Israel - Palestine Discussion

Giggsyking said:
I have not seen one honest investigation from them in 4 months in regards to the war. All the Palestinian suffering and they try hard to whitewash the Israeli image.
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They're not perfect obviously, but to suggest it's a complete whitewashing doesn't really fly.
 
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VorZakone said:
May not be perfect but to suggest it's a complete whitewashing doesn't really fly.
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Yes hence the edit in my post. But still. They have not made an honest investigation in favor of the Palestinians. All their reporting that is in a way in favor of Palestine, is facts known via other media outlets that they themselves can not report in other form.

But narrative shifting investigations always feels like Israeli driven propaganda.
 
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Giggsyking said:
Yes hence the edit in my post. But still. They have not made an honest investigation in favor of the Palestinians. All their reporting that is in a way in favor of Palestine, is facts known via other media outlets that they themselves can not report in other form.

But narrative shifting investigations always feels like Israeli driven propaganda.
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I don't know to which extent non-Western media has access to Gaza but isn't access for Western journalists rather restricted? Hence the reliance on visual investigations.
That being said, one could definitely make the argument that major Western newspapers have been too timid on this subject, I haven't really seen frontpage-level criticism at the Israeli governnment for this restricted access.

Currently, the only way for journalists to enter the Gaza Strip is by embedding with the Israel Defense Forces, or IDF. But that access is restricted and risks skewing an audience’s understanding of the conflict, according to some reporters and analysts.

“It’s incredibly frustrating that we don’t have more access to Gaza,” Steve Hendrix, Jerusalem bureau chief for The Washington Post, told VOA.
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https://www.voanews.com/a/media-weigh-ethics-over-access-for-military-embeds-to-gaza/7476768.html
 
VorZakone said:
I don't know to which extent non-Western media has access to Gaza but isn't access for Western journalists rather restricted? Hence the reliance on visual investigations.
That being said, one could definitely make the argument that major Western newspapers have been too timid on this subject, I haven't really seen frontpage-level criticism at the Israeli governnment for this restricted access.


https://www.voanews.com/a/media-weigh-ethics-over-access-for-military-embeds-to-gaza/7476768.html
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I should have probably worded my post better. They have not made an honest investigative journalistic report in favor of the Palestinians. All their reporting that is in a way in favor of Palestine, is facts known via other media outlets that they themselves can not report in other form.

But narrative shifting investigations always feels like Israeli driven propaganda.
 
VorZakone said:
I don't know to which extent non-Western media has access to Gaza but isn't access for Western journalists rather restricted? Hence the reliance on visual investigations.
That being said, one could definitely make the argument that major Western newspapers have been too timid on this subject, I haven't really seen frontpage-level criticism at the Israeli governnment for this restricted access.


https://www.voanews.com/a/media-weigh-ethics-over-access-for-military-embeds-to-gaza/7476768.html
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Another thing

They include tight restrictions on quoting Hamas and reporting other Palestinian perspectives while Israel government statements are taken at face value. In addition, every story on the conflict must be cleared by the Jerusalem bureau before broadcast or publication.
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VorZakone said:
I don't know to which extent non-Western media has access to Gaza but isn't access for Western journalists rather restricted? Hence the reliance on visual investigations.
That being said, one could definitely make the argument that major Western newspapers have been too timid on this subject, I haven't really seen frontpage-level criticism at the Israeli governnment for this restricted access.


https://www.voanews.com/a/media-weigh-ethics-over-access-for-military-embeds-to-gaza/7476768.html
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When Gazans themselves are sharing live feeds of their suffering and the Israelis are sharing with glee their genocidal actions, this excuse doesn't wash, IMO.
 
rotherham_red said:
When Gazans themselves are sharing live feeds of their suffering and the Israelis are sharing with glee their genocidal actions, this excuse doesn't wash, IMO.
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It's another piece of bull crap to shift away from what's really happening out there. No surprises the people using those tactics here.
 
I just got blocked by a lunatic on Twitter. Luckily I managed to remember what I was about to reply to...

"They are killing Hamas militants exclusively, and only killing civilians who are near the actual hot war. They are not killing "all Palestinians" or even "all of Hamas." They will be just as happy to imprison them should they surrender. Nor killing Muslims as a goal"


This is what we are dealing with and why the internet is a fecking awful place at times. This person also believes vaccines cause autism and other medical issues and refuses to get her kids vaccinated for anything. She has 5,000 followers too.

It scares me how people can think like this. I suppose the 10,000 kids killed were all on the 'hot zone' :rolleyes:
 
langster said:
I just got blocked by a lunatic on Twitter. Luckily I managed to remember what I was about to reply to...

"They are killing Hamas militants exclusively, and only killing civilians who are near the actual hot war. They are not killing "all Palestinians" or even "all of Hamas." They will be just as happy to imprison them should they surrender. Nor killing Muslims as a goal"


This is what we are dealing with and why the internet is a fecking awful place at times. This person also believes vaccines cause autism and other medical issues and refuses to get her kids vaccinated for anything. She has 5,000 followers too.

It scares me how people can think like this. I suppose the 10,000 kids killed were all on the 'hot zone' :rolleyes:
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To be fair when IDF leveled entire neighborhoods their argument was that some Hamas operative where in a room in one of the buildings and that the rest of the neighborhood was an unfortunate collateral damage which was accepted by most if not all important world leaders. Until the US wondered if IDF wasn't being a bit reckless.

So I understand her point.
 
langster said:
I just got blocked by a lunatic on Twitter. Luckily I managed to remember what I was about to reply to...

"They are killing Hamas militants exclusively, and only killing civilians who are near the actual hot war. They are not killing "all Palestinians" or even "all of Hamas." They will be just as happy to imprison them should they surrender. Nor killing Muslims as a goal"


This is what we are dealing with and why the internet is a fecking awful place at times. This person also believes vaccines cause autism and other medical issues and refuses to get her kids vaccinated for anything. She has 5,000 followers too.

It scares me how people can think like this. I suppose the 10,000 kids killed were all on the 'hot zone' :rolleyes:
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RedCafé is the only sane place I found to discuss this matter and many others.

Anywhere else would make one nuke the whole planet.
 
berbatrick said:
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That's what you get when you're imbued since your childhood with a divine sense of superiority. Nothing you can do is wrong and any perceived threat must be obliterated by any means necesssary. They show all of the signs of a heavily indoctrinated and militarized, supremacist society.

Beacon of light and only democracy in the region, my fecking ass.
 
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berbatrick said:
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The numbers are worse if you look at them in more detail. The question is specifically "aid transferred by international bodies not linked to Hamas or to UNRWA." The numbers are poor across all Jewish subsamples, with almost 40% of the Jewish left opposing this.

The poll also shows that most Jewish Israelis don't think there will be "absolute victory" against Hamas, but they oppose a political agreement to end the war or humanitarian aid. So it isn't even an "ends justify the means" scenario.
 
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I don't wanna get too involved in this thread since I feel out of my depth knowledge-wise, but from the outside all I'm seeing is Gaza just getting obliterated and IDF soldiers acting with disgusting callousness. I don't like to take things at face value whilst just scrolling though so:

Is this as widespread as it seems?
What have Hamas being doing? I heard about the attack on the music festival but are they regularly attacking Israel still? I've got a Jewish friend who lives in NYC and she's constantly posting this 'save Israel' stuff that feels a bit much considering what they're doing to Palestine. But like I said I don't really see anything about that so it's either not happening or I've not seen any news about it.
 
Solius said:
I don't wanna get too involved in this thread since I feel out of my depth knowledge-wise, but from the outside all I'm seeing is Gaza just getting obliterated and IDF soldiers acting with disgusting callousness. I don't like to take things at face value whilst just scrolling though so:
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We're close to 30000 Palestinians murdered (20700 are women and children), 70000 injured and at least 7000 missing under the rubble. People in the north have been starving and several children have already died of malnutrition, the latest was a 2-month-old infant. Israel doesn't allow much aid in Gaza and rarely anything reaches its northern parts. And yes Gaza's infrastructure has been pretty much destroyed, mostly to make it inhabitable and partly for fun.
 
Solius said:
I don't wanna get too involved in this thread since I feel out of my depth knowledge-wise, but from the outside all I'm seeing is Gaza just getting obliterated and IDF soldiers acting with disgusting callousness. I don't like to take things at face value whilst just scrolling though so:

Is this as widespread as it seems?
What have Hamas being doing? I heard about the attack on the music festival but are they regularly attacking Israel still? I've got a Jewish friend who lives in NYC and she's constantly posting this 'save Israel' stuff that feels a bit much considering what they're doing to Palestine. But like I said I don't really see anything about that so it's either not happening or I've not seen any news about it.
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You mean the actions of the IDF soldiers? Seemingly so. The Israeli military and the government have asked them to stop filming these sorts of videos on TikTok, so who knows how prevalent their actions are, but it seems like everyday we're still seeing these abhorrent clips, coupled to footage from Israeli news shows and Parliament where they seem frighteningly unapologetic and even suggesting they haven't gone far enough in 'silencing' Gaza.

As for Hamas' current involvement since the October 7th attacks, they're pretty much just conducting guerrilla attacks on Israeli forces in Gaza since they're not a conventional military who have no airforce, ordnance or ground armour to match them, all while attempting to negotiate (via third parties) a hostage exchange, offering to release their own Israeli hostages for thousands of Palestinians who themselves have been kidnapped over the years, as well as political prisoners.

Is my response an impartial and completely objective one? Admittedly not, but I don't see how anyone can remain impartial when what we're seeing is essentially an unapologetic slaughter of thousands of men, women and children, dooming millions to starvation and causing a level of destruction unparalleled in recent history. By this point the whole 'self-defence' or 'save Israel' rhetoric cannot in anyway be justified. Not when we're talking about a nuclear armed state with the military they have, as well as the backing they have from the US.
 
Idxomer said:
We're close to 30000 Palestinians murdered (20700 are women and children), 70000 injured and at least 7000 missing under the rubble. People in the north have been starving and several children have already died of malnutrition, the latest was a 2-month-old infant. Israel doesn't allow much aid in Gaza and rarely anything reaches its northern parts. And yes Gaza's infrastructure has been pretty much destroyed, mostly to make it inhabitable and partly for fun.
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Kaos said:
You mean the actions of the IDF soldiers? Seemingly so. The Israeli military and the government have asked them to stop filming these sorts of videos on TikTok, so who knows how prevalent their actions are, but it seems like everyday we're still seeing these abhorrent clips, coupled to footage from Israeli news shows and Parliament where they seem frighteningly unapologetic and even suggesting they haven't gone far enough in 'silencing' Gaza.

As for Hamas' current involvement since the October 7th attacks, they're pretty much just conducting guerrilla attacks on Israeli forces in Gaza since they're not a conventional military who have no airforce, ordnance or ground armour to match them, all while attempting to negotiate (via third parties) a hostage exchange, offering to release their own Israeli hostages for thousands of Palestinians who themselves have been kidnapped over the years, as well as political prisoners.

Is my response an impartial and completely objective one? Admittedly not, but I don't see how anyone can remain impartial when what we're seeing is essentially an unapologetic slaughter of thousands of men, women and children, dooming millions to starvation and causing a level of destruction unparalleled in recent history. By this point the whole 'self-defence' or 'save Israel' rhetoric cannot in anyway be justified. Not when we're talking about a nuclear armed state with the military they have, as well as the backing they have from the US.
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Thanks. This was pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I was curious to see if there's anything to justify some of the people I know just completely ignoring what is going on there, or somehow deeming it necessary. In that surely they're not seeing this? Or not being shown it?

The person I know doesn't exactly post constant updates but she's obviously been quite pro Israel about it and coming from a Jewish background I'm thinking maybe she's just (unjustifiably) scared? I don't know but having known her for 7 or 8 years now she's typically very left-leaning and empathetic. I just think maybe because this feels more personal it's warped her mind a bit.
 
rotherham_red said:
When Gazans themselves are sharing live feeds of their suffering and the Israelis are sharing with glee their genocidal actions, this excuse doesn't wash, IMO.
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There is the accurate saying that the Gazan's are showing us what is happening while the Israeli's are telling us what is happening.
 
Solius said:
Thanks. This was pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I was curious to see if there's anything to justify some of the people I know just completely ignoring what is going on there, or somehow deeming it necessary. In that surely they're not seeing this? Or not being shown it?

The person I know doesn't exactly post constant updates but she's obviously been quite pro Israel about it and coming from a Jewish background I'm thinking maybe she's just (unjustifiably) scared? I don't know but having known her for 7 or 8 years now she's typically very left-leaning and empathetic. I just think maybe because this feels more personal it's warped her mind a bit.
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Yeah I suppose the unique aspect of this 'conflict' is that it doesn't have a typical left-right split you see with most issues. When it comes to Israel, particularly in the west, the level of absolution and excessive apologist sentiment seems to be shared on both sides of the political spectrum. Even with Israel itself you're seeing some quasi-fascist bile and hateful rhetoric being spouted from allegedly left-leaning politicians there. It truly is bizarre.

Without resorting to conspiracy tropes, there is the insinuation that to take a stance against Israel as a Western politician, particularly in the UK or US is tantamount to 'career suicide', where you'll be accused of anti-semitism and pro-terrorist sentiment if you simply don't default to the line of Israel is doing what is necessary to defend itself. Hence why you're likely only hearing one-sided 'analysis' or takes on whats unfolding on the ground. Though it must also be said that there have been huge numbers of Jewish protestors, academics and artists who have bravely condemned Israel's brutal actions and demanded a ceasefire, but their voices are seemingly silenced, or worse - conflated with that of supporting terrorism.
 
Solius said:
Thanks. This was pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I was curious to see if there's anything to justify some of the people I know just completely ignoring what is going on there, or somehow deeming it necessary. In that surely they're not seeing this? Or not being shown it?

The person I know doesn't exactly post constant updates but she's obviously been quite pro Israel about it and coming from a Jewish background I'm thinking maybe she's just (unjustifiably) scared? I don't know but having known her for 7 or 8 years now she's typically very left-leaning and empathetic. I just think maybe because this feels more personal it's warped her mind a bit.
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I'm starting to think there is no left or right in Israel. Or the UK for that matter. She is deeply ingrained into the Israeli mindset (note her being Jewish has nothing to do with anything). There are literally millions of Jewish people in the US and Europe holding protests against what Israel, US and UK are doing.
 
Solius said:
I was curious to see if there's anything to justify some of the people I know just completely ignoring what is going on there, or somehow deeming it necessary. In that surely they're not seeing this? Or not being shown it?

The person I know doesn't exactly post constant updates but she's obviously been quite pro Israel about it and coming from a Jewish background I'm thinking maybe she's just (unjustifiably) scared? I don't know but having known her for 7 or 8 years now she's typically very left-leaning and empathetic. I just think maybe because this feels more personal it's warped her mind a bit.
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I think it's genuinely very difficult to reconcile support for Israel (both conceptually and as it currently exists) with any kind of traditional leftist or even liberal values (a point made well here). For many, the way to reconcile them is to make up these type of narratives, where you can sort of 'discard' politics.
 
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hellhunter said:
Heavy backlash in German media as well. I hate it
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A third of the people canceled in Germany for pro-Palestine views have been Jewish. It seems like the German establishment still doesn't know how to deal with their own anti-Semitism. They believe unequivocal support for Israel absolves them of everything.

I still don't have a good read on what the German public thinks about all this. I saw a poll a while ago that most Germans think the military action in Gaza is unjustified. I've also heard about pro-Palestine people getting harassed in protests against the AFD. Maybe people are scared to express their opinions but difficult to know. Is the public split or mostly influenced by their media and politicians?
 
2mufc0 said:
There is the accurate saying that the Gazan's are showing us what is happening while the Israeli's are telling us what is happening.
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Absolutely. There's literally zero reason for the framing that we're currently seeing, other than the obvious...
 
Dumbstar said:
I'm starting to think there is no left or right in Israel. Or the UK for that matter. She is deeply ingrained into the Israeli mindset (note her being Jewish has nothing to do with anything). There are literally millions of Jewish people in the US and Europe holding protests against what Israel, US and UK are doing.
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That's a big exaggeration because it would mean at least half the Jewish population in the US and Europe are protesting which is obviously not true.
 


of the crossing points & lack of security due to military operations + collapse of civil order. Cease fire + lifting the siege to allow meaningful lifesaving aid + commercial supplies are long overdue.
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Idxomer said:
That's a big exaggeration because it would mean at least half the Jewish population in the US and Europe are protesting which is obviously not true.
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Really? I thought there would be more Jewish population in this two continents. Then hundreds of thousands?

In anecdotal videos (demo attendances, Pelosi/Biden conference slap downs, etc) the Jewish community are being really brave and forthright.
 
Dumbstar said:
Really? I thought there would be more Jewish population in this two continents. Then hundreds of thousands?

In anecdotal videos (demo attendances, Pelosi/Biden conference slap downs, etc) the Jewish community are being really brave and forthright.
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There's probably around 15 million Jews or so worldwide, less than half of whom live in Israel.
 
Idxomer said:
A third of the people canceled in Germany for pro-Palestine views have been Jewish. It seems like the German establishment still doesn't know how to deal with their own anti-Semitism. They believe unequivocal support for Israel absolves them of everything.

I still don't have a good read on what the German public thinks about all this. I saw a poll a while ago that most Germans think the military action in Gaza is unjustified. I've also heard about pro-Palestine people getting harassed in protests against the AFD. Maybe people are scared to express their opinions but difficult to know. Is the public split or mostly influenced by their media and politicians?
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It's a difficult topic for obvious reasons. Due to our past, people are really afraid to voice concerns against the state Israel. As a token of collective guilt, Israel can do no wrong and people are really quick with the antisemitism label when someone does indeed raise criticism. It's all a bad sad, we of all people should know where turning a blind eye can lead
 
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