Midfield combination - Defensive midfielder + two attacking midfielders

[roonster09]

Is this the new midfield set up that we will see common in PL, especially at top clubs.

Liverpool are heavily linked with Szoboszlai, so there is a very high chance that their midfield would be Szoboszlai, Fabinho, MacAllister

Arsenal's would be Odegaard, Rice, Havertz.

ManUtd - Bruno, Casemiro, Mount.

No idea about how City will set up, it's usually KdB, Rodri and one more CM or AM who will be playing higher up the pitch.

Looks like we will see attacking players with a DM, with fullbacks supporting the midfield as a common tactic when not long back 3 proper CMs was the popular go-to tactical set up especially on caf.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

The expectation was Casemiro to be a DM but that isn't how he's played. He's been relatively box-to-box

I have no idea where Mount plays. His most standout season came when he was playing off Werner. Can't see him playing that high with Fernandes everpresent

 

[JB08]

Yes, it does seem to be the way things are heading. When Guardiola came into the league a lot of people (myself included) questioned how he would get away with a midfield three of Fernandinho, Silva and De Bruyne, but he made it work. Nowadays you wouldn't blink twice at a midfield with 2 pure creators and a 'water carrier' as such in the no. 6 position.

 

[sullydnl]

Seems to be in vogue alright.

 

[the_cliff]

Is this the new midfield set up that we will see common in PL, especially at top clubs.

Liverpool are heavily linked with Szoboszlai, so there is a very high chance that their midfield would be Szoboszlai, Fabinho, MacAllister

Arsenal's would be Odegaard, Rice, Havertz.

ManUtd - Bruno, Casemiro, Mount.

No idea about how City will set up, it's usually KdB, Rodri and one more CM or AM who will be playing higher up the pitch.

Looks like we will see attacking players with a DM, with fullbacks supporting the midfield as a common tactic when not long back 3 proper CMs was the popular go-to tactical set up especially on caf.

It's been like that for a while now, a 4-3-3 with 2 attack minded 8s in front of a single pivot.

City do it as well with 2 of Bernardo/Gundo/KDB in front of Rodri. Although players like KDB/Bruno/Mount/Odegaard would be typically regarded as attacking midfielders or 10s their positional role in the team is more of a 8/10 hybrid.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/t...th-of-the-number-10-tactical-analysis-tactics

This is a good article on the death of the 10 position and the rise of the 8/10 hybrid.

I remember having an argument with a friend a while ago who claimed KDB is a 10 but he's basically a modern 8, he was even asked about it in an interview with the Athletic and his reply was interesting:



The traditional box to box midfielders seem to have become the new position of traditional 10s.

 

[roonster09]

It's been like that for a while now, a 4-3-3 with 2 attack minded 8s in front of a single pivot.

City do it as well with 2 of Bernardo/Gundo/KDB in front of Rodri. Although players like KDB/Bruno/Mount/Odegaard would be typically regarded as attacking midfielders or 10s their positional role in the team is more of a 8/10 hybrid.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/t...th-of-the-number-10-tactical-analysis-tactics

This is a good article on the death of the 10 position and the rise of the 8/10 hybrid.

I remember having an argument with a friend a while ago who claimed KDB is a 10 but he's basically a modern 8, he was even asked about it in an interview with the Athletic and his reply was interesting:

Yeah I remember City played that, especially from 2017-18 when they played KdB, Silva with Fernandinho. Now there are 3 more teams with similar set up, profile wise.

 

[the_cliff]

Yeah I remember City played that, especially from 2017-18 when they played KdB, Silva with Fernandinho. Now there are 3 more teams with similar set up, profile wise.

Plenty of teams have done it, Pep did it with his famous Barca team with the Busquests-xavi-Iniesta trio.

Ancelotti even used it in his famous la decima season, he used Di Maria and Modric in front of a Khedira pivot. That was probably Di Marias best season as well he was motm in the final, I always wondered why teams never tried to play Di Maria as an 8 after that season.

 

[AneRu]

With Bruno and Mount being capable and willing pressers I think there is a good chance it will work especially if we also get a number 9 who isn't lazy. I fully expect ETH to do with Licha what Pep did with Stones and deploy him in a CB/DM hybrid role that will see us benefiting from his playmaking and defensive abilities.

 

[pocco]

I can see how it works at City. They all work hard, they're all very good on the ball and can be fluid in their positioning. Hell, John Stones was the best midfielder on the park in the FA Cup final.

But I don't see it with our players. Lazy wingers. Bruno spends more time moaning when he loses the ball. Mount, Bruno and Case aren't exactly Rolls Royce on the ball to dominate games. Case can't cover the width of the pitch, which was evidenced a lot this season when we were countered on. Also, I don't see it in our defenders to play in midfield to the level that the likes of Stones (this season), TAA, Cancelo, Zinchenko etc have. They're just not as good on the ball.

 

[Borys]

I think it's a difficult setup and especially for United this will won't be easy to pull of. Actually Mount is probably the best suited to that setup, Casemiro IMO will be in troubles quite a lot as he can't cover much ground and Bruno is still an enigma in terms he isn't reliable on the ball and also his pressing IMO is not synced with the team at all. Bruno and Mount can run all day though so that's a good progress.

I would also question how often teams play with two attacking midfielders. Gundogan, Modric, Xavi, Silva and some others are much closer to typical all-round 8s than attacking midfielders really. So instead of

DM
AM----AM​

it's more like

DM - CM
AM​

with one CM joining attacks more often than in conservative two man midfield (like we played with McFred), and AM often drops a bit deeper to help progressing the ball.
This CM are #8s who have more license to go forward because fullcbacks tuck in and provide support for DM.

I can see how it works at City. They all work hard, they're all very good on the ball and can be fluid in their positioning. Hell, John Stones was the best midfielder on the park in the FA Cup final.

But I don't see it with our players. Lazy wingers. Bruno spends more time moaning when he loses the ball. Mount, Bruno and Case aren't exactly Rolls Royce on the ball to dominate games. Case can't cover the width of the pitch, which was evidenced a lot this season when we were countered on. Also, I don't see it in our defenders to play in midfield to the level that the likes of Stones (this season), TAA, Cancelo, Zinchenko etc have. They're just not as good on the ball.

Exactly this. I actually think our backline is the best suited to play that formation. But our forwards (apart from Antony) do feck all off the ball so we need a solid midfield.

 

[Cassidy]

The expectation was Casemiro to be a DM but that isn't how he's played. He's been relatively box-to-box

I have no idea where Mount plays. His most standout season came when he was playing off Werner. Can't see him playing that high with Fernandes everpresent

Thats called a DM in a top side.

 

[bond19821982]

I can see how it works at City. They all work hard, they're all very good on the ball and can be fluid in their positioning. Hell, John Stones was the best midfielder on the park in the FA Cup final.

But I don't see it with our players. Lazy wingers. Bruno spends more time moaning when he loses the ball. Mount, Bruno and Case aren't exactly Rolls Royce on the ball to dominate games. Case can't cover the width of the pitch, which was evidenced a lot this season when we were countered on. Also, I don't see it in our defenders to play in midfield to the level that the likes of Stones (this season), TAA, Cancelo, Zinchenko etc have. They're just not as good on the ball.

Lazy wingers ? Who exactly. Bruno is anything but lazy.

Yes, we aren't as good as City but we are building. Shaw, Licha ,Varane and Dalot isn't City level but still better than the collective units of Arsenal and Chelsea.

Trust the process - step by step. We were horrible from building the back until one year back but we can do it relatively okay now. Just wait until we get the new GK.

 

[pocco]

Lazy wingers ? Who exactly. Bruno is anything but lazy.

Yes, we aren't as good as City but we are building. Shaw, Licha ,Varane and Dalot isn't City level but still better than the collective units of Arsenal and Chelsea.

Trust the process - step by step. We were horrible from building the back until one year back but we can do it relatively okay now. Just wait until we get the new GK.

Bruno isn't a winger. But see my other point re Bruno.

 

[sullydnl]

Antony is our first choice RW and, whatever about any other flaws he has, he's very far from lazy.

The point about our defence is key though, I think. Where Arsenal have someone like Zinchenko who is obviously suited to inverting into midfield, I don't think any of our fullbacks are to the same extent. I'd feel a lot happier about this set-up if we had replaced AWB with a RB well suited to that role.

 

[Kaos]

Antony is our first choice RW and, whatever about any other flaws he has, he's very far from lazy.

The point about our defence is key though, I think. Where Arsenal have someone like Zinchenko who is obviously suited to inverting into midfield, I don't think any of our fullbacks are to the same extent. I'd feel a lot happier about this set-up if we had replaced AWB with a RB well suited to that role.

Shaw cuts into midfield plenty, in fact he's been a key distributor for us, sometimes centrally. Dalot to a lesser extent too.

 

[gajender]

Antony is our first choice RW and, whatever about any other flaws he has, he's very far from lazy.

The point about our defence is key though, I think. Where Arsenal have someone like Zinchenko who is obviously suited to inverting into midfield, I don't think any of our fullbacks are to the same extent. I'd feel a lot happier about this set-up if we had replaced AWB with a RB well suited to that role.

There is plenty of time to do so if Ten Hag do decide to sell AWB we might still be in for another RB.

 

[sullydnl]

Shaw cuts into midfield plenty, in fact he's been a key distributor for us, sometimes centrally. Dalot to a lesser extent too.

I know they do, I just don't think either are as good in those positions as someone like Zinchenko.

Plus it's questionable whether Dalot is good enough to be first choice generally, and when he doesn't play it will currently be AWB instead. And he's not someone I would be overly thrilled to see occupying those key central areas either. It's a relative weakness for us.

 

[Dannn411]

City and Liverpool have played like this since 2018. Arsenal started playing this way last year. Its a good way to play if you have a lot of the ball and want to constantly be on the front foot but when you lose the ball, you are screwed. Which is why all the proponents of this style mandate very intense pressing immediately aftwr the ball is lost. However, once your press is beaten, you are doubly screwed. Pep realised this and tweaked the style to address the glaring weakness by moving one CB up into midfield. Klopp did not adapt and finished 5th.

It also requires a big time DM that can totally dictate play like Rodri. DMs that aren't great on the ball will not work.

 

[bond19821982]

I know they do, I just don't think either are as good in those positions as someone like Zinchenko.

Plus it's questionable whether Dalot is good enough to be first choice generally, and when he doesn't play it will currently be AWB instead. And he's not someone I would be overly thrilled to see occupying those key central areas either. It's a relative weakness for us.

Shaw is better than Zinchenko and plays that role very effectively.

Ofcourse AWB is a disaster.

 

[sullydnl]

Shaw is better than Zinchenko and plays that role very effectively.

Ofcourse AWB is a disaster.

Shaw is better than Zinchenko generally. He absolutely isn't better than Zinchenko in terms of occupying that central midfield part of the pitch though, with Zinchenko having a lot of experience playing a legit CM, let alone a fullback inverting into that position.

 

[Powderfinger]

Its an attractive system because it gives you all of the following:

-Players well spaced across five lanes in attack when settled in possession
-A 4-4-2 defensive structure when settled out of possession
-A midfield box with four inside when progressing the ball
-A 2-3-5 counterpressing structure so that you can aggressively try win the ball back after turnovers and then recover toward the middle of the field if you don't win it.

I think there are a number of key hybrid players in this setup though.

-One of the "attacking 8s" has to be able to play in the middle of the second bank of four when defending, that's a key role for tracking runners and blocking passing lanes. Gundogan was the prototype here, I wonder about both United and Arsenal and who will have this responsibility in their midfield trios. At Arsenal I think its more likely to be Odegaard than Havertz.

-One of the defenders has to be able to move into midfield when progressing the ball so that you can make the four man box. Players who can do this well are actually really hard to find, its not just about technical level its about having fundamental midfielder skills - the ability to play with your back to goal, constant scanning and awareness, the ability to turn in tight spaces, etc. The players who do this really well tend to be former midfielders like Zinchenko or defenders who are extremely comfortable on the ball like Stones and Cancelo. This is why Arteta wants Timber, to be an option for this kind of thing on the right hand side, and also why he wanted Martinez. Personally, I think Martinez is the only player on the United squad that could play this role at a high level. I can see Shaw doing it but not to the required standard. He has the technical level but not everything else.

-You're going to need at least one of the five more defensive players to be capable of joining the attack and really forcing overloads because against deep defenses you can't just send five players into the box, whether that is a fullback that flips from inverting to overlapping (a la Ben White or Kyle Walker) or a CM that is adept at selectively joining the attack at the top of the box (ie Rodri, Casemiro).

 

[RedRonaldo]

I can see how it works at City. They all work hard, they're all very good on the ball and can be fluid in their positioning. Hell, John Stones was the best midfielder on the park in the FA Cup final.

But I don't see it with our players. Lazy wingers. Bruno spends more time moaning when he loses the ball. Mount, Bruno and Case aren't exactly Rolls Royce on the ball to dominate games. Case can't cover the width of the pitch, which was evidenced a lot this season when we were countered on. Also, I don't see it in our defenders to play in midfield to the level that the likes of Stones (this season), TAA, Cancelo, Zinchenko etc have. They're just not as good on the ball.

I don't think we will play the same way as City does. Instead we will try to play the way we did in FA cup final against City, which means having our front line and double no.8 to press high, lots of intensity in midfield and final third. Mount is basically bought to play Fred role, but with better passing, ball progression, and far more likely to score and assist when we are attacking.

 

[RaddyRed]

The expectation was Casemiro to be a DM but that isn't how he's played. He's been relatively box-to-box

I have no idea where Mount plays. His most standout season came when he was playing off Werner. Can't see him playing that high with Fernandes everpresent

Casemiro seemed to go off the boil when he stopped playing DM and more of a b2b mid.

Was a bit frustrating having the world's best dm and changing his role. Having Casemiro sat right in front of the defence allows the two attacking minds, or attack minded ones at least.

 

[El Jefe]

City have Stones in there too so I wouldn't say they have one DM but the do have more than one attacking CM. Fernandinho and Rodri were a lot more isolated in previous City teams.

Arsenal are the team that fit this and obviously Liverpool if they make their signings. I still have doubts that EtH will entirely commit to Bruno and Mount in CM.

There's only two ways to operate this system, either being an extreme possession based team or an aggressive counterpressing team like Klopp's earlier Liverpool. We don't fit into either yet in my opinion.

This system isn't actually new to Klopp as he used it in his first season with Lallana and Wijnaldum who at the time were purely attacking mids and had Can as the lone DM.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Its an attractive system because it gives you all of the following:

-Players well spaced across five lanes in attack when settled in possession
-A 4-4-2 defensive structure when settled out of possession
-A midfield box with four inside when progressing the ball
-A 2-3-5 counterpressing structure so that you can aggressively try win the ball back after turnovers and then recover toward the middle of the field if you don't win it.

I think there are a number of key hybrid players in this setup though.

-One of the "attacking 8s" has to be able to play in the middle of the second bank of four when defending, that's a key role for tracking runners and blocking passing lanes. Gundogan was the prototype here, I wonder about both United and Arsenal and who will have this responsibility in their midfield trios. At Arsenal I think its more likely to be Odegaard than Havertz.

-One of the defenders has to be able to move into midfield when progressing the ball so that you can make the four man box. Players who can do this well are actually really hard to find, its not just about technical level its about having fundamental midfielder skills - the ability to play with your back to goal, constant scanning and awareness, the ability to turn in tight spaces, etc. The players who do this really well tend to be former midfielders like Zinchenko or defenders who are extremely comfortable on the ball like Stones and Cancelo. This is why Arteta wants Timber, to be an option for this kind of thing on the right hand side, and also why he wanted Martinez. Personally, I think Martinez is the only player on the United squad that could play this role at a high level. I can see Shaw doing it but not to the required standard. He has the technical level but not everything else.

-You're going to need at least one of the five more defensive players to be capable of joining the attack and really forcing overloads because against deep defenses you can't just send five players into the box, whether that is a fullback that flips from inverting to overlapping (a la Ben White or Kyle Walker) or a CM that is adept at selectively joining the attack at the top of the box (ie Rodri, Casemiro).

Agree with this. I think a trend of hybrid between 8/10 is still coming in this era. Since it will add creativity and not lose that much of the work rate upfront or middle of the pitch. Another trend like you said will be a meta or even meta in the future is a four-man box midfielder since it helps a lot in structure or build-up from the back. It could be both an invert fullback or an invert center-back.

 

[pocco]

I don't think we will play the same way as City does. Instead we will try to play the way we did in FA cup final against City, which means having our front line and double no.8 to press high, lots of intensity in midfield and final third. Mount is basically bought to play Fred role, but with better passing, ball progression, and far more likely to score and assist when we are attacking.

That's what worries me about this move. I think we need to become more possession based rather than playing how we did last season. I don't think we'll get away with our sometimes kamikaze approach where we push loads of players forward, I don't think Casemiro can cover that area and I don't think we're strong enough in possession to control games this way.

Even Klopp has realised he can't press all the time and needs to hold the ball, and at their best they were streets ahead in their pressing than we've shown.

 

[mshnsh]

The best midfield 3 I've seen interms of balance was that of AC Milan in the mid noughties: Pirlo (a classy deep lying playmaker), Gatusso (the tackler who did all the dirty work) and Seedorf (midfielder who could attack, score and defend). I remember we played them in 2005 but could not get near them; was painful.

 

[saivet]

It also requires a big time DM that can totally dictate play like Rodri. DMs that aren't great on the ball will not work.

Agreed, think it also spans to the wider team. If the midfield or team can't hold onto the ball or win the ball back in the opposition half, it will be exposed in transition or in the defensive third. City have used Gundo who is more of a traditional no.8 and Liverpool have had Henderson there in previous who definitely isn't an attacking midfield.

 

[sullydnl]

Assuming all of us, Arsenal and Liverpool will indeed be setting up this way, who has the strongest midfield in that de facto 3-2-5 shape?

X
X - X - X
Rice - Zinchenko
X - Odegaard - X - Havertz - X

X
X - X - X
TAA - Fabinho
X - Mac Allister - X - Soboszlai - X

X
X - X - X
Casemiro - (Shaw/AWB/Dalot)
X - Bruno - X - Mount - X​

 

[arnie_ni]

Assuming all of us, Arsenal and Liverpool will indeed be setting up this way, who has the strongest midfield in that de facto 3-2-5 shape?

X
X - X - X
Rice - Zinchenko
X - Odegaard - X - Havertz - X

X
X - X - X
TAA - Fabinho
X - Mac Allister - X - Soboszlai - X

X
X - X - X
Casemiro - (Shaw/AWB/Dalot)
X - Bruno - X - Mount - X​

Martinez could push forward into midfield and leave Shaw to go up and down the wing. That's the way city do it, they push their cb stones in and walker goes up and down the flank.

 

[Dominos]

There was a time I think when most people would have thought playing De Bruyne and David Silva in the same midfield 3 would be a disaster, too attacking, too lightweight, not defensively sound enough. But it worked a treat, though I'm not sure if you could argue the lack of steel was their downfall in the champions league for many years.

What works for Pep's teams though might not be particularly applicable to everyone else given their players barely ever lose possession of the ball. The more turnovers of possession you have, the more trouble you're in when you play 2 very attacking players in your midfield and having them high up the pitch. That's something I'm very concerned about for United given we often can't go 10 seconds without someone inexplicably losing the ball. It's also ideal to have a DM who's very good with the ball and has the legs to cover a lot of ground.

People are too obsessed with 433 vs 4231 I think. Most 4231 set ups have one of the 2 sitting midfielders pushing forward a lot more than the other so it becomes a lopsided 433 when you look at average positions at the end of the game. And any 433 ends up lopsided as they tend to have one more disciplined/reserved midfielder playing as an 8.

Whether it's 4231 or 433 it's about having balance in the qualities. If one of your 8s has any weakness in terms of physicality, defensive ability or ball retention then your other 8 should have qualities that cover that.

I'm not convinced partnering Odegaard or Bruno with another very attacking 8 is ideal, but I guess we'll see.

 

[kaku06]

The best midfield 3 I've seen interms of balance was that of AC Milan in the mid noughties: Pirlo (a classy deep lying playmaker), Gatusso (the tackler who did all the dirty work) and Seedorf (midfielder who could attack, score and defend). I remember we played them in 2005 but could not get near them; was painful.

And then Kaka just behind Sheva or Crespo. Oh it was painful indeed. The second leg at San Siro in 2007 where they hammered us 3-0 was one of the most painful and humbling nights in Europe as a United fan. That stung.

 

[Newtonius]

Bloody hope so been wanting to see it since Ole started always thought 4-3-3 is the best formation.

Iirc played it during his caretaker reign to relatively great success, Pogba, Herrera Matic etc, and then we switched to that dreadful 4-2-3-1 with Lingard at the center when he got the full time job.

 

[Theonas]

The best midfield 3 I've seen interms of balance was that of AC Milan in the mid noughties: Pirlo (a classy deep lying playmaker), Gatusso (the tackler who did all the dirty work) and Seedorf (midfielder who could attack, score and defend). I remember we played them in 2005 but could not get near them; was painful.

Those were all classy players indeed and 3 CL finals winning 2 is an impressive record. They also definitely schooled us in some of our encounters at the time. But we have to remember they won a grand total of one league title and 1 Coppa Italia during that period. Hardly what you'd call best.

 

[NLunited]

With Bruno and Mount being capable and willing pressers I think there is a good chance it will work especially if we also get a number 9 who isn't lazy. I fully expect ETH to do with Licha what Pep did with Stones and deploy him in a CB/DM hybrid role that will see us benefiting from his playmaking and defensive abilities.

I expect the fullbacks to do that because we have seen them do it this season, not Martinez.

 

[sullydnl]

Martinez could push forward into midfield and leave Shaw to go up and down the wing. That's the way city do it, they push their cb stones in and walker goes up and down the flank.

He could do but so far ETH has had one of the fullbacks tucking in so I'd guess he'll continue with that.

 

[bosnian_red]

The expectation was Casemiro to be a DM but that isn't how he's played. He's been relatively box-to-box

I have no idea where Mount plays. His most standout season came when he was playing off Werner. Can't see him playing that high with Fernandes everpresent

He's extremely DM, just because he is a DM though doesn't mean they contribute nothing on the ball. But by definition he doesn't roam much and sweeps up behind the 2 more advanced mids, wins the ball back and then starts attacks.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's not really anything new, the weirder part is everyone doing the same thing at the same time. Newcastle, Spurs and Chelsea the outliers as of now. Chelsea are looking to get a Jorginho - Kante type double pivot it seems with Enzo and Caicedo, so a bit different. Newcastle more just a workman like midfield where all 3 are combative (Bruno quality, the other two more energy), and then Spurs no idea what their midfield will look like as I read Hojbjorg might leave.

But you'll have 4 sides all building a very progressive system - United and Liverpool more counter pressing focused, City and Arsenal more tiki taka focused.

Mount - Casemiro - Bruno
Havertz - Rice - Odegaard
Mac Allister - Fabinho - Szoboszlai
KdB - Rodri - Kovačić/Bernardo

City of anything trending more defensive than the others, interestingly.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Let’s see how it works but I don’t think Casemeiro is good enough on the ball for it to truly click. Unless the other two or one of them keep dropping deep very effectively

 

[E-mal]

City and Liverpool have played like this since 2018. Arsenal started playing this way last year. Its a good way to play if you have a lot of the ball and want to constantly be on the front foot but when you lose the ball, you are screwed. Which is why all the proponents of this style mandate very intense pressing immediately aftwr the ball is lost. However, once your press is beaten, you are doubly screwed. Pep realised this and tweaked the style to address the glaring weakness by moving one CB up into midfield. Klopp did not adapt and finished 5th.

It also requires a big time DM that can totally dictate play like Rodri. DMs that aren't great on the ball will not work.

Exactly the point I have been trying to make and why I was critical of Mount's signing to play that role.