It’s 1958

[Deleted member 101472]

It seems like right now, there’s not going to be much that will change in our lifetimes in terms of the absolute dead cert GOAT’s.

But in 1958, I’m sure it felt the same. Sure the sport was newer, but there were genuine stars of the game born in the 1900s though to the 1940s.

So if you were asked to do your top ten players of all time in the year 1958, what would your list be?

 

[Moby]

1. Alfredo Di Stefano
2. Ferenc Puskas
3. Zizinho
4. Ladislao Kubala
5. Sandor Kocsis
6. Guiseppe Meazza
7. Josef Bican
8. Jose Manuel Moreno
9. Leonidas
10. Nandor Hidegkuti

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

1. Didi
2. Puskas
3. Di Stefano
4. Jose Manuel Moreno
5. Meazza
6. Sindelar
7. Bican
8. Leonidas
9. Schiaffino
10. Zizinho

 

[BlackShark_80]

1. Di Stefano
2. Meazza
3. Puskas
4. Moreno
5. Didi
6. Valentino Mazzola
7. Sindelar
8. Kocsis
9. Zizinho
10. Stanley Matthews

Honorable mention: Schiaffino, Bozsik, Pedernera, Nordahl, Liedholm, Jose Leandro Andrade, Sarosi, Ocwirk, Czibor, Kubala.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm biased towards the ones we have good footage of but top three of Di Stefano, Puskas and Didi. As for the rest I'm not too sure but Matthews and Finney would be there or thereabouts

Edit - Good thread idea

 

[harms]

It's pretty much impossible to create an accurate list.

Di Stefano, Puskas and Meazza would probably be in a top-3, in that order. Didi somewhere near on the back of his incredible World Cup. Matthews, as one of the most famous and marketable players of the era, somewhere up there as well.

Other candidates:

Defenders: Nasazzi, Da Guia, Nilton
Midfielders: Zizinho, Finney, Czibor, Bozsik, Varela, Ocwirk
Forwards: Sarosi, Mazzola, Moreno, Sindelar, Leonidas, Erico, Pedernera, Kubala, Kocsis

 

[Invictus]

If I had to guesstimate...

1. di Stéfano
2. Puskás ~ Meazza
4. Scarone ~ Moreno
6. Didi
7. Schiaffino
8. Sárosi ~ Sindelaar
10. Zizinho

Really wanted to include the likes of Andrade, Bican, Kocsis, Walter, Valentino, Nasazzi, Leônidas, Matthews, Erico, Hidegkuti, Monti but there are only so many spots up for grabs, so compromises had to be made. di Stéfano, Meazza and Puskás would be in one bracket — with the former pulling ahead a wee bit (a lot like Pelé in contemporary rankings). Scarone and Moreno in an almighty tug-of-war for Top 4/5 — can't decide on an exact position for either because it's all based on hearsay and general narratives (which are shaped by time). The former seems a bit odd, and I'm sure this will be disproven by someone who's more knowledgeable about Uruguayan football (like @antohan), but I get the sense that he would have been relatively fresh in public consciousness as the leading light of the Konrad/Orth era — and by all accounts, his credentials are majestic: twice Olympic gold medalist, 4 times Campeonato Sudamericano winner, and TOTY in the inaugural World Cup — on top of being Uruguay's top scorer for close to 80 years, and leading Nacional to 8 league titles.

https://www.inter.it/en/news/58549/hector-scarone-the-uruguayan-wizard

Maybe swap him with Andrade or Nasazzi, but reckon at least 2 Uruguayans in the Top 10 is justified considering their dominance over the years, especially from the 1910s to the 1930s — unmatched by any other team apart from maybe Pozzo's Italy and later Brazil when they established their dynasty. Varela could crack the upper tiers as well, and maybe Petrone in the Top 35? Anyway, moving on — Didi at 6 on the back of a fantastic World Cup, and Schiaffino at 7. Then Sárosi and The Mozart of Football, and finally Zizinho.

A couple of things really interest me, and some of it will remain shrouded in mystery given the lack of tangible evidence...

1. How highly would the likes of Schlosser, Friedenreich, Zarra, Deák, Willimowski, Peyroteo, Mcgrory, Takacs, Dean, Piola be rated back then?
2. Nasazzi is probably the greatest central defender of the pre-Beckenbauer era on the basis of articles and narratives (on top of excelling at the World Cup), but in what order would one rank the likes of da Guia, Wright, Rava, Santamaría (who played well into the '60s).
3. As a follow-up to the previous point, Yashin kind of redefined goalkeeping towards the end of this period — like Beckenbauer/Facchetti/Nílton for defenders in the years to come, but how would the rest shake up...especially Beara (rated highly by none other than Yashin), Combi (a bit lost in the company of Buffon and Zoff but established several records on top of winning the World Cup and establishing a dynasty with Juventus), Gilmar, Plánicka, Zamora (frequently ranked as the best of his era and supposed to be excellent in 1934), Maspoli, Grosics, Hiden, Carrizo...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think the current players of the decade (50's) wouldn't have been the first players on the list and they wouldn't feature a lot. The love for older generations probably would have been more as it is the current human nature too.

Sarosi, Sindelar, Meazza, Mazzola, Zizinho probably would have the same status as Cruyff, Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Zico have today.

 

[antohan]

The former seems a bit odd, and I'm sure this will be disproven by someone who's more knowledgeable about Uruguayan football (like @antohan), but I get the sense that he would have been relatively fresh in public consciousness as the leading light of the Konrad/Orth era — and by all accounts, his credentials are majestic: twice Olympic gold medalist, 4 times Campeonato Sudamericano winner, and TOTY in the inaugural World Cup — on top of being Uruguay's top scorer for close to 80 years, and leading Nacional to 8 league titles.

https://www.inter.it/en/news/58549/hector-scarone-the-uruguayan-wizard

Maybe swap him with Andrade or Nasazzi, but reckon at least 2 Uruguayans in the Top 10 is justified considering their dominance over the years, especially from the 1910s to the 1930s — unmatched by any other team apart from maybe Pozzo's Italy and later Brazil when they established their dynasty. Varela could crack the upper tiers as well, and maybe Petrone in the Top 35? Anyway, moving on — Didi at 6 on the back of a fantastic World Cup, and Schiaffino at 7. Then Sárosi and The Mozart of Football, and finally Zizinho.

I rarely sing his praises as he is a Nacional legend and responsible for coining Peñarol's nickname ("manyas", his father wanted him to join Peñarol and his brother said "what for? To mangiare merda (eat shit)?").

It's clear Uruguay dominated South American and then World Football over a 15 year spell (1916-1930). Throughout that second phase (2 Olympics and a WC) he was the fulcrum of the attack. A lot of great attacking players came and went in 1920-1930, form being temporary over a decade. He was the consistent presence.

You also have to factor into that Meazza quote that he was playing alongside a 33-34 year old Scarone.

Schiaffino is also definitely there in my book. Gianni Brera was convinced to his last day he had been the best of them all, and we are talking about the foremost and most influential football pundit in Italy for three or four decades.

Will have a think about the rest. Don't think defenders ever make these, and only Nasazzi and Da Guia would have a shout at all. Possibly Andrade for his revolutionary attacking contribution at halfback, but can't see it with the great options available.

Midfielders? Not Monti or Varela, same reasons. Maybe one of Ocwirk/Bozsik/Didí as midfield playmakers, depends on when in 1958 really.

Will have a think but the shortlist probably is 10-15 and the difficulty is which 3 or 4 eliminate the other 5.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I think the current players of the decade (50's) wouldn't have been the first players on the list and they wouldn't feature a lot. The love for older generations probably would have been more as it is the current human nature too.

Sarosi, Sindelar, Meazza, Mazzola, Zizinho probably would have the same status as Cruyff, Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Zico have today.

This is a really good point that I was considering as well. I might re-do my own list like this if I imagine myself in Oct. 1958 with some nostalgia for older players

1. Jose Manuel Moreno
2. Meazza
3. Schiaffino
4. Sindelar
5. Bican
6. Didi
7. Di Stefano
8. Puskas
9. Matthews
10. Zizinho

 

[antohan]

This is a really good point that I was considering as well. I might re-do my own list like this if I imagine myself in Oct. 1958 with some nostalgia for older players

1. Jose Manuel Moreno
2. Meazza
3. Schiaffino
4. Sindelar
5. Bican
6. Didi
7. Di Stefano
8. Puskas
9. Matthews
10. Zizinho

To be honest, if you take that to the extreme you can't possibly come up with that list. If you were European Moreno would likely not even make the list, while if you were in South America the likes of Bican, Matthews and Sindelar wouldn't. I don't think anyone but a Brazilian would have Zizinho in it as you need to consider his complete body of work and nobody outside would be all that familiar with it.

Basically, you would be making up your list with a massive bias for what you have seen over what you only heard about. A problem we largely don't have

 

[Deleted member 101472]

To be honest, if you take that to the extreme you can't possibly come up with that list. If you were European Moreno would likely not even make the list, while if you were in South America the likes of Bican, Matthews and Sindelar wouldn't. I don't think anyone but a Brazilian would have Zizinho in it as you need to consider his complete body of work and nobody outside would be all that familiar with it.

Basically, you would be making up your list with a massive bias for what you have seen over what you only heard about. A problem we largely don't have

Maybe best to put yourself in the position of world travelling sports journalist

 

[antohan]

FIRST FILTER - attack is always sexier

My ~20 man shortlist, leaving out goalies, defenders and most central midfielders as per post above would be:

Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Erico, Moreno, Pedernera, Di Stéfano, Matthews, Finney, Zizinho, Mazzola, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas, Kocsis, Bozsik, Kubala, Kopa, Didí

As you would expect, lots of #10s/orchestrators that defined teams and eras. Since we have hardly any footage (not that you would have in 1958 either), you need to apply some filters that can separate those. Not being a #10 helps bring some variety to the roster too.

SECOND FILTER - BEST OUT OF ONE LOT

In picking Liedholm I already applied a common logic in these things: picking the most outstanding star in a team or unit (Gre-No-Li, in that case) unless there is a substantial separate body of work (e.g. ADS relative to River Plate). Not sure Kopa manages to extricate himself from ADS' shadow there (Real have won the last three European Cups) despite his Reims and France exploits.

That leaves:

Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Erico, Moreno (it's really tough leaving out Pedernera there but with so many players of his ilk individual genius and romance wins out, a bit like choosing between Charlton and Best), Di Stefano, Matthews (beats Finney, can't see anyone outside England including both), Zizinho, Mazzola, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas, Kubala, Didí.

THIRD FILTER - BODY OF WORK

You would invariably factor in longevity, entire body of work, and a particular emphasis on international tournaments. Let's face it, you would have hardly heard of them otherwise, I still remember how I looked forward to World Cups as a kid as the one time all the world's best players were on display and as the somewhat level playing field to really see who was great and who was hot air (distinctly remember a lot of hype around Toni Polster in 1990).

That knocks out Didí (it would be like including Mbappe after the last World Cup), Kubala (unless you were in Spain or watched Barca a lot), Mazzola, Moreno and Erico.

Leaves: Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Di Stefano, Matthews, Zizinho, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas

FOURTH FILTER - WINNING STUFF

At that point you would also think about "winning important stuff", so you would leave Scarone, Meazza, Di Stefano, Schiaffino, Liedholm and Puskas in your top ten.

The Olympics were still a big deal in the 50s and in some cases the only way to really compare nations as the economics of football started dismantling national sides as you played for the country you were contracted in, not born in. It would quickly erode as all Eastern European First XIs were technically amateur, while Western ones weren't, starting a period of absolute Eastern European dominance.

REVIEW BASED ON PURE GUT-FEEL

That's 6 and then it's a matter of working back through the filters and rescuing four that got filtered along the way.

From the last filter maybe Zizinho (given how shocking the 1950 loss was), Matthews (longevity, different type of contribution being a plus, the status of the English game also being very much up there), Leonidas and Bican (scream goals).

Then you probably have Sindelar, Moreno or Mazzola, all for different reasons (tortured genius, lifestyle of the extrovert genius, tragic genius).

I'd go for Matthews, Leonidas, Bican and Moreno myself. Leonidas is a bit of a straight shootout with Zizinho, can't really justify having both.

1. Alfredo Di Stefano
2. Ferenc Puskas
3. José Manuel Moreno
4. Giuseppe Meazza
5. Juan Alberto Schiaffino
6. Josef Bican
7. Leonidas da Silva
8. Héctor Scarone
9. Nils Liedholm (in my gut this could be Sindelar, Zizinho or Kubala too, but I'll stick to the outcome of the filters, by all accounts as worthy of being there)
10. Stanley Matthews

 

[Deleted member 101472]

FIRST FILTER - attack is always sexier

My ~20 man shortlist, leaving out goalies, defenders and most central midfielders as per post above would be:

Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Erico, Moreno, Labruna, Di Stéfano, Matthews, Finney, Zizinho, Mazzola, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas, Kocsis, Bozsik, Kubala, Kopa, Didí

As you would expect, lots of #10s/orchestrators that defined teams and eras. Since we have hardly any footage (not that you would have in 1958 either), you need to apply some filters that can separate those. Not being one of those helps bring some variety to the roster too.

SECOND FILTER - BEST OUT OF ONE LOT

In picking Liedholm I already applied a common logic in these things: picking the most outstanding star in a team or unit (Gre-No-Li, in that case) unless there is a substantial separate body of work (e.g. ADS relative to River Plate). Not sure Kopa manages to extricate himself from ADS' shadow there (Real have won the last three European Cups) despite his Reims and France exploits.

That leaves:

Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Erico, Moreno (it's really tough leaving out Labruna there but with so many players of his ilk individual genius and romance wins out, a bit like choosing between Charlton and Best), Di Stefano, Matthews (beats Finney, can't see anyone outside England including both), Zizinho, Mazzola, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas, Kubala, Didí.

THIRD FILTER - BODY OF WORK

You would invariably factor in longevity, entire body of work, and a particular emphasis on international tournaments. Let's face it, you would have hardly heard of them otherwise, I still remember how I looked forward to World Cups as a kid as the one time all the world's best players were on display and as the somewhat level playing field to really see who was great and who was hot air (distinctly remember a lot of hype around Toni Polster in 1990).

That knocks out Didí (it would be like including Mbappe after the last World Cup), Kubala (unless you were in Spain or watched Barca a lot), Mazzola, Moreno and Erico.

Leaves: Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Di Stefano, Matthews, Zizinho, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas

FOURTH FILTER - WINNING STUFF

At that point you would also think about "winning important stuff", so you would leave Scarone, Meazza, Di Stefano, Schiaffino, Liedholm and Puskas in your top ten.

The Olympics were still a big deal in the 50s and in some cases the only way to really compare nations as the economics of football started dismantling national sides as you played for the country you were contracted in, not born in. It would quickly erode as all Eastern European First XIs were technically amateur, while Western ones weren't, starting a period of absolute Eastern European dominance.

REVIEW BASED ON PURE GUT-FEEL

That's 6 and then it's a matter of working back through the filters and rescuing four that got filtered along the way.

From the last filter maybe Zizinho (given how shocking the 1950 loss was), Matthews (longevity, different type of contribution being a plus, the status of the English game also being very much up there), Leonidas and Bican (scream goals).

Then you probably have Sindelar, Moreno or Mazzola, all for different reasons (tortured genius, lifestyle of the extrovert genius, tragic genius).

I'd go for Matthews, Leonidas, Bican and Moreno myself. Leonidas is a bit of a straight shootout with Zizinho, can't really justify having both.

1. Alfredo Di Stefano
2. Ferenc Puskas
3. José Manuel Moreno
4. Giuseppe Meazza
5. Juan Alberto Schiaffino
6. Josef Bican
7. Leonidas da Silva
8. Héctor Scarone
9. Nils Liedholm (in my gut this could be Sindelar, Zizinho or Kubala too, but I'll stick to the outcome of the filters, by all accounts as worthy of being there)
10. Stanley Matthews

Top post

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

FOURTH FILTER - WINNING STUFF

At that point you would also think about "winning important stuff", so you would leave Scarone, Meazza, Di Stefano, Schiaffino, Liedholm and Puskas in your top ten.

The Olympics were still a big deal in the 50s and in some cases the only way to really compare nations as the economics of football started dismantling national sides as you played for the country you were contracted in, not born in. It would quickly erode as all Eastern European First XIs were technically amateur, while Western ones weren't, starting a period of absolute Eastern European dominance.

Don't agree with this part. Heavy weightage given to European cup by the looks of it, a tournament which didn't even exist for half a decade. I am not sure how prestigious it was so early considering Busby had to fight the FA to even feature in it.

Not sure how different Di Stefano's legacy would have been without the European Cup.

Also not a fault of the players before that similar European contests didn't exist. Both 1934 and 1938 WCs had a high number of European teams featuring in the semis and finals.

Like the thought you have put in but seems a bit too dismissive of the older European lads.

One name that has missed all attention is Planicka. Might have been the Yashin figure back in the day.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

To be honest, if you take that to the extreme you can't possibly come up with that list. If you were European Moreno would likely not even make the list, while if you were in South America the likes of Bican, Matthews and Sindelar wouldn't. I don't think anyone but a Brazilian would have Zizinho in it as you need to consider his complete body of work and nobody outside would be all that familiar with it.

Basically, you would be making up your list with a massive bias for what you have seen over what you only heard about. A problem we largely don't have

Oh for sure. With the lack of global information it would be almost impossible for anyone to realistically come up with a global all-time list like people can now. I thought the question itself lends itself to a bit of anachronism though otherwise we are just in the mire of trying to sort out what someone would actually know about the players on another continent - especially all the Eastern European/Russian players - some of which probably should be considered here as well

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Not much mention of Adolfo Pedernera, from what I recall ADS idolized him

 

[antohan]

Oh for sure. With the lack of global information it would be almost impossible for anyone to realistically come up with a global all-time list like people can now. I thought the question itself lends itself to a bit of anachronism though otherwise we are just in the mire of trying to sort out what someone would actually know about the players on another continent - especially all the Eastern European/Russian players - some of which probably should be considered here as well

Sarosi and Bican feature heavily, as do the Magyars. More than Russians, at the 58 mark Yugoslavia would have been top of mind, Zebec in particular, but he had won nothing and had a tournament as winger (top scorer) and another as left half. Had featured in the EC as well.

Would be one of those you wouldn't stick in an all-time list at that point but you would have in mind as possible future addition. Which would never come to happen as he got more defensive roles and Pelé, Garrincha and later Charlton and Eusebio stuck themselves firmly into the list.

 

[antohan]

Maybe best to put yourself in the position of world travelling sports journalist

I actually have the benefit of having the articles written by someone exactly like that. He went to all the WCs up to 1990.

It's basically an X-ray every four years of his received wisdom from others going into the tourno, first hand insights during, and conclusions every four years.

Going into the 1950 WC he dedicates an entire article to Valentino Mazzola, having never seen him, talking about Superga and how the World Cup would miss one of its expected leading lights.

He also mentions Sweden had been dismantled post Olympics (which he had been to and thought they were hugely impressive and nailed on 1950 candidates), and later is massively looking forward to a 58 team which belatedly included those greats "sacrificing pace and power [due to age] for technique and game control".

It's a selection of articles mind, so the test of time would have influenced it. E.g. no articles praising a Toto Schillacci-like flash in the pan.

 

[Himannv]

FIRST FILTER - attack is always sexier

My ~20 man shortlist, leaving out goalies, defenders and most central midfielders as per post above would be:

Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Erico, Moreno, Labruna, Di Stéfano, Matthews, Finney, Zizinho, Mazzola, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas, Kocsis, Bozsik, Kubala, Kopa, Didí

As you would expect, lots of #10s/orchestrators that defined teams and eras. Since we have hardly any footage (not that you would have in 1958 either), you need to apply some filters that can separate those. Not being a #10 helps bring some variety to the roster too.

SECOND FILTER - BEST OUT OF ONE LOT

In picking Liedholm I already applied a common logic in these things: picking the most outstanding star in a team or unit (Gre-No-Li, in that case) unless there is a substantial separate body of work (e.g. ADS relative to River Plate). Not sure Kopa manages to extricate himself from ADS' shadow there (Real have won the last three European Cups) despite his Reims and France exploits.

That leaves:

Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Erico, Moreno (it's really tough leaving out Labruna there but with so many players of his ilk individual genius and romance wins out, a bit like choosing between Charlton and Best), Di Stefano, Matthews (beats Finney, can't see anyone outside England including both), Zizinho, Mazzola, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas, Kubala, Didí.

THIRD FILTER - BODY OF WORK

You would invariably factor in longevity, entire body of work, and a particular emphasis on international tournaments. Let's face it, you would have hardly heard of them otherwise, I still remember how I looked forward to World Cups as a kid as the one time all the world's best players were on display and as the somewhat level playing field to really see who was great and who was hot air (distinctly remember a lot of hype around Toni Polster in 1990).

That knocks out Didí (it would be like including Mbappe after the last World Cup), Kubala (unless you were in Spain or watched Barca a lot), Mazzola, Moreno and Erico.

Leaves: Scarone, Bican, Sindelar, Sarosi, Meazza, Leonidas, Di Stefano, Matthews, Zizinho, Schiaffino, Liedholm, Puskas

FOURTH FILTER - WINNING STUFF

At that point you would also think about "winning important stuff", so you would leave Scarone, Meazza, Di Stefano, Schiaffino, Liedholm and Puskas in your top ten.

The Olympics were still a big deal in the 50s and in some cases the only way to really compare nations as the economics of football started dismantling national sides as you played for the country you were contracted in, not born in. It would quickly erode as all Eastern European First XIs were technically amateur, while Western ones weren't, starting a period of absolute Eastern European dominance.

REVIEW BASED ON PURE GUT-FEEL

That's 6 and then it's a matter of working back through the filters and rescuing four that got filtered along the way.

From the last filter maybe Zizinho (given how shocking the 1950 loss was), Matthews (longevity, different type of contribution being a plus, the status of the English game also being very much up there), Leonidas and Bican (scream goals).

Then you probably have Sindelar, Moreno or Mazzola, all for different reasons (tortured genius, lifestyle of the extrovert genius, tragic genius).

I'd go for Matthews, Leonidas, Bican and Moreno myself. Leonidas is a bit of a straight shootout with Zizinho, can't really justify having both.

1. Alfredo Di Stefano
2. Ferenc Puskas
3. José Manuel Moreno
4. Giuseppe Meazza
5. Juan Alberto Schiaffino
6. Josef Bican
7. Leonidas da Silva
8. Héctor Scarone
9. Nils Liedholm (in my gut this could be Sindelar, Zizinho or Kubala too, but I'll stick to the outcome of the filters, by all accounts as worthy of being there)
10. Stanley Matthews

Excellent post (possibly one of the best I've read on here).

I'm surprised by the inclusion of Leonidas ahead of Zizinho. I always considered the latter to be the better player.

 

[Indnyc]

What about Antonio Sastre? He was pretty highly rated during the time, wasn't he?

 

[Physiocrat]

Great post @antohan

 

[antohan]

Don't agree with this part. Heavy weightage given to European cup by the looks of it, a tournament which didn't even exist for half a decade. I am not sure how prestigious it was so early considering Busby had to fight the FA to even feature in it.

Not sure how different Di Stefano's legacy would have been without the European Cup.

The FA also opposed WC participation.

I am weighing up the EC heavily indeed, particularly in ranking ADS first. It had three editions by then, some of the best teams and players in Europe and Real was quite clearly dominant. Any football fan would take notice of that over tales of legends past IMO.

Also not a fault of the players before that similar European contests didn't exist.

Mitropa cup. But it was all quite messy in the 30s with the constant changes in the political landscape.

Both 1934 and 1938 WCs had a high number of European teams featuring in the semis and finals.

Like the thought you have put in but seems a bit too dismissive of the older European lads.

In fairness, the two strongest South American sides didn't participate. Argentina sent a reserve side in 1934.

I wouldn't agree with dismissing the merits of those who excelled (can only beat what's in front of you) but I wouldn't overrate them either.

I did include loads/all of the earlier Europeans, it's just the case Italy won both WCs and the Olympics. The only one I think I should have included was Sindelar but I had already given him a bye in not choosing between him and Bican.

One name that has missed all attention is Planicka. Might have been the Yashin figure back in the day.

He was by all means. Ruled out goalies but Zamora, Planicka and Beara definitely would be Top 5 keepers.

 

[harms]

One name that has missed all attention is Planicka. Might have been the Yashin figure back in the day.

György Sárosi 33

György Sárosi 51

György Sárosi 61

György Sárosi 66

György Sárosi 76

György Sárosi 81

György Sárosi 85

From pre-Yashin keepers Beara impressed me most, Carrizo, Zamora and Grosics are also somewhere near the top, not sure about Planicka being the best of them all (he was definitely in the top tier though).

 

[antohan]

Excellent post (possibly one of the best I've read on here).

I'm surprised by the inclusion of Leonidas ahead of Zizinho. I always considered the latter to be the better player.

I'm pretty sure Zizinho was the better all round footballer.

It was a straight shootout in that I didn't see how you could/should have two Brazilians, and I felt prolific goalscorers deserved more presence. It's easier to pick Pedernera/Moreno over Labruna (just now noticed I meant to say Pedernera and not Labruna in the original post), Puskas over Kocsis... but at some point you have to remember goals win games.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

György Sárosi 33
György Sárosi 51
György Sárosi 61
György Sárosi 66
György Sárosi 76
György Sárosi 81
György Sárosi 85

From pre-Yashin keepers Beara impressed me most, Carrizo, Zamora and Grosics are also somewhere near the top, not sure about Planicka being the best of them all (he was definitely in the top tier though).

If only I had a dollar every time someone mentioned 'Sarosi put 7 past Planicka'

I did include loads/all of the earlier Europeans, it's just the case Italy won both WCs and the Olympics. The only one I think I should have included was Sindelar but I had already given him a bye in not choosing between him and Bican.

Bican (some might consider a FTB) is an interesting choice over someone like Sarosi who scored in every game of the WC and Sindelaar who was the master of one of the most celebrated and still remembered squads of all times.

Other than that, I understand the rationale of your choices (not the order per se)

 

[antohan]

György Sárosi 33

György Sárosi 51

György Sárosi 61

György Sárosi 66

György Sárosi 76

György Sárosi 81

György Sárosi 85

From pre-Yashin keepers Beara impressed me most, Carrizo, Zamora and Grosics are also somewhere near the top, not sure about Planicka being the best of them all (he was definitely in the top tier though).

Sarosi's stats are absolutely insane. Problem is they are so fecking mental I keep wondering about "too good to be true". His WC form stacks up though.

As I said yesterday, you can very easily draw up 5 or so that must be there. The hardest part is which 3-4 leave out another 5.

 

[antohan]

Bican (some might consider a FTB) is an interesting choice over someone like Sarosi who scored in every game of the WC and Sindelaar who was the master of one of the most celebrated and still remembered squads of all times.

Other than that, I understand the rationale of your choices (not the order per se)

Aye, I just made a point of not dismissing prolific goalscorers entirely.

For what it's worth, the reporter I mentioned earlier had high praise for Sindelar and Sarosi (more so Sindelar probably on account of greater expectation pre-1934 WC, first hand confirmation, and his tragic story thereafter which he edits in).

When it comes to Bican he is bummed out pre-38 that he wasn't playing for the Czechs as he keeps hearing about him but wasn't anywhere near as impressed in 34 as the hype indicated. After the WC he wonders if the Czechs might have won it with him but can't really tell.

Screw it, I should have ditched him for Sarosi as a Sindelar/Bican combo

Not an exact science by any means.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Screw it, I should have ditched him for Sarosi as a Sindelar/Bican combo

I'd take that

 

[Enigma_87]

@antohan great post there.

I'm not sure with the exclusion of Didi there tho. He was pretty good in 54', already won the state championship and Campeonato Carioca with Botafogo and established Brazil player for more than half a decade.

On the back of that WC as well in 1958 he should IMO be top 10 based on his total work.

Apart from that Kubala is certainly top 10 for me. In the 50's it was all about Di Stefano and Kubala in Spain and probably were the hottest topic in club football with the emergence of both sides as prominent ones in European football.

Kopa is a definite must in the top 10 - regular Ballon D'or nominee and winner in 58.

To me the top 10 isn't much different to what @Moby posted:

1. Alfredo Di Stefano
2. Ferenc Puskas
3. Zizinho
4. Ladislao Kubala
5. Sandor Kocsis
6. Guiseppe Meazza
7. Raymond Kopa
8. Josef Bican
9. Jose Manuel Moreno
10. Juan Alberto Schiaffino

with Liedholm narrowly missing out.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

No Billy Wright?

 

[harms]

No Billy Wright?

He's unlikely to displace Nasazzi (clear stand out) or Da Guia based on his achievements. Obviously he did not have much of a chance of proving himself on the international level, Hungary's beatings aside, due to FA's policy at the time.

 

[Enigma_87]

No Billy Wright?

The 30's, 40's and 50's are really attackers heavy, hence they would get more recognition. It's harder even today a CB like Godin to receive proper plaudits and to be named top #10 in the world, let alone in times where 2-3-5 was the most used system.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

He's unlikely to displace Nasazzi (clear stand out) or Da Guia based on his achievements. Obviously he did not have much of a chance of proving himself on the international level, Hungary's beatings aside, due to FA's policy at the time.

The 30's, 40's and 50's are really attackers heavy, hence they would get more recognition. It's harder even today a CB like Godin to receive proper plaudits and to be named top #10 in the world, let alone in times where 2-3-5 was the most used system.

He was 2nd Balon d'Or in 1957 and 6th in 1958. Obviously a Top 10 player in Europe at that time and I don't see how we can ignore that when making a list in 1958!

 

[harms]

He was 2nd Balon d'Or in 1957 and 6th in 1958. Obviously a Top 10 player in Europe at that time and I don't see how we can ignore that when making a list in 1958!

A list of 10 greatest footballers of all-time? Easily. For different reasons, England never dominated world football at that point, although I'm a big fan of their 50's side. I doubt that anyone will put Wright higher than Matthews and Finney, and that's just from that team. As you can see, even Matthews (arguably the best and unarguably the most famous/recognisable name) hardly breaks into the top-10 in most lists.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

A list of 10 greatest footballers of all-time?

Ah, my mistake. I thought this was Top 10 as at 1958. Just realized it was all time as at 1958.

 

[Enigma_87]

He was 2nd Balon d'Or in 1957 and 6th in 1958. Obviously a Top 10 player in Europe at that time and I don't see how we can ignore that when making a list in 1958!

In the 30's, 40's, 50's SA, Hungary and Italy would probably have the best bet in terms of dominant players and greatest players at the time. If we count the dominant factor and also Hungarians who had a much bigger profile at the time that leaves little place for other European players to break in the top 10.

Apart from Hungarians and Meazza, I can see only Kopa challenging SA players for the best 10 of those decades.

And Kopa has much higher personal accolades - back to back La Liga winner at the time. Current Ballon D'or winner, finished 3rd in Ballon D'or rankings in the two years prior, won the French league twice and runner up at EC in 56', etc.

 

[Gio]

To be fair Wolves gained a lot of international recognition around that time with their matches against Honved and Wright was very much seen as the star of the side. Not only that but like Moore in the 1960s and Beckham in the 1990s he had a significant public profile streching beyond football which influences the popular consensus on who makes these lists.

But yes as @Enigma_87 and @harms say, you’d be pushed to get a single defender in a top 10 of players at any time, never mind one without the track record of serial international or continental winners like Nasazzi, Santos’ or Santamaria.

 

[harms]

To be fair Wolves gained a lot of international recognition around that time with their matches against Honved and Wright was very much seen as the star of the side. Not only that but like Moore in the 1960s and Beckham in the 1990s he had a significant public profile streching beyond football which influences the popular consensus on who makes these lists.

Yeah, I know, they even played against Spartak Moscow! Netto scored an apparently amazing goal that you can see from the ground camera on the different side of the pitch (so, basically you can't).

 

[Gio]

Yeah, I know, they even played against Spartak Moscow! Netto scored an apparently amazing goal that you can see from the ground camera on the different side of the pitch (so, basically you can't).

Aye. In the absence of organised continental competition those games had a lot of cachet at the time. Dynamo Moscow's tour of the country in 1945 is still talked about by Rangers fans of that generation to this day.