Manager vs Squad?

Pogue Mahone

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Obviously I’m all aboard the ETH hype train but when you see the fecking massive difference to our quality when you swap out Casemiro and/or Martinez does anyone else wonder how things would turn out in a parallel universe with the two of them in Jose or Ole’s squad?

And yeah, signing good players is the manager’s responsibility but it‘a kind of fascinating to see what a massive difference striking gold with just one or two signings can make…
 
Manager is responsible for the squad as well. Ole and Mourinho had enough of a say every season to decide who they want to buy. They chose Pogba, Maguire, Lukaku as their bigger buys.

Actually, It isn’t even about the squad. Casemiro alone would’ve improved every single of their teams.
 
Nickelodeon said:
Manager is responsible for the squad as well. Ole and Mourinho had enough of a say every season to decide who they want to buy. They chose Pogba, Maguire, Lukaku as their bigger buys.

Actually, It isn’t even about the squad. Casemiro alone would’ve improved every single of their teams.
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Half of me thinks that a decent number of the signings we've made over the last decade were not completely down to the manager. Players like Di Maria who clearly wanted elsewhere, or others who Woodward desperately brought in for shirt sales and marketing.

Don't get me wrong, there have been a number of decent players brought in, but the amount of straight flops is ridiculous and it can't be consistent throughout managers the extent to which signings have been fecked up surely.
 
Ole and Mourinho would have never gone for Martinez in the first place, it would never work in their mind. It is EtH's tactical insight that makes him play such a player, and even two of that ilk when he was at Ajax.
 
A bit of both. The managers role is overstated in recent years with the fictitious notion that managers can turn water into wine and turn average players into great ones.

I’ve always thought of it as the squad determines the height of the ceiling, it’s the managers job to reach it.
 
I may buy a fighter jet but won't know what to do with it. Irrespective of how good a player is, he will fail if not put in the right setup. Also ETH has improved enough players in the squad already to turn this point moot. Look at AWB, Rashford, and Shaw for a change. They all look like new signings.
 
Have to agree with what some have already said in that i just couldn't see Martinez being a Jose or Ole signing at all, not in a million years. Casemiro definitely, although i don't think he would have helped either of those sides retain possession as much. Worth remembering we had Varane last year who, when he actually played, wasn't nearly as impressive or commanding as he's been this season.
 
Mindhunter said:
I may buy a fighter jet but won't know what to do with it. Irrespective of how good a player is, he will fail if not put in the right setup. Also ETH has improved enough players in the squad already to turn this point moot. Look at AWB, Rashford, and Shaw for a change. They all look like new signings.
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Is Shaw better than he was in the EC year you'd say?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Obviously I’m all aboard the ETH hype train but when you see the fecking massive difference to our quality when you swap out Casemiro and/or Martinez does anyone else wonder how things would turn out in a parallel universe with the two of them in Jose or Ole’s squad?

And yeah, signing good players is the manager’s responsibility but it‘a kind of fascinating to see what a massive difference striking gold with just one or two signings can make…
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Jose would probably never play Eriksen where he plays for us. Would probably never sign or play Martinez at CB. Shaw wouldn’t play at LB. Jose likes big physical units. He’d love Weghorst but would probably loan Ashley young to cross balls in cutting in from left back. No chance Sancho gets a game either.

Ole would probably bench Casemiro and play McFred.
 
AjaxCunian said:
Is Shaw better than he was in the EC year you'd say?
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I would say this is the best Shaw has ever been. The closest season to compare would be the one where he broke his leg under LVG.

However, Shaw’s defensive solidity and attacking contributions with his crossing and assists is the best it’s ever been.
 
If ETH has showed us one thing after the torrid 10 years we've had is that manager is the most important signing a club will make (in the PL at least).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Obviously I’m all aboard the ETH hype train but when you see the fecking massive difference to our quality when you swap out Casemiro and/or Martinez does anyone else wonder how things would turn out in a parallel universe with the two of them in Jose or Ole’s squad?
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Not really. But I do think that if we had signed a functional midfielder in the 2021 window instead of Ronaldo, Ole would probably still be here and ten Hag would be at Chelsea, so I'm kinda glad that didn't happen, though we had to endure the Rangnick period.

Do think you need both to be successful. With midfielder under Ole we might have made top four but wouldn't be any closer to silverware.
 
You need both if you want to be successful. And to illustrate that you just need to have a look at Real Madrid under Benitez, Lopetegui or Solari.
 
Chief123 said:
I would say this is the best Shaw has ever been. The closest season to compare would be the one where he broke his leg under LVG.

However, Shaw’s defensive solidity and attacking contributions with his crossing and assists is the best it’s ever been.
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I agree it's his best season but he was damn good that season under Ole just before the Euros, which made his precipitous drop in form the following season all the more infuriating.
 
Chief123 said:
I would say this is the best Shaw has ever been. The closest season to compare would be the one where he broke his leg under LVG.

However, Shaw’s defensive solidity and attacking contributions with his crossing and assists is the best it’s ever been.
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Personally I'd say he was better in 20/21. His set pieces are better this season, but I don't think his all-round game is quite as good. In 20/21 he was dominating the entire side of the pitch, both offensively and defensively, even more than he is this season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Obviously I’m all aboard the ETH hype train but when you see the fecking massive difference to our quality when you swap out Casemiro and/or Martinez does anyone else wonder how things would turn out in a parallel universe with the two of them in Jose or Ole’s squad?

And yeah, signing good players is the manager’s responsibility but it‘a kind of fascinating to see what a massive difference striking gold with just one or two signings can make…
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Obviously winning builds togetherness but I can’t see Ole and definitely not Jose building the kind of team spirit Ten Hag has.
 
Chief123 said:
I would say this is the best Shaw has ever been. The closest season to compare would be the one where he broke his leg under LVG.

However, Shaw’s defensive solidity and attacking contributions with his crossing and assists is the best it’s ever been.
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I think you're right on the first one, but he was #7 in the league on creating chances in 2020-21, just a few chances less created than "undisputed world number 1 best back the game has ever seen" Trent.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Obviously I’m all aboard the ETH hype train but when you see the fecking massive difference to our quality when you swap out Casemiro and/or Martinez does anyone else wonder how things would turn out in a parallel universe with the two of them in Jose or Ole’s squad?

And yeah, signing good players is the manager’s responsibility but it‘a kind of fascinating to see what a massive difference striking gold with just one or two signings can make…
Click to expand...
No.

Firstly, those 2 would have bought Rice for £100m instead. Secondly, even if they did get Casemiro/Martinez, they would most likely not know how to use them properly. Can you really imagine Martinez playing in Jose's team as a central defender? No chance. Both Ole and Jose bought the players that were supposed to suit their philosophy and both failed at that.
 
Casemiro and Martinez make a big difference when on the pitch, but so do Rashford and Shaw and they were both around under Mourinho and Ole. The ETH hype is justified and thats not only down to his signings but the mentality he's instilled into the squad in general. I even wonder If Casemiro has ever been as good as he is now under ETH. Rashford and Shaw certainly have never been as good as they are now. ETH is tailormade for utd and that's down to a lot more than just 2 signings
 
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Obviously key players make a difference. You only need to look at the immediate impact Bruno had when we signed him.
You also need some luck, as I am not sure we would have signed Case if the ridiculous FdJ pursuit had been successful.
The latter may also be a good player but he doesn’t bring the full package Case does including mentality and experience.
But then you also need to have a manager who knows how to integrate a player in a team and system and get the best out of that player and the entire team. And that’s where ETH has upper hand compared to the previous managers.
 
It's manager all the way. Elite players make a squad better regardless, but the biggest impact is seen in an already defined system. We are still a good side without Casemiro or Martinez, but the system is made with them in mind. A shit/unsuited manager wouldn't get the best out of them and would make elite players look wasted (Pogba under Mourinho...).

See Pep with De Bruyne. City obviously better with him. Still elite without him. Would not be anywhere near as elite without Pep.
 
Having top players would have helped anyone, but Ole also had a lot of top players that looked bang average in a terrible dressing room that lost faith in their manager and their own abilities. Case last season might have looked terrible at that team.
 
Clearly the manager. Just remember what happened to a title-winning team once Moyes took over in 2013.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's manager all the way. Elite players make a squad better regardless, but the biggest impact is seen in an already defined system. We are still a good side without Casemiro or Martinez, but the system is made with them in mind. A shit/unsuited manager wouldn't get the best out of them and would make elite players look wasted (Pogba under Mourinho...).

See Pep with De Bruyne. City obviously better with him. Still elite without him. Would not be anywhere near as elite without Pep.
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Pogba isn't an elite player.

Agree with the rest though. The buck stops with the manager ultimately.
 
el3mel said:
Pogba isn't an elite player.

Agree with the rest though. The buck stops with the manager ultimately.
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Pogba was seen as an elite player for Juve, was an elite player for France, and then had some elite periods at United all the same despite his issues and our teams issues. For me, he is a prime example. A player who would be seen unanimously as an elite player, was used horrendously for years, never given the right partners in midfield, and made to look like "wasted potential" ultimately. It's hard to attach to much blame to him when our managers were garbage during his time, our midfield balance was garbage, and our teams were constantly going from one disaster to the other.

Pogba under a proper manager in a team that wasn't a disaster, would have shown the same world class level he showed before he joined United, and the same world class level he showed for France. It's the same how Frenkie de Jong looks elite in some environments, and looks average in others. It's on the manager to get the best of them and give them a platform to show they can be elite players.
 
bosnian_red said:
Pogba was seen as an elite player for Juve, was an elite player for France, and then had some elite periods at United all the same despite his issues and our teams issues. For me, he is a prime example. A player who would be seen unanimously as an elite player, was used horrendously for years, never given the right partners in midfield, and made to look like "wasted potential" ultimately. It's hard to attach to much blame to him when our managers were garbage during his time, our midfield balance was garbage, and our teams were constantly going from one disaster to the other.

Pogba under a proper manager in a team that wasn't a disaster, would have shown the same world class level he showed before he joined United, and the same world class level he showed for France. It's the same how Frenkie de Jong looks elite in some environments, and looks average in others. It's on the manager to get the best of them and give them a platform to show they can be elite players.
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Pogba was never an elite player. "Seen" is different from what he actually was. He was always overhyped, but he was never the player people were making him out to be.

It's not a surprise our midfield looks way better and balanced now without the continuous thinking about how to shoehorn him in and how to modify everything for his favor which ultimately ruined everything. His presence was a huge reason for the team's unbalance.

The buck stops with the manager, and part of the manager's job is to get rid of players who hurt the team's system and doesn't benefit it, like whan Ten Hag did with Ronaldo for example. Pogba was also an example of such players, and thank God Ten Hag didn't have to worry about the presence of his arse in the team when he came.
 
el3mel said:
Pogba was never an elite player. "Seen" is different from what he actually was. He was always overhyped, but he was never the player people were making him out to be.

It's not a surprise our midfield looks way better and balanced now without the continuous thinking about how to shoehorn him in and how to modify everything for his favor which ultimately ruined everything. His presence was a huge reason for the team's unbalance.

The buck stops with the manager, and part of the manager's job is to get rid of players who hurt the team's system and doesn't benefit it, like whan Ten Hag did with Ronaldo for example. Pogba was also an example of such players, and thank God Ten Hag didn't have to worry about the presence of his arse in the team when he came.
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Our midfield looks better because we have Ten Hag in (and Casemiro, an actual DM). You think Eriksen would have looked remotely balanced in midfield under Ole or Mourinho next to McTominay or Fred? Yeah fecking right! It's the managers job to get a player performing, and knowing how to balance them. Pogba will forever be seen as a wasted talent, but the reality is that our managers were the biggest people to blame for wasting his talent. He wasn't an "elite player" ultimately because the incompetent fools we had in charge during his time here (certainly first 4 years) firstly had no clue what to do with him but also more important had no clue how to implement a cohesive system. Whether Pogba was or wasn't an elite player was irrelevant. He could have been one is my argument, and the single biggest reason why he was not one (until injuries took over) was because United was a disaster club from a coaching perspective.

The same applies to countless other players who flopped here post Sir Alex. If a club is a mess like we've been, it is incredibly difficult for a player to actually perform. Fair fecks to the few who manage to put in good seasons like Bruno. But our problem was less the players who were signed, more the manager not knowing how to implement a system that works for them.
 
bosnian_red said:
Our midfield looks better because we have Ten Hag in (and Casemiro, an actual DM). You think Eriksen would have looked remotely balanced in midfield under Ole or Mourinho next to McTominay or Fred? Yeah fecking right! It's the managers job to get a player performing, and knowing how to balance them. Pogba will forever be seen as a wasted talent, but the reality is that our managers were the biggest people to blame for wasting his talent. He wasn't an "elite player" ultimately because the incompetent fools we had in charge during his time here (certainly first 4 years) firstly had no clue what to do with him but also more important had no clue how to implement a cohesive system. Whether Pogba was or wasn't an elite player was irrelevant. He could have been one is my argument, and the single biggest reason why he was not one (until injuries took over) was because United was a disaster club from a coaching perspective.
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Manager's job is to get players suited for his desired style performing, and getting rid of those who doesn't suit his style or will cause unbalance for the team. Pogba wouldn't have worked as well as Eriksen did under Ten Hag's system because Eriksen is simply a better all rounder player and also more suited for what Ten Hag wants from his midfield. He also doesn't have half the ego or power of Pogba to force everything to be built around him like Pogba. The current United side doesn't have a main player whom the entire tactics revolve around getting him in form and this is the reason it's doing well, no more focusing on Pogba, Ronaldo or even Bruno. Everyone do their job.

No one forced Pogba to stay at United for 6 years if it was United's fault that "wasted his talent", but the reality is we all knew no other big club cared about buying him or even offering a reasonable offer and that's why he stayed that long. The only offer he got during these 6 years was a crap one from Barcelona that offered some of their bench players in replacement from what I remember. That's it. That's how the other big clubs valued Pogba. When he left the only club who got him was his old club Juve.
 
AjaxCunian said:
Is Shaw better than he was in the EC year you'd say?
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Yes he is better now, for a start he uses his right foot now and then which he never did before, he's also a much better ball carrier and he can also put a decent shift as a LCB
 
Red in STL said:
Yes he is better now, for a start he uses his right foot now and then which he never did before, he's also a much better ball carrier and he can also put a decent shift as a LCB
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Fair points, don't think I agree.

But I do think players play closer to their potential with EtH, which is effectively him making players better.
 
The best illustration actually comes from Chelsea.

Conte inherited a squad from Mouninho (which was Champion - flop before), turned it into Champion instantly. Then within 1 season, flop again.

Lampard inherited a team with 0 addition, managed Top 4. Tuchel inherited a flop team from Lampard, managed to win Champions League.

Good manager can always move you up 1-2 positions in the League table, that's why Big Sam had a "almost" gold license plate.
 
Chief123 said:
I would say this is the best Shaw has ever been. The closest season to compare would be the one where he broke his leg under LVG.

However, Shaw’s defensive solidity and attacking contributions with his crossing and assists is the best it’s ever been.
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Come on now let's not pretend Shawberto has never been a thing under Ole. He had 2 class seasons and then then fell off last year.
 
flappyjay said:
Come on now let's not pretend Shawberto has never been a thing under Ole. He had 2 class seasons and then then fell off last year.
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Ye he was also decent under LVG up until his injury. His worse seasons came under mourinho id say but that’s because he criticised him every week.
 
Looking at how Chelsea have done it during Abromovich's era I would say the squad over the manager. Same as Madrid too. These clubs sacked managers, kept on winning. Obviously if you have a figure like Sir Alex/Wenger I say chose those over the squad. They always had the interests of their respective clubs at heart.
 
Ten Hag is working miracles with the squad he has. We have some genuinely brilliant players in Varane, Martinez, Casemiro, Bruno and Rashford, but without them we would be stuck in sixth, a bit like where we were last season, even with Ten Hag at the helm.

The West Ham game the other night was all the evidence you needed. The likes of McTominay, Maguire and Lindelof are miles off and when they play we’re shite.

Ten Hag needs more players.
 
flappyjay said:
Looking at how Chelsea have done it during Abromovich's era I would say the squad over the manager. Same as Madrid too. These clubs sacked managers, kept on winning. Obviously if you have a figure like Sir Alex/Wenger I say chose those over the squad. They always had the interests of their respective clubs at heart.
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Let's look at Chelsea's managers since the Abramobich era began.
Managers (caretakers excluded) with 60+% win percentage: Mourinho (1st stint), Ancelotti, Conte, Sarri, Tuchel. 11 major trophies won.
Below 60%: Scolari, Villas-Boas, Mourinho (2nd time, his downfall starts from that), Lampard, Potter (maybe a bit early but he is doing terribly so far). 2 major trophies won.

To me there is quite a visible line between those 2 groups and Chelsea's success correlate with how good the manager is regarded in football world.
 
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