Midfield

[Livvie]

This isn't anything to do with Veron's ability - but a midfield including four from Becks, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and Keane, is as strong as we can get imo. I honestly think that our best performances have come from this combination.

Veron is a class player, and I hope he stays - but is he a squad player? If not, what's the answer?

Whilst Seba has turned in some excellent individual performances, is the midfield the same solid unit with him in it?

 

[Blade]

keane and veron is the best midfield pairing.. IMO

 

[Livvie]

As a matter of interest then, which games would you say have been our best this season.

 

[Blade]

we've had many great games this season..its tough to single out any.

 

[MW16]

Veron is a world class player and imo him an Keane are our best pairing, and those who argue that we play better without him, well ask yourself this, if it was'nt for the fact Verons so good and keeping them out of the side, would the likes of Butt an Scholes have been playing so well lately

 

[Livvie]

I agree that Veron is world-class.

But I think it would be better for the club if he takes his turn on the bench.

If Butt and Scholes play better because of the competition, it would also work in reverse.

But the topic isn't about Veron as such, but about the quality of a midfield that comprises four of the five mentioned.

Football isn't always about how world class a player is. It's a team game.

 

[Gazza]

Our midfield should be based around who is playing best at the time. We can not allow players to be thrown in to the team becuase of their price tag/reputation. For instance, it would be unfair to put Butt out after his performances, so Scholes and Veron should be working hard to displace him.

 

[Penny]

thnk Livvie has an absolute valid point there. .. the only thing we could hope now is Veron could stay, start to gel in more and get tougher on and off the ball ... If Pires could do it the 2nd season with Arse ... I don see why Veron can't ...

 

[uranushk1]

Although I agree that Veron's performance is not as good as many people expected (including me), he is showing sign of improvement recently. I'm glad to see he starts to play with his heart. I believe that performance will come after committment. When he real-heartedly playing for us he will start to show his real class.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>I agree that Veron is world-class.

But I think it would be better for the club if he takes his turn on the bench.

If Butt and Scholes play better because of the competition, it would also work in reverse.

But the topic isn't about Veron as such, but about the quality of a midfield that comprises four of the five mentioned.

Football isn't always about how world class a player is. It's a team game.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are trying to ignore the fact that Veron is in the team and you can't do that with the argument that you are making. Yes, the midfield is a team game, and yes Butt and Scholes played well last night, so are you going to drop both Keane and Veron for a while just to work up their desire to shine?? I mean, I would if I thought Butt and Scholes were playing better than Veron and Keane, but the latter two comprise our best central midfield pairing (as Fergie has shown by his team selection time and again)--although there is no doubting the quality of a Butt, Scholes combo (or any combo of those 4 really). Veron and Keane have been playing increasingly well together, and yet you are saying Veron alone should be dropped for a while. Honestly, the rest of the season will be tough, with a tough CL's QF draw and a long PL campaign, and although I think the Giggs-Keane-Veron-Beckham combo is the best, and should be started when all 4 are healthy, the good form of Butt and Scholes is just a huge bonus in addition.

 

[WeasteDevil]

If all our 6 main midfield players are fit, the midfield 4 or 5 should be choosen depending upon their form at the time and the tactical situation - ie. What are the qualities of the opposing team, what is their formation, do they tire quickly, sdo they play fast, do they play slow, do they play the long ball or short touch passing, do we want to place emphasis on attacking or defending, what is the current score, etc.

 

[WeasteDevil]

That's what Veron gives us - options that we have not had in the past.

And what about when we get injuries and suspensions - he will become invaluable!

 

[lchk]

I believe that next season Veron will show his true world class colours consistently. Excellent players will always adapt to their surroundings and shine, they just need a bit of time.

Our midfield selection would be tough if everyone plays well.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

You are trying to ignore the fact that Veron is in the team </strong><hr></blockquote>


Am I?? I don't think so. I'm more aware of the fact that most of the time, Butt or Scholes aren't going to be in the team. The point I'm trying to make is that arguably some of our best performances have come when the midfield has comprised of 4 from Giggs, Becks, Scholes, Keane or Butt - and should Seba take his turn on the bench if necessary.

Against West Ham, and even more so last night, the midfield were excellent.

I'm not knocking Veron's ability - but I do think he is still getting used to the PL, and based on some of their performances this season, I think the midfield quartet from those 5 mentioned, is as good as we are capable of at the minute.

And Seba should occasionally be on the sub's bench like everyone else.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


Am I?? I don't think so. I'm more aware of the fact that most of the time, Butt or Scholes aren't going to be in the team. The point I'm trying to make is that arguably some of our best performances have come when the midfield has comprised of 4 from Giggs, Becks, Scholes, Keane or Butt - and should Seba take his turn on the bench if necessary.

Against West Ham, and even more so last night, the midfield were excellent.

I'm not knocking Veron's ability - but I do think he is still getting used to the PL, and based on some of their performances this season, I think the midfield quartet from those 5 mentioned, is as good as we are capable of at the minute.

And Seba should occasionally be on the sub's bench like everyone else.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, if Veron deserves his time on the sub's bench, then I don't doubt Fergie will put him there. If he decides to put Beckham, Scholes, etc...there throughout the year, I imagine he would be willing to put Veron there as well. As for your argument about the better midfield performances, I think you would find most of those matches are, for better or for worse, against weaker opposition. Furthermore, there have been plenty of matches where Veron has played when United have played well too. Now, I am not saying Veron should always play, even if he is playing badly and there are those playing better. However, I am not going to agree to the comment of sitting a player just to give him time of the subs bench (just for the sake of it).

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

However, I am not going to agree to the comment of sitting a player just to give him time of the subs bench (just for the sake of it).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Struth Mathiaslg - neither am I!! I'm saying that if Butt is turning in the kind of performance that he did last night, would it benefit the team to drop him (just for the sake of it)???

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Struth Mathiaslg - neither am I!! I'm saying that if Butt is turning in the kind of performance that he did last night, would it benefit the team to drop him (just for the sake of it)???</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the Veron-Keane partnership will be better suited, absolutely.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

If the Veron-Keane partnership will be better suited, absolutely.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd agree with that.

But the Keane/Butt partnership has imo been just as productive.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I'd agree with that.

But the Keane/Butt partnership has imo been just as productive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It all depends on who United have on the wings.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

It all depends on who United have on the wings.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's my whole point - there are times when Butt - Scholes - would suit the team better, so Veron should then accept a sub's role, which hasn't always been the case.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

That's my whole point - there are times when Butt - Scholes - would suit the team better, so Veron should then accept a sub's role, which hasn't always been the case.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My point was, if you are playing a Butt-Keane CM pairing, the wings better work effectively, otherwise there will be little offensive creativity. With Veron, you get creativity out of the middle that you don't even with Scholes. However, the midfield 4 should be picked to best suit the situation, and I don't doubt Fergie has done his best to do such a task. Do you think he would pick a team that he didn't think would win?

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

My point was, if you are playing a Butt-Keane CM pairing, the wings better work effectively, otherwise there will be little offensive creativity. With Veron, you get creativity out of the middle that you don't even with Scholes. However, the midfield 4 should be picked to best suit the situation, and I don't doubt Fergie has done his best to do such a task. Do you think he would pick a team that he didn't think would win?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Personally I think we get better creativity in the middle with Scholes than Veron if you look past Veron's reputation and see his performances. Scholes gets assists, makes more defense splitting passes, scores more goals, and gets penalties! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> Where was Veron's creativity against Bayern (which is exactly the sort of game we bought him for)?

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Personally I think we get better creativity in the middle with Scholes than Veron if you look past Veron's reputation and see his performances. Scholes gets assists, makes more defense splitting passes, scores more goals, and gets penalties! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> Where was Veron's creativity against Bayern (which is exactly the sort of game we bought him for)?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not even God could have been creative against Bayern when they play in that fashion. Scholes is better at getting himself into scoring positions, but Veron is better at setting other players up, and you just have to utilize their strengths.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Not even God could have been creative against Bayern when they play in that fashion. Scholes is better at getting himself into scoring positions, but Veron is better at setting other players up, and you just have to utilize their strengths.</strong><hr></blockquote>
By setting other players up, do you mean getting assists? Because Veron must have one of the lowest number of assists in the premiership. He's good at keeping the ball and linking moves together, a bit like Deschamps once was, and he can do some long passes, but they tend to be not quite hit right or not that useful. I know he is supposed to be creative, but I've yet to see him play like that.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
By setting other players up, do you mean getting assists? Because Veron must have one of the lowest number of assists in the premiership. He's good at keeping the ball and linking moves together, a bit like Deschamps once was, and he can do some long passes, but they tend to be not quite hit right or not that useful. I know he is supposed to be creative, but I've yet to see him play like that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Veron has played fairly deep, and I think he has been quite effective at getting people into clear cut assist positions which then end up leading to goals.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Do you think he would pick a team that he didn't think would win?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you think his hands aren't sometimes tied by having to play someone who cost 28 million?

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Do you think his hands aren't sometimes tied by having to play someone who cost 28 million?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats what bugs me, he should be rotated like anyone else, and if someone else hits better form than him, then its up to him to wait for a chance again. Scholes is looking great at the moment - and is worth more than £28m so there's no reason why he should warm the bench for a lesser player.

 

[Raoul]

Sorry to disagree, but Scholes couldn't net more than £20-22m under the best of circumstances. Not to say he's better or not as good as Seba though.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Scholes is looking great at the moment - and is worth more than £28m so there's no reason why he should warm the bench for a lesser player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't say Veron is a lesser player than Scholes - I think his talent is unquestionable, but just don't think that at the present time, our style suits him. Or his us.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>Sorry to disagree, but Scholes couldn't net more than £20-22m under the best of circumstances. Not to say he's better or not as good as Seba though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Scholes has consistently been associated with a 30m+ transfer value which is not surprising considering that he is a goal scoring attacking midfielder of exceptional technique. Do you want me to go hunting links?

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Scholes has consistently been associated with a 30m+ transfer value which is not surprising considering that he is a goal scoring attacking midfielder of exceptional technique. Do you want me to go hunting links?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We know he has consistently been linked with a 30 million pound transfer, but honestly, how many people were shocked United got Veron for only 28 million pounds. Most people expected far higher, as in the 50's. In the end, they are two different types of players, and I think both are magnificent. Scholes may still be better used to the style of play, Veron is without a doubt, the more talented player.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Scholes has consistently been associated with a 30m+ transfer value which is not surprising considering that he is a goal scoring attacking midfielder of exceptional technique. Do you want me to go hunting links?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately, his ficticious value in the press and what he actually would sell for are likely two completely different numbers. 22m is still alot though. He most certainly would not net more than the likes of Veron or Nedved.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I wouldn't say Veron is a lesser player than Scholes - I think his talent is unquestionable, but just don't think that at the present time, our style suits him. Or his us.</strong><hr></blockquote>


seba's the most talented player we've got...


Keane and Veron is our best pairing.. and its quite evident that Seba's been improving in the last few weeks.. altho' he's been used as a holding midfielder in his last two games..with Keano being the attacking one....

I hope SAF uses Veron as a creative midfielder in future games, thats his best position... There's no point Seba playing a holding role coz its such a big waste of talent!

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Unfortunately, his ficticious value in the press and what he actually would sell for are likely two completely different numbers. 22m is still alot though. He most certainly would not net more than the likes of Veron or Nedved.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i reckon he'd go for nearer 30mil.

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Unfortunately, his ficticious value in the press and what he actually would sell for are likely two completely different numbers. 22m is still alot though. He most certainly would not net more than the likes of Veron or Nedved.</strong><hr></blockquote>

On balance, an in form Scholes is more value to the team at the moment than Veron. As far as value is concerned I think Sven's recent remarks about him being the complete player may have added a few bob to the valuation !

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

On balance, an in form Scholes is more value to the team at the moment than Veron. As far as value is concerned I think Sven's recent remarks about him being the complete player may have added a few bob to the valuation !</strong><hr></blockquote>

True, he's very valuable for us, but his continuity, tenure, and experience at OT wouldn't necessarily transfer to another club. Fees in excess of 30m are extremely rare. Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Owen, Shevchenko, and a few others would certainly break 30m - but not Scholes.

 

[benny]

The Keane -Butt partnership has been very powerful when its been played;Id like to see more of it ,especially for tough away games

 

[Julian Denny]

Its all a bit academic obviously but Fergie has an embarrassment of riches in midfield at the moment. Butt on current form shouldn't be left out as is the case with Scholes and you never know when JSV is going to turn it on. However United would certainly get its money back and some more if they decided to sell Veron at the end of the season - assuming he remains only a marginal influence for the rest of this campaign