to strategy here. Edgar's backline, particularly with an old-fashioned destroyer type like Pluskal at DM, doesn't look particularly well-equipped to deal with an intense press. Hierro was a magnificent long-range passer given time and space, but he wasn't particularly nimble with the ball at his feet and was prone to impetuosity - he'll not enjoy a terrier like Rush being on his toes constantly.
  • Uli Stein was one of a long line of slightly insane German goalkeepers and, usefully for a high-line defence, he was quite happy to come off his line. Kicker magazine describes him as "one of Germany’s all-time greatest goalkeepers who enjoyed an outstanding career in the Bundesliga despite inciting several scandals. Uli Stein must be rated as a truly complete goalkeeper, very strong in all aspects of goalkeeping, terrific on the line and at leaving his goal, in one-on-one situations, a very charismatic figure, a dominant person with an aggressive mentality."
  • Stam and Mozer were monsters athletically and both have experience in high line defences - there's few better pairings to defend those big spaces behind them, and deal with 1v1s when we're facing the counter attack.
  • Andy Robertson and Manuel Amoros seem ideal Lobanovsky full-backs - tenacious defenders with excellent attacking output, and the energy to charge up and down their flanks all day.
  • I bid a reluctant farewell to Konkov and replace him with the relentlessly competitive German Uli Stielike. Kicker sums him up neatly as "a highly-talented, hard-running and hard-working defensive midfielder with a penchant for adamant tackling. As a midfielder, Stielike was a destroyer and a creator at the same time, with an emphasis on destroying...One of the reasons why Stielike was so revered in Spain was because he was so consistent. It looked almost like Stielike could not play badly at all.
  • With Stielike as the reference point as the holding player, the other three midfielders have freedom to interchange and surge forward in search of goals. Breitner, the sumptiously gifted dynamo who would pop up all over the pitch, seems ideal for this system. Kevin De Bruyne has established himself as one of the greatest chance-creation machines in modern football, as well as being a ceaseless runner and team-player. Before he became an oddball manager, Felix Magath was a gifted attacking midfielder who led Hamburg throughout the most successful era in their history. Another grafter, whose very pronounced preference for operating down the inside and outside left channels makes him a good fit here.
  • Double Ballon d'Or winner, thoroughbred athlete, excellent technician and a proper team player: Rummenigge is a potential matchwinner in any company. Factor in that he hit his peak after moving off the flanks into a two-man frontline, and that he's reunited here with his most-celebrated partner in crime Paul Breitner, and his threat is ratcheted up even more.
  • It was noted in the Dead Drafters thread regarding Lobanovsky's 70s Dynamo team that they really lacked a ruthless CF to convert their dominance into goals. Ian Rush looks a quality remedy - prolific, extremely fast, and tidy in the build up, he was also an incredible grafter.
EAP Tactics

Formation:

4-3-2-1 (4-3-3 flexible)

Why I'll win:

GOALS! GOALS! .... Two forwards who averageed more than a goal per game during their stated 3 year peak!

Uwe Seeler:

- 1958-59: 34 goals in 32 appearances
- 1959-60: 49 goals in 34 appearances [Balon d'Or 3rd place]]
- 1960-61: 42 goals in 36 appearances
- 1961-62: 32 goals in 30 appearances

Eusebio:
- 1963-64: 46 goals in 28 appearances
- 1964-65: 48 goals in 36 appearances [Balon d'Or Winner]
- 1965-66: 37 goals in 30 appearances
- 1966-67: 42 goals in 33 appearances

Though technically a 4-3-2-1 is a central focused formation, this team is packed with players comfortable in wide areas making it flexible to shift to 4-3-3. This offers a wide variety of attacking outlets that's hard to defend against.
  • A solid defence that can shut most opposition while still offering good attack buildup from the back.
  • A proper two way bridge midfield built on Pluskal's defensive shield. Netto's defensive astuteness and direct passing complimenting with Fracescoli's playmaking and Neesken's more creative and expansive style meshing well with Eusebio's direct running. Lots of one-touch passing between Netto and Neeskens will make it a fast and fluid attack!
  • A attacking trio that can overpower even the most staunchest of the defenses. Lots of creativity and goal scoring packing in.
Defence:
  • Pagliuca is one of the best GKs of his era and one of Italy's best GKs ever. Excellent reactions and shot stopping abilities, good positioning and competent in ball distribution.
  • HP Briegel and A Benarrivo - Industrious and robust fullbacks who can cover a flank all by themselves. Solid defensively and able to provide a good outlet with incisive running and good crossing.
  • Oscar Ruggeri and Fernando Hierro - Classic Sweeper/Stopper combo with Heirro's positioning and playmaking compliments well with Ruggeri's physical skills.
Midfield:
  • Svatoplusk Pluskal - [Full Profile] One of the best DMs of his era, a physically imposing yet tactically astute midfielder whose partnership with Netto is very similar to his real life stint with Masopust. Tireless workhorse.
  • Igor Netto and Johan Neeskens - Two top notch midfield playmakers who offer abundance of creativity from the deep. High defensive workrate when off the ball have the vision and creativity to build plays from the deep, they are a perfect bridge between defence and attack. +++ is their ability to cover wide areas making them hard to track when on the ball. Offers a lot of flexibility in the way out team moves the ball forward.
Attack:
  • Enzo Francescoli and Eusebio - A perfect blend of attacking playmaking, physicality and direct running. Both are comfortable drifting out wide, dropping deep or link up centrally giving this team lots of flexibility making them hard to defend against. The team could seamlessly morph to a 4-3-3 making it easy to exploit gaps and open spaces for themselves or others to score.
  • Uwe Seeler - Complete all action CF with pace and physicality to bully defenders and movement to drag them all over opening opportunities for others. Perfect fit to lead the line.
 
I think my team is the perfect counter for Pats. His team is playing a compact game which would not be that efficient in a packed midfield with not much space for their passing game to be that impactful. I'm set up to soak up the pressure and hit on the counter (though we are not playing a defensive game).

Plus Seeler and Eusebio vs that backline is to my advantage too.
 
I think my team is the perfect counter for Pats. His team is playing a compact game which would not be that efficient in a packed midfield with not much space for their passing game to be that impactful. I'm set up to soak up the pressure and hit on the counter (though we are not playing a defensive game).

Plus Seeler and Eusebio vs that backline is to my advantage too.

Not sure what you mean exactly by 'compact game'. If you mean little space between our lines as we're going with a high press and high line then yay. If you mean lack of width, then nay.

On the left we have Robertson (55 assists and counting for Liverpool as he enters his sixth season there) and Magath, who specialised in attacking the left-sided channels and defeated Platini and Scirea's Juventus in a CL final from there. As for the right channels, Amoros motoring forward in support of this guy looks okay...



And that's before we get into Breitner (Christ knows what his heatmap would look like) and the strikers.

Eusebio against a high line is your biggest threat here and it's a compelling one, but there's not many CB duos I'd rather have than Stam and Mozer defending those large spaces in behind.
 
Hierro and Ruggeri actually played a season together at Real Madrid. Their manager John Toshack clearly rated them individually:

John Toshack said:
(Hierro) always had a lack of pace, but was very skilful and intelligent, and read the game well

John Toshack said:
Strong, experienced, maybe he lacked a bit of pace, but Ruggeri made up for it in his ability to read the game.

Interestingly though, he refused to play them together as CBs in a back four despite getting flak from the press about going with a back three/five:

John Toshack said:
Having them in a back four meant we would have had problems. Instead, it seemed obvious to me to work with the sweeper system I'd fine-tuned in San Sebastian after I'd started using it at Swansea...In my opinion, it's a system that protected Ruggeri a little bit. I used his experience to its full value and exposed very little of his weakness

The lightning quick Rush and thoroughbred athlete Rummenigge are a tough proposition for a CB pairing with a collective lack of pace.
 
Interestingly though, he refused to play them together as CBs in a back four despite getting flak from the press about going with a back three/five:
That's not really relevant as the tactics are different. In a system like mine where the D-Line is protected well with 3 defensively sound midfielders ahead, there is no such weakness.

On the flip side, with your high line, it's more likely that we'll beat you on the break.

I do rate Mozer but he's against not just one but two of the Top 10 GOAT attackers. With Francescoli occupying Stielike, and I'm not rightly sure how much defensive support Magath will offer.

I doubt you'll able to beat my counter all game with the pace in my midfield. I expect Eusebio to have a great game here. His running doesn't have much opposition.
 
That's not really relevant as the tactics are different. In a system like mine where the D-Line is protected well with 3 defensively sound midfielders ahead, there is no such weakness.

That doesn't really explain away why Toshack felt it essential to play a sweeper behind them. Your three defensively sound midfielders will mostly be protecting the space in front of them, not bailing them out every time Rush and Rummenigge run off their shoulders.

On Magath, here he is vs Juventus in a European Cup Final:

https://sendvid.com/dl5grplj

He was no Olympian athletically, that's for sure, but he was hard-working, tenacious and tactically switched on defensively, and played his part as a key player in Hamburg's hard-pressing golden era under Zebec and Happel.

I wouldn't dispute the quality of your attack at all (Seeler and Eusebio both as "Top 10 GOAT attackers" might be pushing it, though I don't put much stock in strict lists really), but I don't think you look fluent enough in your deeper build-up play to get the best out of them, particularly under the pressure of a relentless press.
 
That doesn't really explain away why Toshack felt it essential to play a sweeper behind them. Your three defensively sound midfielders will mostly be protecting the space in front of them, not bailing them out every time Rush and Rummenigge run off their shoulders.

On Magath, here he is vs Juventus in a European Cup Final:

https://sendvid.com/dl5grplj

He was no Olympian athletically, that's for sure, but he was hard-working, tenacious and tactically switched on defensively, and played his part as a key player in Hamburg's hard-pressing golden era under Zebec and Happel.

I wouldn't dispute the quality of your attack at all (Seeler and Eusebio both as "Top 10 GOAT attackers" might be pushing it, though I don't put much stock in strict lists really), but I don't think you look fluent enough in your deeper build-up play to get the best out of them, particularly under the pressure of a relentless press.

You're making too much of it. Digging up sleaze worthy of Daily Mail :D

They played for one season together in 1989-90.
- Hierro played 37 games and scored 7 goals.
- Ruggeri played 31 games and scored 2 goals.
- Real won the league with them as the main CB pairing. - They only let in 38 goals which is lowest of the top 3 finishers.
- Ruggeri also won the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year that season.

As to Toshack not wanting to play Hierro in a back 4 is probably due to the fact that Sanchis was the mainstay defender at that time (and quite an influential figure) and Sanchis-Hierro was too similar and not complimentary meaning Ruggeri had to be there to balance it out.
It's bizarre to claim Hierro-Ruggeri is somehow dysfunctional!

He was no Olympian athletically, that's for sure, but he was hard-working, tenacious and tactically switched on defensively, and played his part as a key player in Hamburg's hard-pressing golden era under Zebec and Happel.

Did watch that match you quoted, but hardworking player is completely different from being able to stop Eusebio-Nesskens axis, esp in a non purely defensive box-to-box role. No offence to Magath, but both Neeskens and Eusebio are far superior players! The difference in quality is just too wide to be bridged by "hardworking".
 
Simply put, Eusebio-Francescoli is way too hot for Stielike to handle.
And Neeskens and Netto are better midfielders than DeBruyne and Magath respectively.
Pluskal vs Breitner would be a contest worth watching as they are a good match for each other. I doubt Breitner would be as influential facing Pluskal directly 1vs1.

The player quality difference is quite telling here.
 
:lol:

You're making too much of it. Digging up sleaze worthy of Daily Mail :D

They played for one season together in 1989-90.
- Hierro played 37 games and scored 7 goals.
- Ruggeri played 31 games and scored 2 goals.
- Real won the league with them as the main CB pairing. - They only let in 38 goals which is lowest of the top 3 finishers.
- Ruggeri also won the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year that season.

As to Toshack not wanting to play Hierro in a back 4 is probably due to the fact that Sanchis was the mainstay defender at that time (and quite an influential figure) and Sanchis-Hierro was too similar and not complimentary meaning Ruggeri had to be there to balance it out.
It's bizarre to claim Hierro-Ruggeri is somehow dysfunctional!



Did watch that match you quoted, but hardworking player is completely different from being able to stop Eusebio-Nesskens axis, esp in a non purely defensive box-to-box role. No offence to Magath, but both Neeskens and Eusebio are far superior players! The difference in quality is just too wide to be bridged by "hardworking".

https://twitter.com/johntoshack?lang=en-GB

You need to take it up with Big Tosh mate! He's the one that managed them and he's the one that wrote about them not being suitable partners in a back four. He doesn't seem to have been on Twitter since 2018 though so I'm not sure how you can reach him to set him straight :(
 
They did have a great season under Toshack's system though, so it looks like he was vindicated. He disliked Sanchis as it happened, blaming him for their European Cup exit to Milan and generally not seeing eye to eye with him.
 
@Pat_Mustard I'm not sure of Stielike as a pivot. Whenever I have seen him play he has always got forward quite a - if he played in midfield or as sweeper. I think he would have the positional discipline but don't think it would maximise his skillset. In a double pivot he would be fine but as a lone man I'm not so sure.
 
Guess I differ from the draft majority in that I really like Hierro at CB. Can say less about Ruggeri, never came across the lack of pace argument for example. But I don't have many worries about them in a defensively compact christmas tree formation.
@Pat_Mustard I'm not sure of Stielike as a pivot. Whenever I have seen him play he has always got forward quite a - if he played in midfield or as sweeper. I think he would have the positional discipline but don't think it would maximise his skillset. In a double pivot he would be fine but as a lone man I'm not so sure.
Matches my impression, a playmaker from deep who liked to progress the ball himself. But I haven't watched an awful lot of him, so maybe missing something.
And Neeskens and Netto are better midfielders than DeBruyne and Magath respectively.
I think De Bruyne has a case for being the best midfielder on the pitch (fully knowing how good some of the others were).

Not sure who to vote for as of now.
 
@Pat_Mustard I'm not sure of Stielike as a pivot. Whenever I have seen him play he has always got forward quite a - if he played in midfield or as sweeper. I think he would have the positional discipline but don't think it would maximise his skillset. In a double pivot he would be fine but as a lone man I'm not so sure.

Yep, that was my initial thought when he picked him. Someone who can cover for him at times would be ideal. Then again, he also played in defence, so I assume he would have positional discipline to pull it off.

Still, and at first sight, questionable reinforcement for a player that I don't know much about, but played to a great level in this very system.

Gave it to Pat because of CF partnership (looking at Edgars CB partnership) and pressure that will bring on Pluskal, but also not fully convinced with Stielike.
 
Guess I differ from the draft majority in that I really like Hierro at CB.

Hierro was a very good CB, he just needs pace around him or to play in a deep defence. Given the deepish back line for Edgar though I think it should be fine. I'm not sure what tactics Toshack played at Real but I doubt it was with a compact deep line.

That said Pat's argument is interesting given Ruggeri should have been at his peak around then and Hierro would have been as quick as he got in 1990.

Btw where do people think Hierro's best position is? Pivot, sweeper or CB? I suspect in the modern game he would be a pivot as his lack of pace would be less of a problem.
 
Interesting game this. Pat's remake is lovely while Edgar's team is tactically very clean and Eusebio looks right at home.

Hierro was a very good CB, he just needs pace around him or to play in a deep defence. Given the deepish back line for Edgar though I think it should be fine. I'm not sure what tactics Toshack played at Real but I doubt it was with a compact deep line.

That said Pat's argument is interesting given Ruggeri should have been at his peak around then and Hierro would have been as quick as he got in 1990.

Btw where do people think Hierro's best position is? Pivot, sweeper or CB? I suspect in the modern game he would be a pivot as his lack of pace would be less of a problem.
Good question. He scored a lot of goals from the CM area, I really like him there in a vertical 4-4-2 for example. Equally though if Pique can play CB for Pep, then I'm sure Hierro could. But I'd also like him in the Rodri role at City, using his physicality to win first balls and then use it very purposefully going forwards. He wouldn't get into the box as much as his CM days, but he'd still pose a big threat shooting from around the edge of the box and from attacking set-pieces.
 
Both teams are excellent but I have decided to reward Edgar for persisting with the Xmas tree all these years and finally getting is close to really great.

I still find his reinforcements strategy weird. Why upgrade Elkjaer instead of Pluskal? Sure Seeler gets in ahead of Elkjaer but you make that move when there is no other upgrade needed in the team.

Not that Pluskal is a nut but surely a DM with better standing and fanbase makes for a more draft wise upgrade IMO.

Hierro-Ruggeri is just about good for me, nothing to bang home about but not anything to be concerned about as well.
 
Agreed with Scrappy with a point that Edgar really messed up his RRs

Elkjaer
Enzo Eusebio
Nedved Cocu ?
Briegel ? Picchi ?
?

GK - better keeper, preferably someone more modern but not necessarily a sweeper keeper - Courtois
DC - stopper, Ruggeri would be fine but there were cheaper options equally as good if not better(though worse for draft votes) - Terry
DR - balanced fullback would be just fine with Eusebio/Elkjaer up top - think Neville was going for peanuts but then again plenty of other options
RCM - id go big here, probably Tigana

Set them up deep and play on the counter, IMO final ready team and a team that would beat this Mustard side.​
 
Not that Pluskal is a nut but surely a DM with better standing and fanbase makes for a more draft wise upgrade IMO.

It was a gamble based on the fact that, Di Stefano aside, none of my potential opponents had a GOAT #10. Plus Pluskal's ability to drop into defense is something I rated more when facing top CFs. In this formation even against Breitner, I think he's sufficient. Not eye catching, but tactically fit.

Agreed with Scrappy with a point that Edgar really messed up his RRs

Elkjaer
Enzo Eusebio
Nedved Cocu ?
Briegel ? Picchi ?
?

GK - better keeper, preferably someone more modern but not necessarily a sweeper keeper - Courtois
DC - stopper, Ruggeri would be fine but there were cheaper options equally as good if not better(though worse for draft votes) - Terry
DR - balanced fullback would be just fine with Eusebio/Elkjaer up top - think Neville was going for peanuts but then again plenty of other options
RCM - id go big here, probably Tigana

Set them up deep and play on the counter, IMO final ready team and a team that would beat this Mustard side.​

Pagliuca is probably the best Keeper still playing in this draft.

Ruggeri wasn't my first choice. I was going for Vierchowod, but that didn't leave me enough funds for my next plan....which was to trade Hierro for Figueroa. :(

As to Tigana, I think Neeskens offers as much plus more goals.
 
@Edgar Allan Pillow

What would your all-time unrestricted Christmas Tree side be?
I keep changing my mind constantly :lol:

Right now, I'd go for

....................... L Ronaldo ......................
................Puskas ...........Messi..................
......Davids.........Redondo .....Schweini.......
Cabrini........Stam.........Nesta.............Cafu
.............................Buffon ............................
 
Want to vote for EAP, then looking at Pat's side, and nah, can't vote against that. Chickening out, sorry!
 
I keep changing my mind constantly :lol:

Right now, I'd go for

....................... L Ronaldo ......................
................Puskas ...........Messi..................
......Davids.........Redondo .....Schweini.......
Cabrini........Stam.........Nesta.............Cafu
.............................Buffon ............................

Goals goals goals in the front 3. Schweini is an interesting choice, I thought you might go for Tigana.
 
@Physiocrat @Jim Beam I didn't quite know what to make of Konkov positionally - for all that he was predominantly the one staying back and giving shape to Lobanovski's midfield, he still popped up all over the show. Here's USSR vs Italy from 1975, one of those matches when Lobanovski just YOLOed it and played 11 Dynamo players.



You see him striding down the right wing to put in crosses at 0:55 and 1:24, dribbling into the 6 yard box at 4:55, hammering a shot off the woodwork from inside the penalty area at 9:16.

I didn't particularly want to upgrade him at all but I didn't have many ideas for that reinforcement round and I thought Stielike was a strong, stylistically similar replacement. Read a not very revealing interview with Stielike hat was published the other day and he seemed happy in both a more expansive B2B role and a more restrained role.

I started playing in the center of the field but with the departure of Pirri, little by little I found myself more and more in the libero position. I loved the center of the field because of the touches on the ball and the participation that you could have in a game. I also liked the libero position because of its huge responsibility.

I'll have to mull things over now but I'm inclined to stick with Stielike.