Joshua Zirkzee (Out)

Rojofiam said:
If there's any truth to this, it should be an obligation with Juventus paying his full salary as well. The fee should also be around what we paid for him. There's no release clause this time and he would've cost considerably more last summer without that.

Juve would also know exactly what they're getting with Zirkzee, know how his game translates into the Serie A, and their new manager is the one who's got the most out of the player so far in his career.
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Why? He failed to meet expectation, even for the "low price" paid. Plus, you want to sell.

Also, Juve have no money, if they are interested, it probably to make opportunity to sign value, my guess a loan with no obligation, they then try to push down price if player settles at Turin and player want to stay.

Your only chance to get back good money is for bidding war between 2 teams with money. If Milan, Inter bid with Napoli, it possible, but I don't think they need/interest in Zirkzee.
C'est Moi Cantona said:
It'll be a wage saving, but there won't be any funds, it will be a loss on the books.
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I think so, and will not be too bad for how poorly JZ play at United.
 
£36.5m for him was a fair price. That amount of money in the 2024/25 market is fairly modest. It hasn’t worked sadly as he does have some skills and ability but it feels like he’s missing that physicality and quickness in terms of decision making to be good in a Premier League setting. I can see why Italy is perfect for him.

I feel bad about writing him off after 5 months but if we can sell him and come close to break even, then it’s decent business. Persisting with it and trying to make it work will look worse.
 
Judas said:
I don’t believe it, but what a truly awful bit of business if he is getting binned off that quickly. Impressively disastrous.
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Hojlund and Anthony are disastrous and atrocious pieces of business.

If United sign a player (Serie A's young player of the year) and he struggles in half the opening season, being sold back to the league environment where he thrived is a best case scenario in a short period of time. It's two of the Italian leagues most prolific teams that are rumoured to be interested in his services.

He's cost the club 35 million, even if United receive a bid in the region of 30 or break even, it's decent business because the fee he was acquired for wasn't overinflated. It's one of the reasons why Dan James has been one of the clubs best signings despite the club signing more talented players, his low book fee protected the club against future market value and it's reminiscent with Zirkzee especially in a striker's / centre forwards market.
 
Bello Giacomo said:
Why? He failed to meet expectation, even for the "low price" paid. Plus, you want to sell.

Also, Juve have no money, if they are interested, it probably to make opportunity to sign value, my guess a loan with no obligation, they then try to push down price if player settles at Turin and player want to stay.

Your only chance to get back good money is for bidding war between 2 teams with money. If Milan, Inter bid with Napoli, it possible, but I don't think they need/interest in Zirkzee.

I think so, and will not be too bad for how poorly JZ play at United.
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-"He failed to meet expectations" Did he? United knew exactly the kind of player they were getting, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and how he's not about the numbers that are far from elite at this stage of his career.

"You want to sell" You don't know that. There haven't been any reliable reports about Zirkzee leaving so far, from the best sources that usually break things. It's been just tabloids claiming Juve's interest, basically.

Also, if he didn't have a low release clause at Bologna, I think we all know they would've set at least a €50m price tag for Zirkzee, possibly even a bit higher. There's no release clause now. A few months of games where he couldn't play his own game due to the dysfunctional environment he found himself in at United, won't lower his price massively.
 
MadDogg said:
If we were going all-in on Rashford and Garnacho playing as our inverted wingers, a false nine to bring them into play isn't necessarily a bad idea. Having those two and Hojlund was always a badly balanced attack as you generally need at least one of the three to be a bit more of a creator. I'm guessing that was the thinking on his signing.

Zirkzee didn't really work in the early days in that style, and now we've changed system to something that really doesn't suit him at all.
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We've only played a handful of times last season with Bruno as a false nine, and every time it looked like a terrible idea. The 9.5 and 10 would just get in the way of each other. In fact, the only player I've ever seen clever enough to do the false nine consistently at a high level is of course Leo Messi, and let's just say that Zirkzee is not Messi.
 
Rojofiam said:
-"He failed to meet expectations" Did he? United knew exactly the kind of player they were getting, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and how he's not about the numbers that are far from elite at this stage of his career.

"You want to sell" You don't know that. There haven't been any reliable reports about Zirkzee leaving so far, from the best sources that usually break things. It's been just tabloids claiming Juve's interest, basically.

Also, if he didn't have a low release clause at Bologna, I think we all know they would've set at least a €50m price tag for Zirkzee, possibly even a bit higher. There's no release clause now. A few months of games where he couldn't play his own game due to the dysfunctional environment he found himself in at United, won't lower his price massively.
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No? I'm sure this exactly what INEOS and Amorim were hoping from him. Clearly he has place in the hearts of fans already

Is true, I don't know Utd want to sell. Only the manager/board or time will be able to tell us. We wait...
 
There are glimpses with Zirkzee of skill and cleverness which make you think for a second about re-evaluating him as a player, but thin his passing is more hit and miss than Bruno's, he has the acceleration and manoeuvrability of a double decker bus, despite being mahoosive he is useless in the air and too often pushed off the ball.

Maybe there is a good player in there, but seems like the premier league in terms of pace and physicality are just a bad fit, maybe if he spends the next 12 months in the gym and on the track he may improve but it will be a slow journey.

Being here is clearly not doing him any favours, I felt sorry for him being subbed off and booed the other day, but then again he was absolutely, shockingly bad, if we can get him on loan back to Italy for maybe a small fee + his wages, then he can potentially improve his saleability for the summer, but he is not what this team needs at all
 
Given our lack of goals last season (and 22/23 wasn’t much better either) Zirkzee was probably wrong signing as he’s a young-ish player who is not exactly a striker and is having to adapt coming from a slower league. Add Hojlund being 21 and only scoring at times and we’ve got a serious problem in attack.

If Zirkzee is to leave on loan this month it’s great news as we’ll surely try to get a striker.
 
spiriticon said:
We've only played a handful of times last season with Bruno as a false nine, and every time it looked like a terrible idea. The 9.5 and 10 would just get in the way of each other. In fact, the only player I've ever seen clever enough to do the false nine consistently at a high level is of course Leo Messi, and let's just say that Zirkzee is not Messi.
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Bruno is terribly suited to a false nine so I wouldn't take anything from that experiment (although I don't really remember it to be honest). That player still needs good hold-up play and physicality (which Bruno hasn't got whatsoever) and ability to play largely up top while drifting around and dropping deep at the right times to create space for the other attackers. What I'm talking about is more like how Firmino played while having Salah and Mane coming off the wings, or indeed how Rooney would sometimes play for us.

Messi did it in his own unique way, but....well, it's Messi.
 
Chairman Steve said:
£36.5m for him was a fair price. That amount of money in the 2024/25 market is fairly modest. It hasn’t worked sadly as he does have some skills and ability but it feels like he’s missing that physicality and quickness in terms of decision making to be good in a Premier League setting. I can see why Italy is perfect for him.

I feel bad about writing him off after 5 months but if we can sell him and come close to break even, then it’s decent business. Persisting with it and trying to make it work will look worse.
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For 11 goals and 4 assists in one season in a top league thats a big price.

Its a lot less than Hojlund who was younger and more hyped up and who we had chosen over most other strikers with that fee. But its £6.5 million more than Jackson, who scored 12 goals and 4 assists in just 16 starts for Villarreal and who has 9 goals and successfully leading the line for Chelsea. We both overpaid and got it wrong on the player.
 
Bello Giacomo said:
No? I'm sure this exactly what INEOS and Amorim were hoping from him. Clearly he has place in the hearts of fans already

Is true, I don't know Utd want to sell. Only the manager/board or time will be able to tell us. We wait...
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He was signed when we were playing a different system, and we've been an awful team during his time here anyways, except for a few games. Is it coincidental that those are mostly the games Zirkzee has done well in, too? Also, Ten Hag misused him as a target man, and his place now is questionable in Amorim's system.

Regarding what I said about the team being awful: Don't underestimate how important the the environment is for a player and for the team to be collectively well-drilled with the tactical system working well too, in order for any player to be able to perform to their best levels. It's the most important thing for a player, basically.

See Chelsea in the last two seasons compared to now. How many underperformers they had that are now doing well for the same club, but in a different system under a different manager?

Ekeke said:
For 11 goals and 4 assists in one season in a top league thats a big price.

Its a lot less than Hojlund who was younger and more hyped up and who we had chosen over most other strikers with that fee. But its £6.5 million more than Jackson, who scored 12 goals and 4 assists in just 16 starts for Villarreal and who has 9 goals and successfully leading the line for Chelsea. We both overpaid and got it wrong on the player.
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You think the only thing clubs look at are the number of starts and goal contributions?
 
Rojofiam said:
He was signed when we were playing a different system, and we've been an awful team during his time here anyways, except for a few games. Is it coincidental that those are mostly the games Zirkzee has done well in, too? Also, Ten Hag misused him as a target man, and his place now is questionable in Amorim's system.

Regarding what I said about the team being awful: Don't underestimate how important the the environment is for a player and for the team to be collectively well-drilled with the tactical system working well too, in order for any player to be able to perform to their best levels. It's the most important thing for a player, basically.

See Chelsea in the last two seasons compared to now. How many underperformers they had that are now doing well for the same club, but in a different system under a different manager?



You think the only thing clubs look at are the number of starts and goal contributions?
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For a striker? If we dont, it would explain why we have 78 league goals in the past 1.5 seasons, 21 this season which is 15th most in the premier league this season. 1 of the teams in the relegation places has 1 more goal than us and Wolves just outside the relegation places have 10 more than us

Yes looking at goals is the exact thing you should do with a striker.
 
Ekeke said:
For a striker? If we dont, it would explain why we have 78 league goals in the past 1.5 seasons, 21 this season which is 15th most in the premier league this season. 1 of the teams in the relegation places has 1 more goal than us and Wolves just outside the relegation places have 10 more than us

Yes looking at goals is the exact thing you should do with a striker.
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So what's stopping anyone from becoming a professional scout for a top club? Just open Transfermarkt, look at the stats, and that's it?
 
Rojofiam said:
So what's stopping anyone from becoming a professional scout for a top club? Just open Transfermarkt, look at the stats, and that's it?
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They will acquire their own stats and have access to more professional data than Transfermarkt. But rest assured they are fed stats, do keep their own and a striker's goalscoring will be a priority. They still get it wrong a lot. For there to be good scouts there must also be bad ones. And for there to be scouts finding gems for small cost, there must also be scouts suggesting expensive players that are duds.
 
Remember the geese said:
You say that but if Liverpool had signed him he would have no doubt fit like a glove. Always the way.
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Environment plays a huge part. I remember years back when we signed Ashley Young, he fit in seamlessly and even scored on his debut. Liverpool signed Stewart downing the same summer and flopped. I remember Liverpool fans saying that if you swapped the two transfers, Downing would’ve done well at United and Young would’ve flopped at Liverpool.

It can’t just be the players at this point. Personal responsibility can’t be ignored of course, but providing a fertile ground for players to succeed is definitely a huge part of why a transfer flops or not. It can’t be a coincidence that in 12 years we’ve only had 2 transfers (Zlatan* and Bruno) be a success compared to dozens of shit ones.

*Should also be said that Zlatan had such a strong mentality and aura about him that he essentially changed the environment himself just by stepping into it. Look at what happened to the dressing room once he left.
 
2 man midfield said:
Environment plays a huge part. I remember years back when we signed Ashley Young, he fit in seamlessly and even scored on his debut. Liverpool signed Stewart downing the same summer and flopped. I remember Liverpool fans saying that if you swapped the two transfers, Downing would’ve done well at United and Young would’ve flopped at Liverpool.

It can’t just be the players at this point. Personal responsibility can’t be ignored of course, but providing a fertile ground for players to succeed is definitely a huge part of why a transfer flops or not. It can’t be a coincidence that in 12 years we’ve only had 2 transfers (Zlatan* and Bruno) be a success compared to dozens of shit ones.

*Should also be said that Zlatan had such a strong mentality and aura about him that he essentially changed the environment himself just by stepping into it. Look at what happened to the dressing room once he left.
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You're completely right but the "environment" always gets dismissed as some sort of excuse on here whenever I bring it up.
 
Ekeke said:
They will acquire their own stats and have access to more professional data than Transfermarkt. But rest assured they are fed stats, do keep their own and a striker's goalscoring will be a priority. They still get it wrong a lot. For there to be good scouts there must also be bad ones. And for there to be scouts finding gems for small cost, there must also be scouts suggesting expensive players that are duds.
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So appearances and G/A are clearly not just what they look at. Clearly, both Hojlund and Zirkzee weren't signed because of their stats.
 
Zed 101 said:
There are glimpses with Zirkzee of skill and cleverness which make you think for a second about re-evaluating him as a player, but thin his passing is more hit and miss than Bruno's, he has the acceleration and manoeuvrability of a double decker bus, despite being mahoosive he is useless in the air and too often pushed off the ball.

Maybe there is a good player in there, but seems like the premier league in terms of pace and physicality are just a bad fit, maybe if he spends the next 12 months in the gym and on the track he may improve but it will be a slow journey.

Being here is clearly not doing him any favours, I felt sorry for him being subbed off and booed the other day, but then again he was absolutely, shockingly bad, if we can get him on loan back to Italy for maybe a small fee + his wages, then he can potentially improve his saleability for the summer, but he is not what this team needs at all
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Good post
 
Rojofiam said:
You're completely right but the "environment" always gets dismissed as some sort of excuse on here whenever I bring it up.
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It’s why I can’t really blame Zirkzee or our scouts too much. Yes Zirkzee is the one misplacing 5 yard passes, but he was by all accounts brilliant for Bologna and Serie A young player of the year. Why wouldn’t we sign a player like that with a low release clause? If he’d have gone to the scousers this summer and been their new Firmino you’d have people asking why we couldn’t do such a shrewd piece of business.
 
2 man midfield said:
It’s why I can’t really blame Zirkzee or our scouts too much. Yes Zirkzee is the one misplacing 5 yard passes, but he was by all accounts brilliant for Bologna and Serie A young player of the year. Why wouldn’t we sign a player like that with a low release clause? If he’d have gone to the scousers this summer and been their new Firmino you’d have people asking why we couldn’t do such a shrewd piece of business.
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I completely agree again. People see a new player at a rival club doing well, and assume that's how he would be able to play at United as well. They also think a new signing not doing well for us would be shit for every other team too.
 
Ekeke said:
They were, just more than goals. Unfortunately thats been a blunder
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With both there was a degree of signing for potential which is the model you want to move towards. The issue we have is that we spent big money for potential and did not address the immediate needs of the team. This screws us two ways as we still have the holes to fill in the team and the development of the young players we sign gets stunted because we expect too much straight away and then pile on them when they fail. The lack of a clear strategy and long term planning goes a long way to explaining why we have become a club where promising careers go to die.
 
2 man midfield said:
It’s why I can’t really blame Zirkzee or our scouts too much. Yes Zirkzee is the one misplacing 5 yard passes, but he was by all accounts brilliant for Bologna and Serie A young player of the year. Why wouldn’t we sign a player like that with a low release clause? If he’d have gone to the scousers this summer and been their new Firmino you’d have people asking why we couldn’t do such a shrewd piece of business.
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Its their job to get it right. They live and die by the sword like any consultant. They would need to judge whether this player doing quite well in Italian football can play in the premier league and adjust to the lifestyle off the field. Its not something we can look into, we cant talk to the players agent and people associated with him, but its their job to make a reccommendation based on these factors.

He wasn't playing with 33.3% pass accuracy in Serie A, I know that much. And unfortunately getting a few goals hasnt given him confidence and made him look like a player. Sometimes it does for a striker, but he has scored a couple of goals and then hes been the same after.
 
Bastian said:
Ashworth was sacked in a loss-making exercise months into his job.
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He isn't a player. So his literally of zero relevance to this matter. You lose an Ashworth you easily replace him with another. You make a quick loss on a player quickly it cuts into your money to get any replacements. Leaving you a player less, unable to strengthen, with money lost.
 
TrickyLeftWinger said:
Hard to believe walking around so slowly would even work in Italy?
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Exactly, I do wonder whether he is just unable to deal with the pressure or something else.

He was YPOTY there wasn't he? Surely he achieved that by doing more than he's attempted here. Despite the way people talk about Serie A, it's not exactly vets football or league 1 level...who knows?

It would be good to get insight into why players like Forlan and Salah at Chelsea, etc. didn't perform to the level they were capable, it's not as simple as "this league" as Salah showed when he came back and destroyed the league worse than he'd done in Serie A after being a bit of a flop before.
 
Good on the club for recognising their mistake and trying to move him on while he still has some resale value. Under Woodward we'd have given him 3 years to try and realise his potential along with a contract extension to protect his market value.
 
Surely some Italian clubs are willing to sign him? If I'm not wrong he was Serie A player of the season or something.
 
Feel bad for him but if the new manager doesn't want him it's best to sell him on ASAP.
 
I don’t think there has been a worse signing than Zirkzee. Ashworth really dropped the ball on this one, which is why he no longer has a job.
 
Whenever I see him play I think to myself that being a scout for ManUtd should be the easiest job on earth. I mean these are scouts that recommend players who are widely known. It's not like they're unearthing players from top 20 leagues. Having make so many signings so awfully wrong is quite something. Players who's physical capabilities are clear to see that won't match the premier league yet it seems scouts don't see it or just decide it's not a problem.

Then after a couple of months we all realice it doesn't and it will never work for the player here. I mean unless Zirkzee has completely changed his style from Bologna to Manchester I think even a fool would have predicted the outcome.
 
Judas said:
Oh I agree, no less damning thought, such an awful signing. We need to cut loose on failures quicker.
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Absolutely. One of our biggest issues is that the players that aren't good enough end up being here for 5 years and leave when their contract has run down. Just get them out right away if it isn't working.
 
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