Mike Tyson - The Lost Soul

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I have recently downloaded and am in the progress of watching Mike Tysons career.

I am up to his first fight with Holyfield, and theres a couple of things which seem blatantly obvious to me from watching this in quick succession; his downfall wasnt due to Cus dying, which is the overwhelming consensus, not at all, after cus died he won his next 17 fights on his way to the Heavyweight title and looked as raw, rugged and powerful as he ever did, he was progressing in a world class manner.

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It wasnt until he lost his training partner, Kevin Rooney, in late 1988 did things take a nasty downwards spiral. With a record of 36-0, They split ways and Tyson lost the man who was responsible for his rise, along with Cus they had the trust in each other, a three way partnership, Rooney was the guy who kept him in check and the trainer who knew more than Tyson than tyson did himself, Tyson did all he could for him, like a dog to its owner, the final link between himself and the late Cus.

Until Tyson's bout with Michael Spinks in 1988 he was rampant. Instantaneously with Rooney dismissal (which was through the persuasion of Don King), Tyson's unique boxing skills which separated him from all the other heavyweights, (speed, focus, fitness and head movement....) declined noticeably. His first fight without Rooney was against Frank Bruno, and he just didnt seem the same, granted Tyson won the fight, but it wasnt as easy as it should have been.

The Tyson circus had started and he had forgotten where he was from, and who put him there.

Fight after fight, it was more noticeable and the lack of spark and shear thirst to rip the opponents head off was diminishing. He won his next fight against a already beaten carl williams but still looked out of shape. The next big challenge against Buster Douglas in tokyo and Tyson would no longer be the invisible destroyer. He got KO'd in the 10th and looked a shadow of his former self, it was hardly a surprise.

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It was interesting to watch as an outsider, seeing Kevin rooney leave him was like seeing him walk away from a family member, and I was watching everything around him change and crumble. The poison of don king and his money grabbing wife, all the leaches in the ring, the media circus came into full effect and Tyson was too unstable, too insecure and not clever enough to see his mistake had cost him.

He came back with an intention to redeem himself winning his next 4 fights, still looking dangerous but not the Tyson we knew and loved, unfortunately his wild extra curricular activities were soon to damage his life for good, Tyson was arrested in July 1991 for the rape of 18-year-old Desiree Washington. There was no turning back.

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On his return to the ring as a new muslim convert he was like a brain washed zombie, giving all the credit for his win to Allah and speaking like a robot on his victory. What about all your other fights Mike? He was simply, a changed man. Different in the ring and in the mind. From then onwards he showed glimpses of his former self but never found the passion and desire he had as a virginal youth, for me this is all very sad as it makes you think what could have been, the saying "troubled genius" springs to mind.

I think its only fair to judge Mike Tyson, during and after the Kevin Rooney reign, as he was 2 different people. During, he was the most devastating, fearsome and unrelenting warrior the world has seen at heavyweight. After - It was like asking a Puppet to dance without its master.

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Kevin Rooney on Mike Tyson - Interesting interview with Kevin Rooney on Tyson and what could have been.
 
You have completely ignored the fact that he was "rampant" in a shitty era.
 
That the only all time great on his record is a near 40 year old Larry Holmes who had been retired for 2 years. When he fought two live ATGs (Lewis, Holyfield X2) he got his shit pushed in. I would also have favoured Bowe over him.

I am stating that I think he is overrated. You can find more relevant discussion in this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/f12/mike-tyson-315608/#post9006532
 
What your failing to see is that I am clearly referencing his prime when describing him as the greatest. A Tyson in his prime would have done a lot more against Lewis who was a very good boxer, but nothing special - and in his prime thats exactaly what Tyson was, Special. Same goes for Holyfield, he fought them both when he was out of sorts and no where near his prime, unfair to make a judgement on that imo.
 
What your failing to see is that I am clearly referencing his prime when describing him as the greatest. A Tyson in his prime would have done a lot more against Lewis who was a very good boxer, but nothing special - and in his prime thats exactaly what Tyson was, Special. Same goes for Holyfield, he fought them both when he was out of sorts and no where near his prime, unfair to make a judgement on that imo.

This is pointless. Later.
 
Lewis and Holyfield were both much, much more than 'nothing special'. I rate Tyson in his prime very highly, more so than Lance does I'm sure, but I think Holyfield always had his number. It was a mental thing more than anything, going back to their amateur days. Tyson was always intimidated by him. I think Tyson in his prime would have knocked out Lewis though.
 
Tyson was an awesome boxer in his first 5 years, between 85-90. He was fast, very very fast, and he had so much power an accuracy. He would have murdered Lewis in his prime. In his prime Tyson was the best heavy weight ever by far IMO. The problem is he was past it by the time he was 25 and he therefore can't be considered as one of the greats.
 
Tyson was an awesome boxer in his first 5 years, between 85-90. He was fast, very very fast, and he had so much power an accuracy. He would have murdered Lewis in his prime. In his prime Tyson was the best heavy weight ever by far IMO.

Have to agree, in his prime, he was incredible.
 
Tyson was an awesome boxer in his first 5 years, between 85-90. He was fast, very very fast, and he had so much power an accuracy. He would have murdered Lewis in his prime. In his prime Tyson was the best heavy weight ever by far IMO. The problem is he was past it by the time he was 25 and he therefore can't be considered as one of the greats.

Tyson is on record stating that he could never have beaten Lewis. At any stage in his career.
 
Lewis and Holyfield were both much, much more than 'nothing special'. I rate Tyson in his prime very highly, more so than Lance does I'm sure, but I think Holyfield always had his number. It was a mental thing more than anything, going back to their amateur days. Tyson was always intimidated by him. I think Tyson in his prime would have knocked out Lewis though.

Holyfield was a stedhead...and didn't get beaten twice by Bowe? Tyson would've beaten him in the 80s, he was simply too fast, too strong for any fighter. As for Lewis, he fought some big names that were well past their sell by dates and also beat a lot of average fighters. I also recall him getting hammered by Bruno for six rounds only to be saved by a lucky punch, this a Bruno who was 7 years past his prime. As for Holyfield, those Bowe fights were epic.
 
Holyfield was a stedhead...and didn't get beaten twice by Bowe? Tyson would've beaten him in the 80s, he was simply too fast, too strong for any fighter. As for Lewis, he fought some big names that were well past their sell by dates and also beat a lot of average fighters. I also recall him getting hammered by Bruno for six rounds only to be saved by a lucky punch, this a Bruno who was 7 years past his prime. As for Holyfield, those Bowe fights were epic.
:lol:

Name Tyson's best wins.
 
:lol:

Name Tyson's best wins.

Berbick. No one would've lived with him on that night...save Ali. But I'm right, if Tyson didn't fight anyone decent...then Lewis didn't either. Unless you class that Tyson as anything other than a punchbag and a Holyfield who didn't have anything left as the man who was in his early 90s prime. Bruno should've beaten Lewis. Man, was I shocked that night.
 
In his prime, he would've killed him. I was a huge Lewis fan, by the way. Watched his career from the amateurs.

So did I. No one that Tyson fought in his prime is on the same planet as Lewis. He fought Douglas in his prime and got KO'd. That is when the old Tyson favourite rears it's ugly head, as it does throughout his career. "Mitigating circumstances." Or, as I would put it, excuses.
 
So did I. No one that Tyson fought in his prime is on the same planet as Lewis. He fought Douglas in his prime and got KO'd. That is when the old Tyson favourite rears it's ugly head, as it does throughout his career. "Mitigating circumstances." Or, as I would put it, excuses.

Yes, he was clearly on the slippery slopes when he fought Douglas. We all know his history...we all know what happened before the fight. The man was surrounded by leeches. Then again, Lewis got KO'd by McCall....and couldn't knock him out in the return when his opponent had a virtual mental breakdown...and consequently wasn't even willing to fight. I wanted Lewis to be great, by the way. I wish he hunted Holyfield down for example and made a massive statement instead of being too scared of getting beat. I actually thought, Lewis was much better in the earlier part of his career...I thought he put on too much weight in his prime years.
 
Berbick. No one would've lived with him on that night...save Ali. But I'm right, if Tyson didn't fight anyone decent...then Lewis didn't either. Unless you class that Tyson as anything other than a punchbag and a Holyfield who didn't have anything left as the man who was in his early 90s prime. Bruno should've beaten Lewis. Man, was I shocked that night.

Berbick?? The same Berbick that lost to the mighty Renaldo Snipes prior to fighting Tyson? You know you are scraping the barrel when you have to bring Berbick up as one of his biggest wins.

As for Lewis, Holyfield didn't have anything left? Get a grip.
 
Yes, he was clearly on the slippery slopes when he fought Douglas. We all know his history...we all know what happened before the fight. The man was surrounded by leeches. Then again, Lewis got KO'd by McCall....and couldn't knock him out in the return when his opponent had a virtual mental breakdown...and consequently wasn't even willing to fight. I wanted Lewis to be great, by the way. I wish he hunted Holyfield down for example and made a massive statement instead of being too scared of getting beat. I actually thought, Lewis was much better in the earlier part of his career...I thought he put on too much weight in his prime years.

For someone who claims to have followed Lewis since the ams, you don't know very much about him. If you had, you would know that Bowe fought Holyfield, while Lewis fought Ruddock in a mini tournament, with the winners of each fight to meet for the WBC belt. Holyfield lost, Lewis won. Bowe then opted to dump the belt in the trash rather than face Lewis.

Bad Spoony.
 
Berbick?? The same Berbick that lost to the mighty Renaldo Snipes prior to fighting Tyson? You know you are scraping the barrel when you have to bring Berbick up as one of his biggest wins.

As for Lewis, Holyfield didn't have anything left? Get a grip.

Give over, he wasn't half the fighter he used to be. And didn't Snipes knockdown the great Larry Holmes in his prime? so, he beat Berbick a few years before he became world champ, Lewis got KO'd by McCall. Spinks was another great victory - Spinks beat Larry Holmes twice I seem to recall.
 
For someone who claims to have followed Lewis since the ams, you don't know very much about him. If you had, you would know that Bowe fought Holyfield, while Lewis fought Ruddock in a mini tournament, with the winners of each fight to meet for the WBC belt. Holyfield lost, Lewis won. Bowe then opted to dump the belt in the trash rather than face Lewis.

Bad Spoony.

And that nowt to do with my post, Lance. Strange response. Bowe Vs Lewis would've been brilliant, to be fair...shame it didn't happen. And I'm aware that it was Bowe who was avoiding him.
 
Give over, he wasn't half the fighter he used to be. And didn't Snipes knockdown the great Larry Holmes in his prime? so, he beat Berbick a few years before he became world champ, Lewis got KO'd by McCall. Spinks was another great victory - Spinks beat Larry Holmes twice I seem to recall.

Yep, Spinks beat a shell of Holmes. Who immediately retired. Spinks also fought a whole five times at HW. :lol:

Next.
 
And that nowt to do with my post, Lance. Strange response. Bowe Vs Lewis would've been brilliant, to be fair...shame it didn't happen. And I'm aware that it was Bowe who was avoiding him.

You said you wanted Lewis to hunt down Holyfield, rather then be too scared to lose. Short of Lewis jumping into the ring with Holyfield and double teaming Bowe with chairs, what exactly did you want him to do?

EDIT and we have to sort out this double posting thing. It's really gay. :lol:
 
You said you wanted Lewis to hunt down Holyfield, rather then be too scared to lose. Short of Lewis jumping into the ring with Holyfield and double teaming Bowe with chairs, what exactly did you want him to do?

EDIT and we have to sort out this double posting thing. It's really gay. :lol:

Hunted down him in the ring...as in the fight or taken the fight to Holyfied, I'm talking about their two bouts. Not hunted him down in the early 90s in the way probably came across to you.

how about you stick on Knockout Kings...and match Tyson and Lewis up in their primes?
 
Hunted down him in the ring...as in the fight or taken the fight to Holyfied, I'm talking about their two bouts. Not hunted him down in the early 90s in the way probably came across to you.

Ah, right, apologies, gotcha. I agree, I wish he had gone in and blitzed him, too, but he was very cautious after the McCall fiasco.

how about you stick on Knockout Kings...and match Tyson and Lewis up in their primes?

:nervous:
 
So did I. No one that Tyson fought in his prime is on the same planet as Lewis. He fought Douglas in his prime and got KO'd. That is when the old Tyson favourite rears it's ugly head, as it does throughout his career. "Mitigating circumstances." Or, as I would put it, excuses.

He was not in his prime at all, age wise he was, but mentally, he was not. As I mentioned in the initial post, the bubble burst when he parted with rooney and his focused turned to partying and sexual activities. He was completely out of shape when Douglas KO'd him and if you had seen the fight and all the prior fights you can clearly see the difference in his preparation which for that night in Tokyo was non existent.

We could argue all day about who is better but it's opinion, however the interesting and revealing fact is that he never lost under Rooney and never looked like it either, then coienciding with their splitting of partnership the wheels came off, instantly and his career slowly dwindled away. Together they proved unbeatable and if they kept up those high standards who knows how far they could have gone. My guess is a lot further.

You can only beat whats infront of you and he came through every challenge at his physical and mental peak.

Move on