Manager draft - TRV(Guardiola) VS MJJ(Lippi)

[Annahnomoss]

THE TEAM

We will play a 4-3-3 formation. Manuel Neuer would be the goalkeeper. He would play as a sweeper-keeper like he does for Bayern Munich and Germany NT. The back four comprises of Philipp Lahm, Carles Puyol, Gerard Piqué and Éric Abidal. Philipp Lahm and Éric Abidal would play as full-backs, who would have the lincense to overlap and provide the width down the flanks. Gerard Piqué would be the sweeper while Carles Puyol would be the stopper. Gerard Piqué's form has deteriorated in the last few years but under Pep Guardiola, especially in the first couple of seasons, he and Puyol were arguably the best central defence in Europe. Together, they were instrumental in FC Barcelona being the first club to win thesextuple and also bring Spain their first FIFA World Cup, home.

Ahead of them, is a three man midfield of Sergio Busquets, Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta. Sergio Busquets would play as a holding midfielder whose role would be to not only cover and protect the back four but also to link the defence with the advanced midfield duo of Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta. Xavi Hernández is the metronome of the team. He would control the tempo of the game and would also look to initiate the attacks. Playing ahead of the the midfield maestro, Xavi would be The Illusionist, Andrés Iniesta. Andrés Iniesta would play as an attacking midfielder who would not only link the midfield with the attack and create the openings for the attack to exploit but also would support the midfield when the opposition has the possession.

Upfront, we have an attacking triumvirate of Arjen Robben, Lionel Messi and Thierry Henry. Arjen Robben would play in his natural role as a right-wing-forward, where he would look to isolate the opposition defenders in one-on-one situations and then simply skin them inside out. On the other flank, we would have Thierry Henry playing as the left-wing-forward/left-sided-second striker, the role he played under Pep Guardiola in the 2008/09 season. Having someone like Thierry Henry gives the team, the license to interchange and create futher confusion amongst the opposition defenders. Spearheading the attack, is Lionel Messi. What is there to say about him? Arguably the greatest club footballer of all time, Lionel Messi would play as a false nine, a role which he mastered under Pep Guardiola. Whenever, Lionel Messi drops deep and thereby dragging the opposition centre-backs with him, that would create space in the defence which the likes of Thierry Henry and Arjen Robben would look to exploit with their pace and penetration. In Lionel Messi, Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta, there are three of the finest passers in the modern era who could find the openings and provide the final ball for Thierry Henry and Arjen Robben to finish it off.


THE TACTICS

Like Pep Guardiola's FC Barcelona side, we will play a 4-3-3 formation. We would play a high backline and look to press relentlessly and aggressively from the front, thereby making the transition for MJJ, from defence to attack, difficult. The high intense pressing would mean, their players won't get enough time on the ball to create proper openings to exploit. Éric Abidal would play in a slightly more reserved role, as the hybrid centre back/left back like he used to under Pep Guardiola to ensure, we don't get outnumbered on counters.

If MJJ plays a deep backline and decides to park-the-bus in front of the goal, Andrea Pirlo is then extremely vital for his attack as he is the only one in that midfield and defence who is a good passer and can initiate counter-attacks. This is where Pep Guardiola's pressing tactics comes into the play. Andrea Pirlo, while a fantastic player struggles when pressed. Teams who employ or have employed that tactics against Andrea Pirlo have been successful in negating Andrea Pirlo's impact. This 2014 World Cup for instance. England didn't press Andrea Pirlo at all, and he dominated the game in midfield. But, both Costa Rica and Uruguay pressed him and ensured he wouldn't get enough time on the ball to pick out those passes. The entire Barcelona unit, especially in attack and midfield was master at pressing with high intensity. Its one of the reasons why they had such a good record against Real Madrid. Like MJJ's team here who depend soley on Andrea Pirlo's incisive passing to initiate counter-attacks for them, Real Madrid depended on Xabi Alonso, but both Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta pressed him ferociously and didn't let him stamp his authority on the ball. So, most of the times, the Real Madrid team and the defenders had to resort to hoofing. Ronaldo is one of the finest and most devastating strikers of all time but we must consider his form under Marcello Lippi, which was far from being that good. He only managed to play eight games under him and scored three goals, out of which two were from penalties


-------------------------------TEAM TRV------------wddwd--------------------------------------TEAM MJJ

VS

 

[Annahnomoss]

Team MJJ(Lippi)

Tactics

My side will be employing the 4-3-3 used by lippi to great success. The midfield is defensively solid and sets up a base from for the attackers to exploit with their talents.

The forwards are going to move into spaces instead of being a static front three and exploit the gaps that open up with crappy's weaker defensive line. The defense and midfield are going to defend based on positioning, with a deep defensive line and not pressing anyone unless they had cover behind them. Only pressing when the ball is near my goal hence making sure no gaps open up for messi and co to exploit.

While the front three are going to push on and press crappy's centreback and deepest midfielder thus winning the ball closer to goal and exploiting it to the maximum front. While defending baggio is going to stick close to busquets and thus take out the option of the easy back pass which xavi and iniesta so enjoy and make raees lose some control of possession.

GK- One of the greatest italian goalkeepers of all time, peruzzi enjoyed great success under lippi. Winning Serie A keeper of the year twice.
Defense-

Zambrotta is considered as one of Italy's greatest pundits and was at the peak of his powers under lippi, getting into the Uefa Euro team of the year in 2004.
While inter under lippi were disappointing, there is no question that zanetti was as good as he ever was, captain under lippi, zanetti was one of the positives in a disappointing season for inter.
Ferrera and Thuram- Both excelled under lippi forming what was then considered then one of the best defenses in the world.

My defense is formed of physically imposing players who are good at the ball and wont be caught out by crappy's attack. Zanetti and Zambrotta in particular will enjoy running down the flanks and crossing it in for vieiri.

Midfield-

Deschamps- One of the finest defensive midfielders in world football, deschamps played under lippi from 94-99, winning the french footballer of the year(96) along the way.
Conte- Juvenus captain and one of the best midfielders of his generation.
Pirlo- One of the best players that italy has produced, quite possibly the best regista(deep lying playmaker) in the history of football. A player who will redefined the position and played a major part in Italy's 2006 WC win under lippi. Ending up with the bronze ball and being the joint assist leader.

Sub-

Jugovic-One of the best serbian players ever and a top midfielder of his generation. Jugovic played a key role in the 96 Champion League Triumph.

The midfield is formed of some of the best players in history, all three of them are defensively sound and capable of transitioning defense into attack at a moment's notice.

Attack-

Baggio- Possibly the greatest italian player of all time, baggio was at the peak of his powers when lippi took over . Placing second in the Ballon D'Or and one year on from winning the european and world player of the year.
Vieri- Vieri played for Lippi no fewer than three times in his career but his 1999 version is being used here when he won the serie A player of the year and signed for inter for a world record fee.
Ronaldo- El Fenomono! Ronaldo was at the peak of his powers when lippi took over, having just starred in a WC and Copa America. Despite spending the majority of this time under lippi, there was no questioning his ability as he proved whenever fit.

Sub-
Del Piero- Juventus Legend, Del Piero played the majority of his career under Lippi.

Key Battle

Ronaldo and Pirlo- Playing a high line against a pacy forward who is an exceptional dribbler is risky, when that forward is ronaldo the risk turns into madness. Pirlo's ability to play quick, forward passes combined with ronaldo should ensure that my side isnt goal-less in this encounter.

Baggio- The reason why xavi and iniesta dominated games to such a large extent was because they always had an out ball to busquest. That option will be taken away from them here with baggio pre-occupying busquests and dragging him out of position time and time again.

No room for messi and co:- Just like inter in 2008, I am going to eliminate the gap between my midfield and defense by playing two great defensive midfielders who will ensure that there will be no space between the lines for messi to explore or behind my lines for the pacy players to run on to i.e. all avenues of attack will be occupied.

Right-Footed Leftback:- Having Zambrotta playing as a left back is going to prove a huge advantage since whoever TRV plays on the left wing will look to drift in and zambrotta being on his stronger foot should give him an edge most of the time.

Vieri- Vieri is going to manhandle TRV's defense and will prove an excellent out ball incase he is needed. Vieri, Ronaldo and Baggio should ensure that TRV is never too comfortable in defense with the latter two being exceptional dribblers as well while the former is gonna bully his defenders ala drogba.

 

[MJJ]

one thing I will say this early, messi won't be dragging my centrebacks away as when he drop deeps deschamp or/and conte will pick him up as for pirlo being pressed out of the game, many players have tried and failed.

 

[Annahnomoss]

What pushes it for me is that the key to beating that Barcelona side was to have every single player, even your attackers on the right side of the ball. That takes world class defensive jobs from the strikers which I just don't see happening here. Having one of Vieri, Ronaldo or Baggio up front would have been enough, then compensated by hard workers who would primarily focus on winning the ball back - and secondary on what happens after the ball is won back. Considering the quality of Baggio, I would probably squeeze him in just based on individual quality but him and Ronaldo would have all the necessary tools to lock up Pique and Puyol over a game as long as the team won enough balls back and delivered it forward well enough.

Not sure why Vieri's physicality will add anything in this match up. Pique and Puyol are both good in the air and aiming for Vieri's head instead of Baggio/Ronaldo's feet is just wrong. Jugovic would have been brilliant, the entire midfield with Deschamps, Jugovic and Conte would be extremely close to the relentless work rate and intelligence nous of Atletico Madrid and with Pirlo there they'd have the delivery as soon as they won the ball to take it forward.

If you don't have the ball, step one is winning the ball back.

 

[MJJ]

@annah am not just aiming for vieri head though but rather that is an option available to me. while pique and puyol are both good in the air, its a fact that drogba got a lot of joy against them largely due to his physicality.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@MJJ whose your subs?

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ whose your subs?

del piero, Di livio and jugovic.

another point, alves was crucial to that barca side in terms of stretching the play and carrying the ball with lahm in his place it means trv has to go through an already congested middle instead of having that option out wide.

 

[MJJ]

and the fact that I have a huge height advantage on set pieces with thuram, ferrara, vieri, and ronaldo. with baggio and del peiro being two exceptional takers.

 

[Balu]

I like the idea of Ronaldo and Baggio playing off Vieri. I think he can bully Pique physically while Puyol has to be the one to cover Ronaldo, Abidal to tuck in to help against Baggio. It's a great set-up to hurt that Barca highline. Get the ball over the midfield pressing, in behind Busquets and run 3 vs 3 towards goal. The big question is if you have often enough the ball to make it count and if you have the players to get the ball forward. Annah has a point in that Pirlo needs time on the ball to control the game and is somewhat vulnerable to pressing. But the 2006 World Cup version of Pirlo was mobile enough to find his moments to pick a great pass and MJJ's defender aren't mugs on the ball either. They won't get many chances here, but how many do Baggio, Ronaldo need?

another point, alves was crucial to that barca side in terms of stretching the play and carrying the ball with lahm in his place it means trv has to go through an already congested middle instead of having that option out wide.

Rightback Lahm might not be as attacking as Alves, but he has a great understanding with Robben and constantly overlaps and provides width, if the manager wants him to. Ferrara and Zambrotta have their work cut out with Robben and Lahm on the wing. Abidal doesn't provide much going forward and Henry of '09 against Zanetti, Thuram doesn't look that dangerous to me, but then there's Messi with only Pirlo nearby. That will drag at least one of the midfielders or Thuram away.

Both teams will score, that's the only thing I'm sure of at the moment.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

another point, alves was crucial to that barca side in terms of stretching the play and carrying the ball with lahm in his place it means trv has to go through an already congested middle instead of having that option out wide.

Thats true. If Lahm is there I'd much rather have Alaba on the left than Abidal, as Alaba is much better in attacking.

Why not start with Del Piero instead of Vieri? I think DP can give you a little bit more flexibility with Baggio there in the attack and Vieri makes it a little bit easier to defend as he is less dynamic.

 

[harms]

I don't think that Robben-Lahm pairing lacks width in comparison with Alves-Pedro to be fair, even if it does, the gap isn't big. They are much more versatile too.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Voted for TRV. The cohesiveness of the entire side is just too good in comparison to the Lippi side. It has taken United two years now to try and fiddle with tactics and we just can't seem to get it right so a team where everybody has played in these exact set up with the players around them fulfilling almost exactly the same roles is just too big of an advantage.

Ronaldo is of course nowhere near his peak self, he only played a couple of matches just back from injuries and the season before Inter rarely started Baggio and Ronaldo together in the CL - but rather one of them if I don't mis-remember that. So even if MJJ also has some cohesiveness in the side TRV just has an overall edge as a unit.

 

[Skorenzy]

I'd give the edge to TRV, don't think there are many teams in history that could go toe-to-toe (as opposed to reactionary) with that central Barça spine at its peak. Problem areas: Baggio on Busquets, Pirlo sole playmaker (what happens when he gets shut down?), opp. RW overload, who picks up Messi? (@MJJ have you specifically instructed your CBs not to go with Messi when he drops deeper or you reckon they won't need to because of your MF cover? because in my opinion they could be bypassed quite often through the overload that Barça spine would create in MF when your CB doesn't fall in to make up the numbers or Baggio inevitably doesn't go with Busquets). Also, what your reference to Inter 2010 doesn't take into account is that in this context there isn't an Ibrahimovic taking up Messi's space, so I don't know whether that's the most relevant template to extrapolate from (Chelsea and maybe even recent Atlético are probably better examples)... At the moment Ronaldo looks the odd one out to me, throw say a Nedved-type player in there instead and I'd feel a lot more confident about their ability to cope in both transition phases.

Issues with TRV, questions regarding Henry and Robben's ability/probability of performing tactical and defensive duties required for their roles? What made that 2010-11 Barça side so brilliant in attack was the way Villa and Pedro were complete team-players in both transition phases (incredibly important in creating space for Messi by making decoy runs). Henry only had one season (2009-10) where he played a similar-ish role and he wasn't a starter anymore by then, so very little to go on. As for his tracking back, I also have my doubts and with Abidal needing to tuck in that would leave a lot of space and opportunity for Zanetti. No questions over Robben's work rate or defensive duties in the last couple of years, but would he additionally make the same sort of in-to-out decoy runs? (one for @Balu).

I like the idea of Ronaldo and Baggio playing off Vieri. I think he can bully Pique physically while Puyol has to be the one to cover Ronaldo, Abidal to tuck in to help against Baggio. It's a great set-up to hurt that Barca highline. Get the ball over the midfield pressing, in behind Busquets and run 3 vs 3 towards goal. The big question is if you have often enough the ball to make it count and if you have the players to get the ball forward. Annah has a point in that Pirlo needs time on the ball to control the game and is somewhat vulnerable to pressing. But the 2006 World Cup version of Pirlo was mobile enough to find his moments to pick a great pass and MJJ's defender aren't mugs on the ball either. They won't get many chances here, but how many do Baggio, Ronaldo need?

Both teams will score, that's the only thing I'm sure of at the moment.

1st bold, yeah theoretically trying to be direct and bypassing their MF is the way to go, but realistically how many (aerial) duels are Ronaldo and Baggio going to win here? Focus will be on Vieri, who is a great choice IMO but as a whole I don't think the reward of that trio outweighs its risks. A more energetic, all-round MF type who is comfortable taking up wide positions (could Jugovic fit that description?) in for Ronaldo would solve a lot of issues in my opinion (incl. blunting the Lahm-Robben axis).

2nd bold, currently I only see one structurally viable goal threat for MJJ, bypassing TRV MF with Pirlo playing long balls into Vieri who knocks them down for the other two (incl. set-pieces which seems fairly evenly contested considering personnel on both sides). Unless you can convince me that Pirlo would get enough time and space on the ball to play pinpoint passes in behind TRV's DF. Another route could be Zanetti going forward and crossing, but that's likely only going to be occasional because of the risks. Meanwhile, TRV has potential overloads in the middle and on their right side which will both cause constant, systemic goal threats.

3rd bold, yup.

 

[Balu]

but would he additionally make the same sort of in-to-out decoy runs? (one for @Balu).

Let's say he makes less decoy runs. He's moving a lot and making off the ball runs in behind the defence, but he definitely expects more touches than Pedro did and won't be happy if Messi uses his runs mostly as a decoy. I think that's a good thing though. He's an additional threat from outside the box which no one in that Barca team offered. His presence alone is in a way a decoy. That wasn't the case with Pedro.

If you want more of those in-to-out decoy runs, you need to pick/play Müller. Really depends on what you want and if you want to run everything through Messi in the final third or want a plan B.

 

[PedroMendez]

During the last years people were always saying that Barca needs another thread next to Messi and Barca clearly identified that themselves as an issue. The transfers of Sanchez and Neymar both attempts to fill this role. One problem with those two is, that they eventually werent/arent confident enough to do their dribbling thing out wide, when Messi desperately wants the ball. I have absolutely no doubt that Robben would do his thing regardless of what other people tell him - even if Messi is a bit grumpy about that.
That said, for me this is prime Messi who is way more willing to share the ball and work for the team. I think Robben would work brilliant next to him. I have still my problems with Henry. I jsut dont rate him that high and I am not entirely sure what he adds to this side. Still TRV upgraded a brilliant barca team with Neuer, Robben and Lahm. Thats a scary side.

My biggest concern about MJJ is that his forwards are lazy and thats exactly what you dont want to have against Barca. I remember Drogba dropping back as left wingback for parts of a match against Barca. Thats unthinkable with Baggio and Vieri. Offensively this trio is a threat - knock the ball to vieri who lays it off to ronaldo/baggio is scary. The dealbreaker here is imo Pirlo. Even prime Pirlo would suffer in this game. He is not the player you want to have on the pitch, especially in a three men midfield.

 

[MJJ]

Thats true. If Lahm is there I'd much rather have Alaba on the left than Abidal, as Alaba is much better in attacking.

Why not start with Del Piero instead of Vieri? I think DP can give you a little bit more flexibility with Baggio there in the attack and Vieri makes it a little bit easier to defend as he is less dynamic.

Del Piero does offer more flexibility but given the joy drogba had agains the barca defenders I wanted to have the option of having a big physical target upfront to occupy both his CBs. With Pirlo picking up either baggio or ronaldo runs or any other midfielder lumping it to vieri I feel I will get enough chances to score and win the game.

 

[MJJ]

Voted for TRV. The cohesiveness of the entire side is just too good in comparison to the Lippi side. It has taken United two years now to try and fiddle with tactics and we just can't seem to get it right so a team where everybody has played in these exact set up with the players around them fulfilling almost exactly the same roles is just too big of an advantage.

Ronaldo is of course nowhere near his peak self, he only played a couple of matches just back from injuries and the season before Inter rarely started Baggio and Ronaldo together in the CL - but rather one of them if I don't mis-remember that. So even if MJJ also has some cohesiveness in the side TRV just has an overall edge as a unit.

If you want to talk about cohesiveness, how do you think pique/puyol would react to one of neuer's mad rushes out of the box? Compared to that most of my players have played together, the defense specially is used to each other while none of the rest are being used that differently compared to teammates at club levels.

 

[MJJ]

..

Goal Threats

1)Vieri as you mentioned
2) Pirlo picking up the runs of baggio/ronaldo. Pirlo's ability to quickly transition defense into attack is amongst the best in the football history and he only needs a split second to do so. Furthermore, its not that easy to shut him down given his dribbling ability and the options availble to him here with conte and deschamps on either side of him.
3) Since deschamps and conte are sitting in front of the defense, my CBs wont follow him there since he will be marked by a player already. I agree that TRV can overload my RW but that will leave him short on the back with only 3 against 3 similarly when busquests ventures forward which will present a scoring opportunity to me.
4) While I lose out on not playing defensive forwards, both ronaldo and baggio were exceptional dribblers. Once they have the ball, its not easy to get it off them and both will carry the ball a long distance.
5)Inter/chelsea/atletico. The formula remains the same. Have a deep defensive line with two defensive midfielders while having someone who can quickly transition the ball into attack. Pirlo works brilliantly here as all he need is a split second to make a difference and having three upfront will ensure that my side isnt too defensive.

 

[harms]

If you want to talk about cohesiveness, how do you think pique/puyol would react to one of neuer's mad rushes out of the box? Compared to that most of my players have played together, the defense specially is used to each other while none of the rest are being used that differently compared to teammates at club levels.

They were more than comfortable with Valdes being the last defender, doing almost what Neuer's been doing, just not to that extent, why wouldn't they be ok with Neuer? And I don't think that you can play "proven partnerships" card here

 

[MJJ]

They were more than comfortable with Valdes being the last defender, doing almost what Neuer's been doing, just not to that extent, why wouldn't they be ok with Neuer? And I don't think that you can play "proven partnerships" card here

am not playing the proven partnership card, annah is. am pointing out how silly it is given his defense has never played together.

valdes has never been as reckless as neuer and doesn't rush half out of his defense.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The clear advantage for MJJ is probably Baggio. Busquets is a very key component of that midfield and without him that midfield will not be that close to it's peak and Baggio there creates a crucial role for Busquets. Even with Baggio 'occupied', he still has Pirlo to dictate play. that front 3 is also awesome.

The biggest advantage for TRV is to exploit MJJ's lack of width and need to commit full backs for wide play. Both Gattuso and Seedorf were adept at drifting out wide, but I'm not sure of Deschamps in left here. As much as I like Zambrotta (who I think is good in a diamond), he is not ideal for this opposition. As I said in match thread, the best way to contain TRV's attack would be for full back's to tuck in and support the CB's, one of whom should be comfortable and pacey stepping up to deny Messi space.

I kind of rate Robben cutting there are more dangerous than Henry so would prefer if Zane and Zambo are swapped. Adds more balance imo. Thuram is better capable of supporting Zambo and Ferrara is better suited to step up to deny Messi space. (Zambo and Zane sounds like Batman and Robin )

Both attacks are good enough to exploit the respective defensive gaps and I expect both teams to score. Will read a bit more discussion before voting.

 

[harms]

am not playing the proven partnership card, annah is. am pointing out how silly it is given his defense has never played together.

valdes has never been as reckless as neuer and doesn't rush half out of his defense.

"The boss has always told me I should take part in the team's play," Valdes said of previous coach Pep Guardiola last year. "There are times when I have to play as a libero - that's my role. Guardiola has helped me interpret football."

He played the same role as Neuer. Just not that good, because he is an inferior player - that's why he was labeled as a stupid and mistake-prone goalkeeper. Pique and Puyol are used to leave the ball for their keeper - and Neuer doesn't come out when it isn't needed, he comes out when he needs to prevent a threat and defenders can't do it for him. You somehow tried to label one of Neuer's biggest strengths (especially when Pep is on the bench) as his and system weakness. I don't agree with you at all.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Good coincidence that I just started on Pirlo's I think therefore I play today!

 

[MJJ]

"The boss has always told me I should take part in the team's play," Valdes said of previous coach Pep Guardiola last year. "There are times when I have to play as a libero - that's my role. Guardiola has helped me interpret football."

He played the same role as Neuer. Just not that good, because he is an inferior player - that's why he was labeled as a stupid and mistake-prone goalkeeper. Pique and Puyol are used to leave the ball for their keeper - and Neuer doesn't come out when it isn't needed, he comes out when he needs to prevent a threat and the defenders can't do it for him. You somehow tried to show one of Neuer's biggest strengths (especially when Pep is on the bench) as his and system weakness. I don't agree with you at all.

If you want to talk about cohesiveness, how do you think pique/puyol would react to one of neuer's mad rushes out of the box? Compared to that most of my players have played together, the defense specially is used to each other while none of the rest are being used that differently compared to teammates at club levels.

Did I? I love neuer as a goalkeeper and wish we had signed him ages ago but arguing that valdes rushes out of the box even half as much as neuer is wrong. Valdes was extremely comfortable with the ball at his feet but he wasnt a pure sweeper keeper ala neuer.

And I was countering annah's point that his team has more cohesiveness, not using it as a weakness. If someone is going to argue that my midfield wont gel that well together because I have replaced jugovic with pirlo, I can easily pull the same argument back that his defense wont gel as well.

I didnt bring it up in the OP as personally I feel its insignificant while discussing draft teams but if you are gonna judge teams based on cohesiveness, you cant just ignore the fact that neuer is probably one of the most unique players in world football in the recent past.

 

[harms]

Ok, I get what you are saying here.

On Pirlo though - I genuinely believe that he isn't the right guy for you in this particular game. It's just that his main weakness is exploited by Pep's tactics - and I get the feeling that he is crucial for your set-up here. I voted for TRV mainly because of him

 

[MJJ]

Ok, I get what you are saying here.

On Pirlo though - I genuinely believe that he isn't the right guy for you in this particular game. It's just that his main weakness is exploited by Pep's tactics - and I get the feeling that he is crucial for your set-up here. I voted for TRV mainly because of him

Yup, thats fine. I personally feel a younger version of piro wont get pressed out of the game and will still make an impact enough for me to win the game but can see why someone will take that as a weakness, and he is a crucial part of my setup so no complaints if you vote against me on that part.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Shocking team selection from the Viper, I have to say - never saw that one coming!

Seriously, though - can't fault the man for that. Bit boring, though.

I half agree with several of the points made on both sides so far. Annah has a point regarding the work rate/defensive capabilities of the forwards. But we're getting to a stage, I feel, where overrating this Barca side becomes a problem. We can't ignore the quality of the players involved completely. An utter bus-park approach isn't necessary if you are A) willing to let Barca do a bit of dancing, even grab a goal and B) have the quality necessary to come up with an answer or two yourself: MJJ's attacking options are excellent. I agree with Balu - there will be goals. And I don't think Pep's Barca are particularly comfortable in a match which turns into some sort of toe-to-toe thing.

Looking at the teams, TRV sports pretty much one of the best club sides in history. But that's it, to put it like that. It's arguably an upgrade on that team - but it's certainly not a huge one. MJJ on the other hand sports something very different, a fantasy side based on Lippi's players and principles. Again, the sheer quality of the players can't be ignored in the name of fairness.

 

[antohan]

Not sure why Vieri's physicality will add anything in this match up. Pique and Puyol are both good in the air and aiming for Vieri's head instead of Baggio/Ronaldo's feet is just wrong.

Why not start with Del Piero instead of Vieri? I think DP can give you a little bit more flexibility with Baggio there in the attack and Vieri makes it a little bit easier to defend as he is less dynamic.

Why exactly is Vieri taken as this big lump upfront? You make him sound like Duncan Ferguson. Even then, having a battering ram of a centreforward to play off upfront is quite useful, but Vieri also adds significant pace, the man was a runaway bulldozer and would be a good foil in a setup with Ronaldo and Baggio. I'd argue it's one of those two that is surplus to requirements, not Vieri.

In fact, Vieri-Del Piero is a fantastic combo of what that trio offers, but using just two players, if not the more shiny ones.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Pirlo does need a bit of time - yes. Less than you'd think, though. And he's definitely one of those players who manage, somehow, to get just that time - even when he's surrounded by players who are hounding him.

I don't see him as a problem here, actually. Defensively he'll get great help here from both Deschamps and Conte - who are both very clever and very disciplined players. In that sense Pirlo is plenty protected.

I do see a potential problem, though, as far as width is concerned. I would have liked a clear outlet for Pirlo on the flanks - see Edgar's Seedorf point above. As it stands, the latter will have to be provided by Zambrotta or Zanetti, both of whom are perfectly capable of providing it, of course, but it means taking bigger risks.

 

[MJJ]

Pirlo does need a bit of time - yes. Less than you'd think, though. And he's definitely one of those players who manage, somehow, to get just that time - even when he's surrounded by players who are hounding him.

I don't see him as a problem here, actually. Defensively he'll get great help here from both Deschamps and Conte - who are both very clever and very disciplined players. In that sense Pirlo is plenty protected.

I do see a potential problem, though, as far as width is concerned. I would have liked a clear outlet for Pirlo on the flanks - see Edgar's Seedorf point above. As it stands, the latter will have to be provided by Zambrotta or Zanetti, both of whom are perfectly capable of providing it, of course, but it means taking bigger risks.

Baggio and Ronaldo in my opinion are good enough to provide the width though with both drifting wide when needed. Its not a proper subsitute for a winger but given that barca played narrow, I think it will be enough as an outlet pass.

 

[antohan]

It's unlucky of @MJJ that he has met such a finished product and fully-functioning oppo. I can see both sides scoring, but he would have to be very lucky to outscore TRV.

I thought both his picks were feckups but, in fairness, the ones I had suggested would have left him struggling to get a grip on the game here. Looks fecking beautiful though as a Lippi side.

With this specific game in mind Davids is a miss. Of course, you would pick based on building a side going forward, not one game you may get. But this is probably the best shot MJJ would have had at winning this:

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Baggio and Ronaldo in my opinion are good enough to provide the width though with both drifting wide when needed. Its not a proper subsitute for a winger but given that barca played narrow, I think it will be enough as an outlet pass.

Aye - I suppose one could also argue that Conte, while being no Seedorf in that regard, was also somewhat prone to taking up wide-ish positions.

 

[antohan]

Aye - I suppose one could also argue that Conte, while being no Seedorf in that regard, was also somewhat prone to taking up wide-ish positions.

Indeed. That's somewhat linked to the fundamental problem I had with that backline. With Del Piero already offering options on the left, I thought MJJ could have done with a more defensive option at left FB. Montero would have been ideal for him, be it as LCB or, as he progressed, as a LB option that switched to a defensive three and freeing up Zambrotta or Zanetti out right to provide the width there.

E.g. He could have Montero-Ferrara/Cannavaro-Thuram forming a very strong defensive trio when Zanetti/Zambrotta forages forward playing off Conte all the way down that flank. As it stands though, he has very little out wide bar two fullbacks who probably should stay put, which makes Zambrotta pretty pointless.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Indeed. That's somewhat linked to the fundamental problem I had with that backline. With Del Piero already offering options on the left, I thought MJJ could have done with a more defensive option at left FB. Montero would have been ideal for him, be it as LCB or, as he progressed, as a LB option that switched to a defensive three and freeing up Zambrotta or Zanetti out right to provide the width there.

E.g. He could have Montero-Ferrara/Cannavaro-Thuram forming a very strong defensive trio when Zanetti/Zambrotta forages forward playing off Conte all the way down that flank. As it stands though, he has very little out wide bar two fullbacks who probably should stay put, which makes Zambrotta pretty pointless.

It's a good point - no doubt.

On the flipside one may argue that both Zanetti and even Zambrotta are capable of a bit of defending, while at the same time being more than capable of contributing offensively. With the defensive prowess of the midfield trio as a whole, it isn't unreasonable to claim that you don't need BOTH Zambrotta and Zanetti to remain tucked-in at the back at all times.

There is a possibility there of sending one of them forward on a run or two - and that outlet is all Pirlo needs. Wing play of any kind is something Pep's Barca don't appreciate. But I certainly agree that the obvious choices in terms of the latter (wide options, attacking from wide positions, to put it briefly) are somewhat lacking here for MJJ.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Voted for MJJ - for now.

I'll be back to see how the debate has progressed, though - the Viper is yet to enter the fray, after all.

 

[PedroMendez]

On the flipside one may argue that both Zanetti and even Zambrotta are capable of a bit of defending, while at the same time being more than capable of contributing offensively. With the defensive prowess of the midfield trio as a whole, it isn't unreasonable to claim that you don't need BOTH Zambrotta and Zanetti to remain tucked-in at the back at all times.

fullbacks against barca/Pep dont have to stay put. Barca wasnt using fast transition and allowed most players to go back behind the ball.
People ofter complain, that almost all teams park the bus against high possession tactics, but overlook that this style almost forces the opposition to drop behind the ball with 11 players. There is little reason to stay up front, if I can just jog back, because the opposition allows me to do so. Fullbacks who are defensively solid, but also able to go forward when the own team has possession are great against Barcelona.

 

[antohan]

There is a possibility there of sending one of them forward on a run or two - and that outlet is all Pirlo needs. Wing play of any kind is something Pep's Barca don't appreciate. But I certainly agree that the obvious choices in terms of the latter (wide options, attacking from wide positions, to put it briefly) are somewhat lacking here for MJJ.

Which brings me back to the composition of that back four, it just feels wrong when you fully expect Zambrotta to regularly be charging forward in possession. There's no point in Zambrotta otherwise (whatever bit of defending he can do) but his designated cover is an RCB/RB. No matter how much MJJ rates Ferrara as a better defender than Montero, surely it's close enough to make that element the clincher.

As it is, with no Del Piero (who should be playing IMO), it's probably more important that he joins the attack on that flank but from his first teamsheet I felt both his fullbacks would be better off playing at RB. Is Lippi's leftback pool all that thin? Off the top of my head all I can think of is Pessotto/Torricelli (both right-footed) and Georgatos at Inter (IIRC, total defensive liability). But it only makes Montero more of an obvious pick and, for the first time, I'd agree to see Zanetti at LB.

 

[Isotope]

Thats true. If Lahm is there I'd much rather have Alaba on the left than Abidal, as Alaba is much better in attacking.

Why not start with Del Piero instead of Vieri? I think DP can give you a little bit more flexibility with Baggio there in the attack and Vieri makes it a little bit easier to defend as he is less dynamic.

Agreed. I'd start with del Piero, instead of Vieri, to provide flexible width. And also to have Ronaldo as the focal attack.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

fullbacks against barca/Pep dont have to stay put. Barca wasnt using fast transition and allowed most players to go back behind the ball.
People ofter complain, that almost all teams park the bus against high possession tactics, but overlook that this style almost forces the opposition to drop behind the ball with 11 players. There is little reason to stay up front, if I can just jog back, because the opposition allows me to do so. Fullbacks who are defensively solid, but also able to go forward when the own team has possession are great against Barcelona.

I think it's more on fullbacks who can tuck in to squeeze space. It creates a more compact defense against that attack, esp allowing one of the CB's to step up in case Messi drops deeper. Deep line and less space will be the best counter against someone as mobile as Messi.

 

[MJJ]

This seems like a lost cause, think am losing by eight points with trv yet to appear