LvG and strikers

Rood

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There has been a theme this past season of our strikers getting slagged off for their performances. Clearly none of our strikers have been on top form, but how much of this is down to poor individual play and how much is due to the way LvG wants his striker to play?

From what Ive seen it seems that LvG usually demands his striker to play quite a rigid team role, making very specific runs and often with their back to goal - it is very different to the way strikers were typically deployed by Fergie.
Van Persie recorded a pitiful 12 touches against Arsenal, Rooney also managed an all time low number of passes against City this season - but in fact we won both those games so seems there is some method in the madness!

Ive starting looking into Van Gaal's history with his strikers and it seems he often falls out with his forward players and several seemed unable to adapt to his methods.
Anyone got input about strikers who have played for Van Gaal in the past and done well?
 
He seems to want his strikers to chip in here and there but mostly create space for others and just get on the end of the chances the team creates to finish them. Its probably a big ask for top strikers used to being the centre of everything to be told you may only get 10-20 touches a game but you had better finish the chances you do get.

He liked Kluivert, so we just need to find another version of him. Easy.
 
Rood said:
There has been a theme this past season of our strikers getting slagged off for their performances. Clearly none of our strikers have been on top form, but how much of this is down to poor individual play and how much is due to the way LvG wants his striker to play?

From what Ive seen it seems that LvG usually demands his striker to play quite a rigid team role, making very specific runs and often with their back to goal - it is very different to the way strikers were typically deployed by Fergie.
Van Persie recorded a pitiful 12 touches against Arsenal, Rooney also managed an all time low number of passes against City this season - but in fact we won both those games so seems there is some method in the madness!

Ive starting looking into Van Gaal's history with his strikers and it seems he often falls out with his forward players and several seemed unable to adapt to his methods.
Anyone got input about strikers who have played for Van Gaal in the past and done well?
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Even under Moyes when RvP missed half the season, he still managed to get something like 17 goals. All the strikers struggled last year, not only Rooney, RvP and Falcao, but Hernandez and Welbeck as well. The team is not creating enough chances, taking the easy option of passing the ball around without taking the risks. Not sure if that is how LVG has instructed the team to play or if its down to the players, but no matter who we put up front, they are going to need service, and quality service at that.
 
ghagua said:
Even under Moyes when RvP missed half the season, he still managed to get something like 17 goals. All the strikers struggled last year, not only Rooney, RvP and Falcao, but Hernandez and Welbeck as well. The team is not creating enough chances, taking the easy option of passing the ball around without taking the risks. Not sure if that is how LVG has instructed the team to play or if its down to the players, but no matter who we put up front, they are going to need service, and quality service at that.
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As far as LvG is concerned we do create enough - he commented in several games about how we had enough chances but were not able to convert them, he also mentioned about how Chelsea kill games off with few chances and how we need to be more like that. Plus he made comments about how we lack a 20 goal a season forward so seems pretty clear which area he wants to improve.


11101 said:
He seems to want his strikers to chip in here and there but mostly create space for others and just get on the end of the chances the team creates to finish them. Its probably a big ask for top strikers used to being the centre of everything to be told you may only get 10-20 touches a game but you had better finish the chances you do get.

He liked Kluivert, so we just need to find another version of him. Easy.
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Ye Kluivert comes immediately to mind - played regular for Van Gaal at Ajax, Barca and Holland.

After that Olic was his favourite at Bayern - found some interesting quotes from him:

“I’ve only got very good memories of my time with Louis van Gaal,” Ivica Olić told TheScore.ie.

“We both came to Munich at the same time and, with his methods, I had my best season with Bayern in 2010. Under van Gaal, I was even able to keep Luca Toni, Mario Gómez, and Miroslav Klose out of the team. It was a great year: we made the Champions League final in just our first year together.

“Van Gaal demands discipline, but he also talked and joked a lot with us and was a funny guy. Discipline was his first requirement and his second order was that, every day, we gave our maximum effort. If we trained badly, he was so upset if we then went on to lose the game. He wanted every day of training treated as if it was the last one – with only maximum effort accepted.

“Every day, we trained with the ball in a typically Dutch way with lots of passing exercises. There was no training without the ball. At first, we did not understand van Gaal’s system and it was difficult for all of us. It was all so new to us. Before his arrival, Bayern always played with a 4-4-2 and he brought something different. He wanted the ball played with a fast tempo, focusing our play through the flanks. It took us three or four months to adjust and implement his ideas. After that, we had a lot of success and won titles.”​
 
Van Persie definitely suffered because of the system we played and our lack of creativity. We'll need someone with extreme precision in order to thrive in a system where the priority is to wear the opposition down than to take risks and create goal scoring opportunities.

I do not know who is this striker.
 
van Gaal sets up the team so that his creative players have the most space to create chances and destroy the opposition defences, whether they be wingers, #10's, or one of the two box-to-box midfielders. He sets up his strikers so that they pull the opposition defences away from the creative players and put themselves into goalscoring positions. What he wants from his striker is to occupy the minds of the central defenders so that the wingers and midfielder(s) can do the damage.

I don't believe he wants his strikers to drop back and search for the ball. He doesn't want strikers who will want to seek out the ball and be involved. The only time he'd be fine with that is if we have a total football setup where, if a striker goes back, we'd have someone else go up to occupy the central defenders. However, as we've seen with most teams' players nowadays, the strikers drift around freely whilst their teammates don't really take up the striker spot to occupy the defenders. As a result, someone like Welbeck, Benzema, Ibrahimovic, or Lewandowski won't be the most suited for this role. This is also the reason van Gaal wanted to play Rivaldo out wide for Barcelona rather than up front. This is also why he played Olic up front for the first season and Gomez soon after once Gomez adjusted to van Gaal's approach.

Not only this, but he wants strikers who are clinical and can score goals. He's often talked about strikers needing to take chances and score lots of goals, so he doesn't just want Olic-like strikers to play up front. I think this was a reason why he took Falcao on loan: he was a goalscoring machine before he got injured, and the reason he also played van Persie regularly is because van Persie was a consistent goalscorer (though he was prone to missing key chances often).

Ironically, the striker who most suits this role is Chicharito given the qualities he possesses. He always occupies defences with his movement, creating spaces for the creative players, and he's also a clinical goalscorer. Unfortunately, he didn't do well enough in the first few matches of our season, prompting van Gaal to put him behind Rooney, van Persie, and Falcao. Wilson is another who's very good for this role, but he has to mature before he can really establish himself. Henriquez could also be good in this role as he's a buzzing player who loves to make runs and occupy defenders. van Persie doesn't really suit such a role as he loves to drift around and seek the ball, but he changed his game for van Gaal and not necessarily for the best. Falcao also ideally suited our setup, but his sloppiness on the ball and in his finishing meant that he wasn't effective enough for us. The Rooney of 09/10 would have been the ideal striker for us, but the Rooney of now is much better off playing behind/alongside a van-Gaal striker.
 
Rood said:
As far as LvG is concerned we do create enough - he commented in several games about how we had enough chances but were not able to convert them, he also mentioned about how Chelsea kill games off with few chances and how we need to be more like that. Plus he made comments about how we lack a 20 goal a season forward so seems pretty clear which area he wants to improve.
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Obviously i'm no expert, i call it as i see it. Team created shite for most of the season, reason for the struggle by all the strikers. By chances, i mean quality chances. Against Southampton at home, the team failed to strike on target even once, first time since OPTA started keeping these stats. As for Chelsea, they only sat back against us in their home match, otherwise they create plenty of chances for their strikers.
 
Insanity said:
Van Persie definitely suffered because of the system we played and our lack of creativity. We'll need someone with extreme precision in order to thrive in a system where the priority is to wear the opposition down than to take risks and create goal scoring opportunities.

I do not know who is this striker.
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Harry Kane is a striker who I think would thrive as a van Gaal striker.

Also Benteke would do well under van Gaal.
 
He's said that he likes his forwards to do more than score goals . Then he says he misses a striker that scores goals. Not sure what he wants.
 
Rood said:
As far as LvG is concerned we do create enough - he commented in several games about how we had enough chances but were not able to convert them, he also mentioned about how Chelsea kill games off with few chances and how we need to be more like that. Plus he made comments about how we lack a 20 goal a season forward so seems pretty clear which area he wants to improve.




Ye Kluivert comes immediately to mind - played regular for Van Gaal at Ajax, Barca and Holland.

After that Olic was his favourite at Bayern - found some interesting quotes from him:

“I’ve only got very good memories of my time with Louis van Gaal,” Ivica Olić told TheScore.ie.

“We both came to Munich at the same time and, with his methods, I had my best season with Bayern in 2010. Under van Gaal, I was even able to keep Luca Toni, Mario Gómez, and Miroslav Klose out of the team. It was a great year: we made the Champions League final in just our first year together.

“Van Gaal demands discipline, but he also talked and joked a lot with us and was a funny guy. Discipline was his first requirement and his second order was that, every day, we gave our maximum effort. If we trained badly, he was so upset if we then went on to lose the game. He wanted every day of training treated as if it was the last one – with only maximum effort accepted.

“Every day, we trained with the ball in a typically Dutch way with lots of passing exercises. There was no training without the ball. At first, we did not understand van Gaal’s system and it was difficult for all of us. It was all so new to us. Before his arrival, Bayern always played with a 4-4-2 and he brought something different. He wanted the ball played with a fast tempo, focusing our play through the flanks. It took us three or four months to adjust and implement his ideas. After that, we had a lot of success and won titles.”​
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Olic scored 11goals in 29 league games that season... I think a striker at United with a similar return would get slaughtered on here
 
This doesn't seem to be a striker friendly system at all, I doubt there is a striker that we could buy that can score 20 goals in this 4-3-3 system we're using at the moment. Looks like the striker's main job is to make space for others, not to get involved in the game. Which is funny, because LVG seems to always complain that the strikers don't score enough.
 
ottosec said:
This doesn't seem to be a striker friendly system at all, I doubt there is a striker that we could buy that can score 20 goals in this 4-3-3 system we're using at the moment. Looks like the striker's main job is to make space for others, not to get involved in the game. Which is funny, because LVG seems to always complain that the strikers don't score enough.
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I don't think that it's impossible to score a lot of goals in that system, but I also think that it is hard for established strikers to adapt because they have tendencies that don't suit the system. Van gaal is a coach for young strikers, because he can teach them what he wants without having to erase their old habits.
 
ottosec said:
This doesn't seem to be a striker friendly system at all, I doubt there is a striker that we could buy that can score 20 goals in this 4-3-3 system we're using at the moment. Looks like the striker's main job is to make space for others, not to get involved in the game. Which is funny, because LVG seems to always complain that the strikers don't score enough.
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LVG his 433 is a very hard formation for a striker to prosper in. You have to be a worldbeater and to be a great all-round footballer. You have to be able, to hold the play up, be fast, strong, find space, score by head and foot. To give an example, Ajax played somewhat the same formation with the ball possession and 'dominating' style. The only strikers that left through the front door and did not horribly drown in the past decade are Suarez, Ibrahimovic and Huntelaar. On top of that this is the Eredivisie we are talking about (although back in the days it was stronger), and only those kind of players could survive as a striker in such a formation. You have to be extremely good to pull it off, especially here in the PL. There is a reason why Messi was played as a striker or why Fabregas was played as a striker at Barcelona, because your footballing capabilities (not scoring per se) have to be great.
 
sun_tzu said:
Olic scored 11goals in 29 league games that season... I think a striker at United with a similar return would get slaughtered on here
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Olic was a tireless worker though - I think if our strikers put the same type of shift in that he did, LVG at least would be more than happy.
 
imperi said:
LVG his 433 is a very hard formation for a striker to prosper in. You have to be a worldbeater and to be a great all-round footballer. You have to be able, to hold the play up, be fast, strong, find space, score by head and foot. To give an example, Ajax played somewhat the same formation with the ball possession and 'dominating' style. The only strikers that left through the front door and did not horribly drown in the past decade are Suarez, Ibrahimovic and Huntelaar. On top of that this is the Eredivisie we are talking about (although back in the days it was stronger), and only those kind of players could survive as a striker in such a formation. You have to be extremely good to pull it off, especially here in the PL. There is a reason why Messi was played as a striker or why Fabregas was played as a striker at Barcelona, because your footballing capabilities (not scoring per se) have to be great.
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It didn't look like our striker needs any kind of hold up play or that LVG wants him involved in the game. He told Rooney that the perfect striker performance was one where the striker had 10 touches all game...

I'm not sure, but most likely he wants them to run around and drag defenders to make space for the wingers or midfielders?

Maybe this is because of the players that play behind the striker, our midfielders and wingers seem to like getting forward a lot, so maybe he just adapted the striker role to serve those players better.

With more creative players behind maybe the striker's role would be different, but it doesn't look like we're heading in that direction, considering that we signed a winger that is a goal scorer, not really a creator(Memphis) and he will probably replace our winger that is more of a creator than a goalscorer in team(Young).
 
sun_tzu said:
Rooney typically does and he still gets slaughtered in here
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Olic did a lot more than Rooney, though. And people are very critical when it comes to Rooney.
 
Rood said:
There has been a theme this past season of our strikers getting slagged off for their performances. Clearly none of our strikers have been on top form, but how much of this is down to poor individual play and how much is due to the way LvG wants his striker to play?

From what Ive seen it seems that LvG usually demands his striker to play quite a rigid team role, making very specific runs and often with their back to goal - it is very different to the way strikers were typically deployed by Fergie.
Van Persie recorded a pitiful 12 touches against Arsenal, Rooney also managed an all time low number of passes against City this season - but in fact we won both those games so seems there is some method in the madness!
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That win at Arsenal win was down to De Gea bailing us out and a few good counter attack moments as Arsenal needlessly piled forward, we were lucky to win that. I seem to remember van Persie didn't actually play as a centre forward that game though, he was out on the right side with Di Maria on the left and Rooney in a deeper central role whereas Rooney was the main striker vs. City at home.

Ive starting looking into Van Gaal's history with his strikers and it seems he often falls out with his forward players and several seemed unable to adapt to his methods.
Anyone got input about strikers who have played for Van Gaal in the past and done well?
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van Persie went into the World Cup as top scorer in the European zone as I mentioned to you the other night. His overall record with van Gaal as manager of the national team between 2012 and 2014 is 18 goals in 23 matches. What he needs pace around him with people prepared to make runs to support him from midfield I think to make his hold up work otherwise the tempo just doesn't suit his style. He can occasionally style pull off a piece of magic to get us a goal but he needs more help these days to score.
 
JPRouve said:
Olic did a lot more than Rooney, though. And people are very critical when it comes to Rooney.
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True - I think they would be equally critical of any striker asked to play that role for us though.

Personally I grew up watching Hughes bully defenders and make the space for Cantona / Kancheslkis / Giggs and I respect that type of play - but would most fans put up with a striker who averaged less than 12 league goals a season (indeed only scored 15 once in his entire time under SAF)?

I'm not sure they would - perhaps its being spoiled by players like Nistelrooy and Van Persi, or its casting an envious eye to the scoring exploits of Aguero but there seems to be an expectation that our striker needs to be scoring 20 league goals a season to be considered a success and whoever plays up top will quite possibly struggle to do that in our current system and thus be slaughtered - be that Rooney or anybody else.
 
JUPITER said:
Harry Kane is a striker who I think would thrive as a van Gaal striker.

Also Benteke would do well under van Gaal.
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A couple cloggers? Sounds good.
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Our strikers were awful this season but the fact that there is figures there with the likes of RvP and Rooney only getting those small amount of touches is proof that our attacking play was awful for the most part of last year. When they [strikers] got the ball, they did feck all with it, fair. But there were so many games where they weren't even getting the ball played into them for large portions of the matches. The strikers need some tinkering, but the creativity around them needs to improve. People can name drop out midfielders' ability all they please but they were just at fault at times this year.
 
sun_tzu said:
Rooney typically does and he still gets slaughtered in here
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He does work hard I agree - but he's always working hard in the midfield whereas Olic worked hard running the channels, down the wings etc. It was I would say work more suited to the role of a striker whereas Rooney tends to play a striker/CM role thus removing him a little from the forward line too much (for my liking).
 
ottosec said:
This doesn't seem to be a striker friendly system at all, I doubt there is a striker that we could buy that can score 20 goals in this 4-3-3 system we're using at the moment. Looks like the striker's main job is to make space for others, not to get involved in the game. Which is funny, because LVG seems to always complain that the strikers don't score enough.
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Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too. They get very little of the ball, almost banished from dropping deep most times and are scolded for not scoring enough. Unless you're Messi/Suarez/Aguero who can do basically everything on their own in the final third, you really won't have that much success in our current system.
 
Dans said:
He does work hard I agree - but he's always working hard in the midfield whereas Olic worked hard running the channels, down the wings etc. It was I would say work more suited to the role of a striker whereas Rooney tends to play a striker/CM role thus removing him a little from the forward line too much (for my liking).
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Rooney played a few games up top on his own, and worked hard causing problems for defenders. Look at the City game for example.

Problem is, if he doesn't touch the ball much, he'll get slaughtered.
 
sun_tzu said:
True - I think they would be equally critical of any striker asked to play that role for us though.

Personally I grew up watching Hughes bully defenders and make the space for Cantona / Kancheslkis / Giggs and I respect that type of play - but would most fans put up with a striker who averaged less than 12 league goals a season (indeed only scored 15 once in his entire time under SAF)?

I'm not sure they would - perhaps its being spoiled by players like Nistelrooy and Van Persi, or its casting an envious eye to the scoring exploits of Aguero but there seems to be an expectation that our striker needs to be scoring 20 league goals a season to be considered a success and whoever plays up top will quite possibly struggle to do that in our current system and thus be slaughtered - be that Rooney or anybody else.
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It's a little bit condescending but people shouldn't focus so much on Barcelona, I believe that they are the reason why people seem so spoilt. Football fans are being more and more shallow and don't respect the grafters anymore, personally I love players like Mandzukic, Olic, Diego Costa or Fellaini, these players when used in the right context are crucial and they have a feisty character.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too. They get very little of the ball, almost banished from dropping deep most times and are scolded for not scoring enough. Unless you're Messi/Suarez/Aguero who can do basically everything on their own in the final third, you really won't have that much success in our current system.
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The problem is that LVG doesn't like striker to dribble either, how would they create chances for themselves if they are not allowed to hold up the ball or dribble? It's a really weird system, I guess he knows best.
 
Worth giving Hernandez a go, than spending big big money on Benzema, Cavani, Benteke or Kane, if they are going to be players who aren't really all that involved. Hernandez's movement on the last defender is very good, he pulls defenders all over the place with his runs and changes of direction. He doesn't look to drop off and get involved. His hold-up play is limited, but he's capable of receiving a pass and playing it laterally before making a run again.

He can either scuff one in himself, or make space for Depay, Mata, Rooney, Firmino*, Bale*, Schweinsteiger* or Pogba* to lash in.


*Will be bought with the money not used on buying a striker, obvs.
 
ottosec said:
The problem is that LVG doesn't like striker to dribble either, how would they create chances for themselves if they are not allowed to hold up the ball or dribble? It's a really weird system, I guess he knows best.
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From what I read, LVG allows you to do everything even something that he forbidden you to do, but you better succeed because in his mind you are responsible for your actions, and you better have a solid explanation.
 
Dans said:
He does work hard I agree - but he's always working hard in the midfield whereas Olic worked hard running the channels, down the wings etc. It was I would say work more suited to the role of a striker whereas Rooney tends to play a striker/CM role thus removing him a little from the forward line too much (for my liking).
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Possibly - though when you have a player with rooneys passing ability and vision there is a strong argument for wanting him on the ball more.
I hope LVG gets a striker more suited to his vision of a No9 and lets Rooney be that No10 who can operate between the front and midfield - I still maintain though that whoever than no9 is will probably get slaughtered on here if he is not scoring around one every other game regardless of the other work he is doing and regardless of if its truly justified or not
 
sun_tzu said:
Possibly - though when you have a player with rooneys passing ability and vision there is a strong argument for wanting him on the ball more.
I hope LVG gets a striker more suited to his vision of a No9 and lets Rooney be that No10 who can operate between the front and midfield - I still maintain though that whoever than no9 is will probably get slaughtered on here if he is not scoring around one every other game regardless of the other work he is doing and regardless of if its truly justified or not
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Interesting - I have never felt passing is a strong point of Rooney's. He too often tries (and often fails) to spray balls Scholes style around the park, for me, slowing play down. His work, for me is the getting stuck in - winning the ball back, like a DM. On the ball, I don't think Rooney is good enough to be dropping into midfield so much and I think it's only because we miss something in midfield in recent years that Rooney has been playing the engine role. Hopefully Herrera can take this on leaving Rooney to stay up front.
 
JPRouve said:
From what I read, LVG allows you to do everything even something that he forbidden you to do, but you better succeed because in his mind you are responsible for your actions, and you better have a solid explanation.
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Hmm, yeah I sort of see where you're going with that - reminds of Ander being told to take a touch and then shoot, but he then scored by taking it first time, and then said 'see boss, I can do it like that too!' If it comes off great, if it doesn't, be prepared to feel LvG's wrath.
 
You'd think if he likes his strikers to be strikers i.e not too many touches outside of box and in unnecessary areas, then Hernandez would be his perfect player!
 
There's been a lot of criticism on our forwards' form this season but imo if we choose to focus solely on them, we simply extenuate the difficulties we had in creating chances and opening up tight defenses all season. We can discuss all day if Rooney and RvP are past it or if LvG's tactics demand of the strikers to perform specific tasks on the pitch and therefore limit their creativity... and we can come to the 'conclusion' that we should keep Hernandez in the first team and kick both Rooney and RvP out the club.

The truth is that we only watched glimpses of how a proper van Gaal team plays on the pitch. I'm not talking about the formations and the increased possession stats, which have often been laughed at on this forum, i'm talking about the way he likes to set his teams in order to create spaces in the final third. Every good LvG side, when in possession, aims to create space in between the opposition lines by stretching their back four line and creating isolation opportunities for the three creative players behind the forward to play 1v1 against their markers.

That doesn't mean that he just needs a poacher up front to harass the opposition CBs. This is just the first part of the job the forward has to do. He has to be able to communicate well with his teammates, especially the wide players and the man behind him, and create pockets of space for them. Players like Hernandez or Falcao make the runs, attack the channels but 9/10 times the do it to create chances just for themselves. Of course Luis wants to get goals from his forwards but not only tap ins, he wants attacking players who can beat their defenders and score goals.

Someone mentioned Kluivert, he is a fine example. He could play with his back on goal, he could beat defenders in the air and he was good with ball at his feet. But was he the main threat in that Ajax side? No, but he had developed and excellent understanding with Litmanen who was playing in the hole. Plus that Ajax team was working very hard to create 1v1 situations for Overmars and George on the wings and they also had R. de Boer who could make deep runs in the box.

You can also take a look at his 2010 Bayern side. His top goal scorers where Robben (inside forward) and Muller (behind the forward). And some of Olic's goals came from wide positions. This is the infamous "philosophy" and this is the way LvG has been earning his living in the last 25 years.

We can see that, according to the transfer rumors, we are going after wingers who can play as inside forwards and provide goals and assists. LvG was absolutely right to reward Young for his performances this season but players like Young (players who like to hug the touch line and put blind crosses in the box) rarely suit his plans. In his preferred 4-2-3-1 he wants the three players behind the forward to deliver the goods simply because the whole attacking plan is to create spaces for them to do so.

The second big problem we had this season was our FBs/WBs' inability to create chances and trouble the opposition defenses. We saw numerous times that our opponents chose to defend in a very narrow and compact shape by using double-teams against our wingers because they expected no threats from the FBs. This is also something LvG has to deal with.

I believe that if we get another top class winger, a RB with creative skills and a defensive minded b2b midfielder who will liberate Herrera, we'll be fine with Rooney up front. Although i agree that Rooney's natural position is behind the forward, like Litmanen at Ajax and Muller at Bayern Munich. But imo a midfield of Carrick (at 34) and Herrera can't support this tactic.
 
Sounds like the perfect LVG striker is like a Fellaini that can bust a gut. Fast enough to prompt defences to retreat deeper and afford more space in the middle of the pitch. Not so great in technique that they'd enjoy being in possession of the ball (quick to offload and make selfless runs instead). Tall and attack-minded enough that they only make a few, crucial touches in the final moments of the final third. Strong enough to shield and hold the ball when the team needs to work their way up.
 
IwatUwat said:
You'd think if he likes his strikers to be strikers i.e not too many touches outside of box and in unnecessary areas, then Hernandez would be his perfect player!
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Not at all, the striker needs to be powerful and able to make life difficult for the two centrebacks.
 
He's had/got all the time he needs to buy his striker. I'm intrigued to find out how we play next season after he tailors his own team.
 
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