Mavericks and Liabilities Draft - R1 - Sjor vs Mike

Who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
SJOR BEPO:

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MICHAEL:

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SJOR BEPO TACTICS:

Tactics:

352 with Valeron as the center piece. Team that can mix it up a bit, can easily go high press and more possession based just like they can drop a bit deeper and play on the counter.

Juan Carlos Valeron
Crown jewel of the famous Deportivo side that was everyone favorite team in the early 00s. Fantastic side that played attractive football with little to no global stars which was refreshing in Spain at the time cause it was a Galatico Era at Madrid. Sadly they never done it in the league, went runners up twice in a row but at least they won the Copa del Rey in Real Madrid backyard to stop them completing a treble in their centenary season.
For two years on the spin they provided the winners of the Pichichi trophy for the top scorer in La Liga: Diego Tristan with 21 in 2001-2002 and Roy Makaay with 29 goals in 2002-2003.With Valeron behind them, it was no coincidence. Makaay described the Canary Islander as the best player he ever played with.



They did their magic in Champions League as well taking scalps of great Arsenal side, Man United, Bayern and most famously Milan after overturning a 4:1 deficit from the first game with a 4:0 spectacle at Riazor.

Who is Valeron and what does he need?
A true number 10, there were plenty of better 10s in the history of the game but if you ever needed a textbook number 10 then he is your guy. Great spatial awareness, defenders just couldnt get near him even though he didnt run that much, nor was he fast or even strong - he was just too smart. Fantastic eye for a pass, matched with a great range of passing but unlike lets say Riquelme he wasnt trigger happy, he had that balance of what to do in every situation rather then forcing a killer pass too often. Player that loved a one two with his teammates, probably not a surprise David Silva adores him and was modelling his game on his idol - which is why he wore n21 during his whole career.
In this team i surrounded him with players with proven track record of being a great supporting cast. He has everything here that he needs to shine - 9 hardworking, defensively sound players that can cover his potential weaknesses alongside a 3 at the back system that gives the team a good amount of protection.
On the ball there is everything, players that are great in possession, plenty of players to play his "tiki taka" game and plenty of runners of the ball to offer him options for a through pass.

Fernando Hierro
Very odd player, at one point he can completely shut down peak Fenomeno but on another occasion he can be destroyed by some random average joe. Considering his pros and cons, decided to play him in a libero role with 4 players that are perfectly capable of playing in a back 4 in odd case he gets dragged away from the defensive shape. On the ball he can play it around with ease and find more advanced players even through potential high press of the opposition. He also had an insane goal record of 102 goals in 439 games at his time in Madrid which is insane.

MICHAEL TACTICS:

My team will play a 5-3-2 formation as follows:
GK: Jose Luis Chilavert
LIB: Ronald Koeman
RCB: Claudio Gentile
LCB: Pietro Vierchowod
LWB: Antonio Benarrivo
RCM: Marco Tardelli
LCM: Obdulio Varela
AM: Sandro Mazzola
RS (#9): Alberto Spencer
LS (Deeper): Enzo Francescoli

"Liability" - Ronald Koeman

Ronald Koeman was a brilliant attacking defender both in terms of long range passing and goal scoring (he is the top scoring defender of all time). In his three seasons at PSV Koeman scored 19 goals in 39 games, 26 goals in 46 games and 18 goals in 45 games before scoring 19 goals in 48 games in his first season at Barcelona. These numbers would be considered acceptable although not elite for strikers/inside forwards in our drafts never mind a defender. Koeman was particularly adept at free-kicks from both long and short range with journalist Rob Smyth describing his free-kicks as follows:
We tend to associate Koeman with that particular type of free-kick, where he would lace the ball in a manner that was paradoxically sledgehammer rather than silk, yet if anything he was more adept at the seductive, shorter-range curler. As with his penalties, when he would charge towards the ball like a man with murder in mind only to tap it gently into the net, part of the skill was in the deception. With Koeman, there was more than one way to skin a defensive wall; as all Englishmen know well, he could flippin' flip one as well.
My team takes advantage of Koeman's attacking strengths in a multitude of ways. Firstly the defensive set up around him gives him complete freedom to get forward and attack (Even if Koeman was removed from the team, the back 6 is still elite particularly in this draft where many ATG's have been blocked). Secondly, the pace of Alberto Spencer (who was used to playing in a counter attacking team with quick transitions at Penarol) will take full advantage of Koeman's long range passing. Thirdly, the opponent's defending will be effected by the knowledge that it is extremely dangerous to give away free-kicks in advanced positions which should make Mazzola, Francescoli and Spencer more difficult to defend against.

Koeman's main perceived defensive weakness on this forum and for most of his time at Barcelona was his lack of pace. However a post in this topic at PES Stats Database argues that this was due to achilles tendon surgery and that before this his pace wasn't slow but also wasn't quick either. In this 2017 article in the Manchester Evening News it is confirmed that Koeman injured his achilles in 1990. Koeman also played significantly less games both in the league and in total during the 1990-91 season than in his other seasons at Barcelona. Therefore, given that none of my opponent's attackers are renowned for their quickness and the strength of the defensive unit around him (Vierchowod in particular was one of the quickest defenders in the world), I am not worried about Koeman's pace in this match.

"Maverick" - Enzo Francescoli

Enzo Francescoli won many individual honours over a long career. He was South American Footballer of the Year in 1984 and 1995, Argentine Footballer of the Year in 1985 and 1995 (the first non-Argentine to win this award), Copa America player of the Tournament in 1983 and 1995, a member of the South American Team of the Year in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997, Foreign Player of the Year in France in 1990 and the Argentine Primera Division Top Scorer 3 times 10 years apart. Francescoli was a two footed playmaker who could play as a #10, SS or a ST who was renowned for his dribbling and passing skills as well as his ability to score goals (he scored 25 in 32 for River Plate in 1985-86 for example). He could also play deeper as he did at Cagliari where he did well enough to be included in a fans voted All-Time Cagliari XI. In my set up he can create chances for Spencer in a more advanced role and Mazzola from midfield. The inclusion of Mazzola also provides creative assistance for Enzo without taking away from his role as the main play maker. In my team he should also have an important goal scoring role.

Other Strengths and Advantages


  • I see Leandro's crossing ability combined with Spencer's aerial ability as a good route to goal
  • In a strong defensive unit I would like to highlight Pietro Vierchowod who was described by Maradona as his toughest opponent, by van Basten as one of the best defenders he ever faced (along with Riccardo Ferri) and in 1992 by Batistuta as the best defender in the world
 
think we both did well with maverick/liability, both play same/similar system so it should come down to quality and IMO i have the edge in pretty much every position
 
think we both did well with maverick/liability, both play same/similar system so it should come down to quality and IMO i have the edge in pretty much every position

Agree with most of this except I think I have the edge in most positions.
 
About as close to a draw as I can imagine. Both teams set up pretty much identically, and where 1 team has the obvious stand out in a head to head the next position is usually the opposite
 
@Šjor Bepo What was the thinking behind Tostao? I am a big fan of his but thought you would go for more of a runner like Elkjaer to get on the end of Valeron's passing.
 
@Šjor Bepo What was the thinking behind Tostao? I am a big fan of his but thought you would go for more of a runner like Elkjaer to get on the end of Valeron's passing.

Valeron loved to combined with others so was desperate to get at least one in front of him with great "tiki taka" skills.
 
Valeron loved to combined with others so was desperate to get at least one in front of him with great "tiki taka" skills.

That makes sense although, IIRC, didn't Valeron basically always play in a 4231 with two wingers and a big man reference point up front? He played behind Raul in a 4231 for Spain which never worked. Please note I am not saying Valeron wouldn't work well behind Rooney and Tostao, it was just a historical question.
 
That makes sense although, IIRC, didn't Valeron basically always play in a 4231 with two wingers and a big man reference point up front? He played behind Raul in a 4231 for Spain which never worked. Please note I am not saying Valeron wouldn't work well behind Rooney and Tostao, it was just a historical question.

no idea about spain though at that tram they didnt work no matter who played with who....

from memory i do remember depor playing with front two quite often, in which formation i have no clue
 
no idea about spain though at that tram they didnt work no matter who played with who....

from memory i do remember depor playing with front two quite often, in which formation i have no clue

According this piece they were primarily a 4231 side.



Although it doesn't talk much about the role of Valeron.
 
According this piece they were primarily a 4231 side.



Although it doesn't talk much about the role of Valeron.


no idea tbh, im talking purelly from memory so could easily be wrong, anyways...wasnt interested in remakes, surrounded him with what i thought is a great supporting cast and system for him to shine.
 
no idea tbh, im talking purelly from memory so could easily be wrong, anyways...wasnt interested in remakes, surrounded him with what i thought is a great supporting cast and system for him to shine.

I have no issues with that. I think he looks great here. My question was primarily historical.
 
According this piece they were primarily a 4231 side.



Although it doesn't talk much about the role of Valeron.

From memory they played 4-4-2 on the turn of the century more often than not. They had Tristan/Makaay as a striking pair with Djalminha and Valeron as tucked wingers or Victor as a right midfielder and Valeron moved inside with Mauro Silva holding.

Occasionally they might have played 4-2-3-1 as there was Fran on the left and some other lad in the middle next to Silva, who I can't remember.
 
Leaving my questions aside here, I really think Sjor has the edge on creativity here. Overath and Tigana will provide far more creativity from deep than Varela and Tardelli. Also from memory, I could be wrong though, Mazzola was a ball carrying dribbling type rather than a passer which is what you really want from a 10 in a 3412. Sjor will score more here.
 
Leaving my questions aside here, I really think Sjor has the edge on creativity here. Overath and Tigana will provide far more creativity from deep than Varela and Tardelli. Also from memory, I could be wrong though, Mazzola was a ball carrying dribbling type rather than a passer which is what you really want from a 10 in a 3412. Sjor will score more here.

Ha ha. I voted for the same reason, but for Mike :lol:

Dead even teams, but felt Enzo and Mazzola are the most creative players and that gave him the edge.
 
Ha ha. I voted for the same reason, but for Mike :lol:

Dead even teams, but felt Enzo and Mazzola are the most creative players and that gave him the edge.

no problem with thinking that mike will score more, but neither enzo not mazzola are that creative and you have valeron, tostao, alves, overath and feck even rooney
 
That overath - tigana duo is a clever touch. Overath can drifting to the left, while Tigana to the right. There's just so much creativity in Sjor's, I don't think that's even a contest. Rooney and Tostao are finishers while also capable playmakers. Even Alves is a capable playmaker also. I'm expecting Sjor's to dominate the game. Perhaps, what it lacks there is pace/speed in attack.

Although Mike has a team that capable of sucker punched any team with that supply from Koeman at the back, and Mazolla - Enzo-Spencer axis in attack.
 
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Leaving my questions aside here, I really think Sjor has the edge on creativity here. Overath and Tigana will provide far more creativity from deep than Varela and Tardelli. Also from memory, I could be wrong though, Mazzola was a ball-carrying dribbling type rather than a passer which is what you really want from a 10 in a 3412. Sjor will score more here.
For me, if they play in real life, I can see Mazzola and Enzo exchanging positions during the game. Mazzola could operate brilliantly at SS, just like Enzo.
 
That overath - tigana duo is a clever touch. Overath can drifting to the left, while Tigana to the right. There's just so much creativity in Sjor's, I don't think that's even a contest. Rooney and Tostao are finishers while also capable playmakers. Even Alves is a capable playmaker also. I'm expecting Sjor's to dominate the game. Perhaps, what it lacks there is pace/speed in attack.

Although Mike has a team that capable of sucker punched any team with that supply from Koeman at the back, and Mazolla - Enzo-Spencer axis in attack.

cheers, regarding pace up front....rooney? guy was a beast at his peak
 
That overath - tigana duo is a clever touch. Overath can drifting to the left, while Tigana to the right. There's just so much creativity in Sjor's, I don't think that's even a contest. Rooney and Tostao are finishers while also capable playmakers. Even Alves is a capable playmaker also. I'm expecting Sjor's to dominate the game. Perhaps, what it lacks there is pace/speed in attack.

Although Mike has a team that capable of sucker punched any team with that supply from Koeman at the back, and Mazolla - Enzo-Spencer axis in attack.

Yep, they both look lethal on the counter, but Sjor's team looks like they could better intersperse that with more measured, effective possession phases too. I think Rooney provides the necessary pace and power up front.
 
Yep, they both look lethal on the counter, but Sjor's team looks like they could better intersperse that with more measured, effective possession phases too. I think Rooney provides the necessary pace and power up front.
cheers, regarding pace up front....rooney? guy was a beast at his peak

Of course Rooney has good pace. I probably undersold him, whatnot with that famous vs Arsenal counterattack. But just in general with Tostao and Valeron there.
 
Those 98-02 Spain teams were held back by Camacho's mediocre managing imo, if i remember rightly he even had Valeron and Guardiola ( a sloth by this years) as the midfield 2 in basically a flat 4-4-2 at one point.

Not sure if Tigana is best suited as the most or only defensive focused player, especially with two playmakers; i see him more as a great sidekick midfield player to bring balance to others with narrower roles. He's usually had someone else in a more defensive/physical role in the games i've watched: Rene Girard ( no not that one!) as a holding/defensive midfield workhorse at Bordeaux and Fernandez in the NT. They would get through a lot of the dirtier, thankless midfield work and cover for Tigana's runs forward and also not being the strongest player around.The French NT midfields where he only had playmakers to work with were not good defensively. This midfield 2/3 (when Valeron drops back, a relatively feeble presence compared to the athletic Mazzola) is more balanced than those were, as Overath sits more and puts a solid amount of defensive work in, but i'd say as much of an edge as it has in creativity, it also lacks defensively.

I think as far as tactical edge goes, a lot could revolve around the two "liabilities" and whoever covers the ground between the lines most effectively. Koeman will be trying to make up for the relative weakness in creativity with his passing, while Hierro tries to bring more solidity and physical presence in support of midget Tigana and playmaker Overath.
 
Those 98-02 Spain teams were held back by Camacho's mediocre managing imo, if i remember rightly he even had Valeron and Guardiola ( a sloth by this years) as the midfield 2 in basically a flat 4-4-2 at one point.

Not sure if Tigana is best suited as the most or only defensive focused player, especially with two playmakers; i see him more as a great sidekick midfield player to bring balance to others with narrower roles. He's usually had someone else in a more defensive/physical role in the games i've watched: Rene Girard ( no not that one!) as a holding/defensive midfield workhorse at Bordeaux and Fernandez in the NT. They would get through a lot of the dirtier, thankless midfield work and cover for Tigana's runs forward and also not being the strongest player around.The French NT midfields where he only had playmakers to work with were not good defensively. This midfield 2/3 (when Valeron drops back, a relatively feeble presence compared to the athletic Mazzola) is more balanced than those were, as Overath sits more and puts a solid amount of defensive work in, but i'd say as much of an edge as it has in creativity, it also lacks defensively.

I think as far as tactical edge goes, a lot could revolve around the two "liabilities" and whoever covers the ground between the lines most effectively. Koeman will be trying to make up for the relative weakness in creativity with his passing, while Hierro tries to bring more solidity and physical presence in support of midget Tigana and playmaker Overath.

thought it was more then enough considering its a back 5(in todays game where emphasis is more then even on defensive shape and workrate, chelsea did it with a pairing of kante and jorginho and them as pair are much worse then tigana overath) and also has two strikers that have a great defensive game.
 
thought it was more then enough considering its a back 5(in todays game where emphasis is more then even on defensive shape and workrate, chelsea did it with a pairing of kante and jorginho and them as pair are much worse then tigana overath) and also has two strikers that have a great defensive game.

I bought as you had a back 5 as Hierro provides similar cover to the DM like Fernandez. That said wouldn't a Kovacic Kante midfield be a better comparison than Jorginho and Kante.
 
I bought as you had a back 5 as Hierro provides similar cover to the DM like Fernandez. That said wouldn't a Kovacic Kante midfield be a better comparison than Jorginho and Kante.

jorginho kante won the CL thats why i used them + defensively they are worse then Kovacic Kante pair
 
Kick-off - The teams are out here at the Nou Camp with a crappy attendance of 41,000 to watch Sjor and Michael duke it out.
 
Half-time - A thoroughly uneventful first-half sees the teams trudge in at 0-0.
 
60 - GOOOOOOOALLLLL - The ball is in the net and that's man Spencer, scoring a header from a Leandro cross just as Michael predicted.

But hold on! A VAR check shows that maverick Enzo was offside - no goal!

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67 - GOOOOALLLL! No ruling out this one, it's Sandro Mazzola who opens the scoring.

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72 - GOOOALLL! Sjor bounces back as Overath twats one in off his trusty left peg.

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