Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

Kaush949 said:
I do agree with you that HAMAS is an enemy of Israel and Palestine.

Now, I have a few questions for you.

1. So, are you 100% confident that this operation's sole purpose is only to eliminate Hamas? There is no ulterior motive?

Yes

2. Are you confident that Israel has no underlying motive to drive civilians out and occupy the territory permanently?

Yes

3. If Yes to above, what is giving you this confidence considering the way in which Israel has been continuing to push settlements in West Bank?

N/A

4. How morally do you justify the expansion of settlements in West Bank?

I don't agree with it.

5. Are you convinced that the only one way to eliminate HAMAS is by flattening the entire region, killing 5% of the population and making the area unhabitable for any current residents?

Is there another way? I don't believe Hamas is interested in negotiation. They are extremists that want Israel destroyed.

6. If in a few months or year from now, Israel announces an official plan to build settlements in Gaza , how will that make you feel?

Wouldn't be supportive.

7. And last question - how many innocent palestinian lives are worth the life of 1 innocent jew? 1? 5? 100? Infinite? What's your line of thinking on this?

Hard to answer. All loss of life is tragic, whether Israeli or Palestinian. But imagine, you had a hostile neighbour who kidnapped your children in the night. Then the police told you the only way to reach them would involve innocent people dying. What is the cost you are willing to bear?


I would appreciate your honest, genuine response on these.
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Maticmaker said:
The reality is that the leadership of Hamas and the current Government in Israel are seeking mutual destruction. That's why no other government is willing to send its own people to die in order to try to separate warring factions.
The people of Palestine and the people of Israel have to rid themselves of their current leaders for there to be any hope for an end to the present situation, let alone moving towards a peaceful solution, can be attained.
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I think there's a bit of asymmetry to your argument. Hamas are clearly a bunch of fanatics who I'm sure would love to see the state of Israel being destroyed its in entirety, but lets be frank - that's simply impossible. The October 7th attacks are about as much damage as they can hope to inflict, and that was after Israel seemingly being unusually lax with security measures and warnings prior to the events. We're talking about a regional military superpower, backed by the world's strongest superpower, is armed with an arsenal of nukes and possesses sophisticated defence mechanisms like the iron dome. I suspect Hamas' actual goal was to sabotage normalisation efforts between Israel and neighbouring Arab states, which for the time being seems to have succeeded. Israel on the other hand are of course very capable of destroying the notion of Palestinian statehood, something which they've continuously boasted about and one that they're now publicly committing too. What makes them more nefarious is the fact the world's sole superpower is currently sponsoring and absolving them at every step, irrespective of any proverbial red lines they already have or will have crossed.

The other point to consider is Israel's atrocities have predated Hamas' existence. The Nakba ethnic cleansing happened over half a century ago and the descendents of those who've been forced out are condemned to a miserable existence, with no right to return. And since then Israel has continued to subjugate, humiliate and oppress Palestinians on a daily basis, not just in Gaza, but in the West Bank where Hamas have no real power, as well as continuing to build settlements. The frank truth is that Hamas are merely a symptom of the sheer injustices the Israelis have inflicted on the Palestinians. If they were to disappear off the face of the earth tomorrow, you'd see no concession from Israel regarding reaching a peaceful settlement, there'd be no cessations of settlements, and no appetite from the Israelis to allow the foundation of a Palestinian state. This was the case pre-Hamas, and it will certainly be the case in a post-Hamas scenario.

And then there's the question regarding Israel's cultural appetite for peace. While its easy to pinpoint Netanyahu as the culpable monster who's behind Israel's crimes against the Palestinians, if you were to gauge the sentiments of those who consider themselves to be leftists within Israeli society, you'd also hear equally distasteful takes, or at best a mere rejection of there being any notion of a Palestinian state.

Ultimately it comes down to one factor - the United States. So long as they continue to bail Israel out at every military, diplomatic and economical junction, Israel will continue its colonial aspirations within the territory, knowing that there would be no repercussions for continuing down that path. And thats regardless as to whether its Netanyahu or an Israeli Labour party cabinet at the helm, or whether Hamas continue to exist or not. All this conjecture about there being peace when Hamas puts down their weapons and Palestinians choose love instead of war is a known fallacy that's simply used as a convenient deflection from Israel's apologists to justify both their bloodlust in this conflict, as well as their adherence to the status quo of continued subjugation. The Palestinians tried the peaceful and secular approach in the past to no avail, hence why we have the likes of Hamas. The only way we're going to get peace is if Israel is sanctioned, isolated and treated as a rogue state until its serious about peace, declaring its borders and having a meaningful discussion about Palestinian statehood. Everything else is noise or deflection.
 
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Ekkie Thump said:
An incredibly powerful speech by Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) Secretary General Chris Lockyear to the UN security council:



Cliff quotes:
  • Just 48 hours ago, as a family sat around their kitchen table in a house sheltering MSF staff and their families in Khan Younis, a 120mm tank shell exploded through the walls, igniting a fire, and killing two people and severely burning six others. Five of the six injured are women and children.
  • We took every precaution to protect the 64 humanitarian staff and family members from such an attack...This morning...I am watching videos of rescue teams removing the charred bodies from the rubble.
  • Israeli forces have attacked our convoys, detained our staff, bulldozed our vehicles and hospitals have been bombed and raided.
  • We have watched the systematic obliteration of a health system we have supported for decades. We have watched our patients and colleagues be killed and maimed.
  • This situation is the culmination of a war Israel is waging on the entire population of the Gaza strip - a war of collective punishment, a war without rules, a war at all costs.
  • The laws and the principles we collectively depend on to enable humanitarian assistance are now eroded to the point of becoming meaningless.
  • The humanitarian response in Gaza today is an illusion—a convenient illusion that perpetuates a narrative that this war is being waged in line with international laws.
  • There is no health system to speak of left in Gaza. Israel’s military has dismantled hospital after hospital. What remains is so little in the face of such carnage. It is preposterous.
  • Our patients have catastrophic injuries, amputations, crushed limbs, and severe burns. They need sophisticated care. They need long and intensive rehabilitation.
  • Medics cannot treat these injuries on a battlefield or in the ashes of destroyed hospitals.
  • Surgeons have had no choice but to carry out amputations without anaesthesia, on children.
  • Women in labour cannot reach functional delivery rooms. They are giving birth in plastic tents and public buildings.
  • Medical teams have added a new acronym to their vocabulary: WCNSF— wounded child, no surviving family.
  • The people of Gaza need a ceasefire not when “practicable,” but now. They need a sustained ceasefire, not a “temporary period of calm.” Anything short of this is gross negligence.
  • Two days ago, MSF staff and families were attacked and died in a place they were told would be protected. Today our staff are back at work, risking their lives once again for their patients. What are you willing to risk? We demand the protections promised under International Humanitarian Law.
Madam President, excellencies, colleagues,

As I speak, more than 1.5 million people are trapped in Rafah. People violently forced to this strip of land in southern Gaza are bearing the brunt of Israel’s military campaign.

We live in fear of a ground invasion.

Our fears are rooted in experience. Just 48 hours ago, as a family sat around their kitchen table in a house sheltering MSF staff and their families in Khan Younis, a 120mm tank shell exploded through the walls, igniting a fire, and killing two people and severely burning six others. Five of the six injured are women and children. We took every precaution to protect the 64 humanitarian staff and family members from such an attack by notifying warring parties of the location and clearly marking the building with an MSF flag. Despite our precautions, our building was struck not only by a tank shell but by intense gunfire. Some were trapped in the burning building while active shooting delayed ambulances from reaching them. This morning, I am looking at photos that show the catastrophic extent of the damage and I am watching videos of rescue teams removing the charred bodies from the rubble.

This is all too familiar—Israeli forces have attacked our convoys, detained our staff, and bulldozed our vehicles, and hospitals have been bombed and raided. Now, for a second time, one of our staff shelters has been hit. This pattern of attacks is either intentional or indicative of reckless incompetence.

Our colleagues in Gaza are fearful that, as I speak to you today, they will be punished tomorrow.

Madame President, every day we witness unimaginable horror.

We, like so many, were horrified by Hamas’ massacre in Israel on 7 October, and we are horrified by Israel’s response. We feel the anguish of families whose loved ones were taken hostage on 7 October. We feel the anguish of the families of those arbitrarily detained from Gaza and the West Bank.

As humanitarians, we are appalled by violence against civilians.

This death, destruction, and forced displacement are the result of military and political choices that blatantly disregard civilian lives.

These choices could have been—and still can be—made very differently.

For 138 days, we witnessed the unimaginable suffering of the people of Gaza.

For 138 days, we have done everything we can to enact a meaningful humanitarian response.

For 138 days, we have watched the systematic obliteration of a health system we have supported for decades. We have watched our patients and colleagues be killed and maimed.

This situation is the culmination of a war Israel is waging on the entire population of the Gaza strip—
a war of collective punishment,
a war without rules,
a war at all costs.

The laws and the principles we collectively depend on to enable humanitarian assistance are now eroded to the point of becoming meaningless.


Madam President, the humanitarian response in Gaza today is an illusion—a convenient illusion that perpetuates a narrative that this war is being waged in line with international laws.

Calls for more humanitarian assistance have echoed across this Chamber.

Yet in Gaza we have less and less each day—less space, less medicine, less food, less water, less safety.

We no longer speak of a humanitarian scale-up; we speak of how to survive even without the bare minimum.

Today in Gaza, efforts to provide assistance are haphazard, opportunistic, and entirely inadequate.

How can we deliver life-saving aid in an environment where the distinction between civilians and combatants is disregarded?

How can we sustain any type of response when medical workers are being targeted, attacked, and vilified for assisting the wounded?

Madam President, attacks on health care are attacks on humanity.

There is no health system to speak of left in Gaza. Israel’s military has dismantled hospital after hospital. What remains is so little in the face of such carnage. It is preposterous.

The excuse given is that medical facilities have been used for military purposes, yet we have seen zero independently verified evidence of this.

In exceptional circumstances where a hospital loses its protected status, any attack must follow the principles of proportionality and precaution.

Instead of adherence to international law, we see the systematic disabling of hospitals. This has left the entire medical system inoperable.

Since 7 October, we have been forced to evacuate nine different health facilities.

One week ago, Nasser Hospital was raided. Medical staff were forced to leave despite repeated assurances that they could stay and continue caring for patients.

These indiscriminate attacks, as well as the types of weapons and munitions used in densely populated areas, have killed tens of thousands and maimed thousands more.

Our patients have catastrophic injuries, amputations, crushed limbs, and severe burns. They need sophisticated care. They need long and intensive rehabilitation.

Medics cannot treat these injuries on a battlefield or in the ashes of destroyed hospitals.

There are not enough hospital beds, not enough medications, and not enough supplies.

Surgeons have had no choice but to carry out amputations without anaesthesia, on children.

Our surgeons are running out of basic gauze to stop their patients from bleeding out. They use it once, squeeze out the blood, wash it, sterilize it, and reuse it for the next patient.

The humanitarian crisis in Gaza has left pregnant women without medical care for months. Women in labour cannot reach functional delivery rooms. They are giving birth in plastic tents and public buildings.

Medical teams have added a new acronym to their vocabulary: WCNSF— wounded child, no surviving family.

Children who survive this war will not only bear the visible wounds of traumatic injuries but the invisible ones, too—those of repeated displacement, constant fear, and witnessing family members literally dismembered before their eyes. These psychological injuries have led children as young as five to tell us they would prefer to die.

The dangers for medical staff are enormous. On a daily basis, we are making the choice to continue working, despite the increasing risks.

We are scared. Our teams are beyond exhausted.


Madam President, this must stop.

We, along with the world, are closely watching how this Council and its members have approached the conflict in Gaza.

Meeting after meeting, resolution after resolution, this body has failed to effectively address this conflict. We have watched members of this Council deliberate and delay while civilians die.

We are appalled by the willingness of the United States to use its powers as a permanent Council member to obstruct efforts to adopt the most evident of resolutions: one demanding an immediate and sustained ceasefire.

Three times this Council has had an opportunity to vote for the ceasefire that is so desperately needed and three times the United States has used its veto power, most recently this Tuesday.

A new draft resolution by the United States ostensibly calls for a ceasefire. However, this is misleading at best.

This Council should reject any resolution that further hampers humanitarian efforts on the ground and leads this Council to tacitly endorse the continued violence and mass atrocities in Gaza.

The people of Gaza need a ceasefire not when “practicable,” but now. They need a sustained ceasefire, not a “temporary period of calm.” Anything short of this is gross negligence.

The protection of civilians in Gaza cannot be contingent on resolutions from this Council which instrumentalize humanitarianism to blur political objectives.

The protection of civilians, of civilian infrastructure, of health workers and health facilities, falls first and foremost on the parties to the conflict.

But it is also a collective responsibility—a responsibility which rests with this Council and its individual members, as parties to the Geneva Conventions.

The consequences of casting international humanitarian law to the wind will reverberate well beyond Gaza.

It will be an enduring burden on our collective conscience.

This is not just political inaction—it has become political complicity.

Two days ago, MSF staff and families were attacked and died in a place they were told would be protected.

Today our staff are back at work, risking their lives once again for their patients.

What are you willing to risk?

We demand the protections promised under International Humanitarian Law.

We demand a ceasefire from both parties.

We demand the space to turn the illusion of aid into meaningful assistance.

What will you do to make this possible?

Thank you, Madam President.
https://www.msf.org/msf-briefing-gaza-un-security-council
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I've been donating to MSF for over 20 years now, one of only two charities I donate to. If they're deliberately targeting MSF then there are no rules anymore.
 
Giggsyking said:
Wow, you beyond imagination. Are you for real?

There tens of differences between the two cases, any human being with 2 braincells know that.

But to put the obvious one, because they already took 6 million refugees that Israel deny them the right to return home for 75 years

How about adressing the 6m refugees before you make a new wave, I can not believe I need to explain this.
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and the hundred's of thousands of refugees from Crimea who aren't able to return home.
 
God damn, I never thought fearless would have competition in the caf, but here we are...
 
Kaos said:
I think there's a bit of asymmetry to your argument.
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Only in your mind set. The Arab nations in 1948 threatened to drive the Jewish nation into the sea, when the State of Israel was first recognised. Over the decades since multiple attempts by Egypt, Syria and the other surrounding Arab nations resulted in a number of wars which Israel not only survived, but grew stronger as a result. It's true that since then the occupation of the West Bank, among other illegal actions by Israel, reduced the wider support for these actions and presented the case to the World for Palestine to have its own recognised State, i.e. the two-state solution.

The only way a two-state solution will be established is when 'the drive them into the sea' * rhetoric is dropped by both sides. Also when both sides choose leaders who genuinely seek a fair peace. That seems like a pipe dream right now
[* note for @Pexbo and @Berbasbullet... quotations marks and italics.. enjoy ;)]
 
gfactor86 said:
and the hundred's of thousands of refugees from Crimea who aren't able to return home.
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Those refugees are currently waging a war to retake their lost territories including Crimea. Heavily supported by NATO.

Should NATO provide the same support to the Palestinians to retake their lost territory?
 
The British Parliament, effectually (not by intent), has created a disgraceful meta-event. The topic is the rowdiness or general discontent within the HoC rather than the HoC condemning the Israeli invasion (as it continues to mount). That's all the news had to say (speaker, parties, internal row). Just a method, if you ask me, by some, though by no means all, in media and other circles, of avoiding the condemnation which was/is necessary.
 
Maticmaker said:
Only in your mind set. The Arab nations in 1948 threatened to drive the Jewish nation into the sea, when the State of Israel was first recognised. Over the decades since multiple attempts by Egypt, Syria and the other surrounding Arab nations resulted in a number of wars which Israel not only survived, but grew stronger as a result. It's true that since then the occupation of the West Bank, among other illegal actions by Israel, reduced the wider support for these actions and presented the case to the World for Palestine to have its own recognised State, i.e. the two-state solution.

The only way a two-state solution will be established is when 'the drive them into the sea' * rhetoric is dropped by both sides. Also when both sides choose leaders who genuinely seek a fair peace. That seems like a pipe dream right now
[* note for @Pexbo and @Berbasbullet... quotations marks and italics.. enjoy ;)]
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Because there was no Jewish nation before roughly that precise date. How would you respond, as a tribal system, or series of tribes, if another tribe declared that your house, and land that it is/was on, is now no longer fit for you and your people to live in (just taking it). The European legacy is that it killed six million Jews and then didn't give much of a feck if the Jewish people of Israel killed that same number of Arabs and "Blacks" (post-colonialism - more EU direct, or US, here, than Israel, in Africa, of course).

Every nation ever invaded has declared they would, by hook or crook, drive the colonizing nation out. That is just simple empirical history. Not a fan of the whole murderous driving people out thing, but you cannot deny the sequence which leads to this moment and still malingers.
 
maniak said:
God damn, I never thought fearless would have competition in the caf, but here we are...
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I know, I was fuming when I read that reply earlier and wrote a pretty lengthy response but didn't post it because what's the fecking point? It was just repeating what myself and many others have said time and time again. Many others in a far more articulate and informative manner than I could wish to as well.


The simple fact he (and others) still continue to bang on and on about it starting on October 7th and making out Israel are the victims whilst not ever accepting or addressing the fact Israel have stolen land and kidnapped, murdered and held prisoners for decades just makes any attempt at reasoning absolutely futile. Couple that with still calling this a war when only one side is fighting with advanced weapons, superior numbers and the backing of western countries money and arms supplies and the disgusting amount of war crimes committed by that side.

Much of it has been caught on film and uploaded to social media by a sick and twisted force acting with complete impunity all the while land is still being stolen and Gaza lies in ruins with a hugely disproportionate enemy to civilian casualty rate, millions homeless and with one of the worse humanitarian crisis on the planet. And yet Israel are still the victims?


It's beyond belief. It really is. The lack of empathy and compassion left me cold and feeling utterly sick.
 
Kaos said:
I think there's a bit of asymmetry to your argument. Hamas are clearly a bunch of fanatics who I'm sure would love to see the state of Israel being destroyed its in entirety, but lets be frank - that's simply impossible. The October 7th attacks are about as much damage as they can hope to inflict, and that was after Israel seemingly being unusually lax with security measures and warnings prior to the events. We're talking about a regional military superpower, backed by the world's strongest superpower, is armed with an arsenal of nukes and possesses sophisticated defence mechanisms like the iron dome. I suspect Hamas' actual goal was to sabotage normalisation efforts between Israel and neighbouring Arab states, which for the time being seems to have succeeded. Israel on the other hand are of course very capable of destroying the notion of Palestinian statehood, something which they've continuously boasted about and one that they're now publicly committing too. What makes them more nefarious is the fact the world's sole superpower is currently sponsoring and absolving them at every step, irrespective of any proverbial red lines they already have or will have crossed.

The other point to consider is Israel's atrocities have predated Hamas' existence. The Nakba ethnic cleansing happened over half a century ago and the descendents of those who've been forced out are condemned to a miserable existence, with no right to return. And since then Israel has continued to subjugate, humiliate and oppress Palestinians on a daily basis, not just in Gaza, but in the West Bank where Hamas have no real power, as well as continuing to build settlements. The frank truth is that Hamas are merely a symptom of the sheer injustices the Israelis have inflicted on the Palestinians. If they were to disappear off the face of the earth tomorrow, you'd see no concession from Israel regarding reaching a peaceful settlement, there'd be no cessations of settlements, and no appetite from the Israelis to allow the foundation of a Palestinian state. This was the case pre-Hamas, and it will certainly be the case in a post-Hamas scenario.

And then there's the question regarding Israel's cultural appetite for peace. While its easy to pinpoint Netanyahu as the culpable monster who's behind Israel's crimes against the Palestinians, if you were to gauge the sentiments of those who consider themselves to be leftists within Israeli society, you'd also hear equally distasteful takes, or at best a mere rejection of there being any notion of a Palestinian state.

Ultimately it comes down to one factor - the United States. So long as they continue to bail Israel out at every military, diplomatic and economical junction, Israel will continue its colonial aspirations within the territory, knowing that there would be no repercussions for continuing down that path. And thats regardless as to whether its Netanyahu or an Israeli Labour party cabinet at the helm, or whether Hamas continue to exist or not. All this conjecture about there being peace when Hamas puts down their weapons and Palestinians choose love instead of war is a known fallacy that's simply used as a convenient deflection from Israel's apologists to justify both their bloodlust in this conflict, as well as their adherence to the status quo of continued subjugation. The Palestinians tried the peaceful and secular approach in the past to no avail, hence why we have the likes of Hamas. The only way we're going to get peace is if Israel is sanctioned, isolated and treated as a rogue state until its serious about peace, declaring its borders and having a meaningful discussion about Palestinian statehood. Everything else is noise or deflection.
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Superb post.
 
VorZakone said:
Ofcourse they aren't responsible for Israel's actions.

But that's not quite the crux of the discussion for me. It's about to which extent they're still invested in the Palestinian cause and by buying Israeli defence products or normalizing the relationship, it gives the impression that they're giving Palestinians the cold shoulder. The status quo seemed tolerable to them and in that status quo the Palestinians were still suffering.

This is not even really about moral lecturing. It's about observing to what extent the Palestinian cause is still important to the regional governments.

And how Palestinian leaders interpret this is an interesting follow-up question.
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You have to understand that the Arab countries are in no position to dictate the fate of the region. Do you think that if they had the means, they wouldn't weigh in as much as they can in favor of Palestine? The popularity points they'd win would be invaluable for them.

The thing is that they can't. They tried from 1948 to 1973 and failed miserably. The most active and powerful Arab proponents have been either bought off (Egypt and Jordan) or totally dismantled (Iraq and Syria) ever since. From an Arab state point of view, actively supporting the Palestinian cause is biting more than you can chew, an attitude that can only lead to defeat, internal turmoil, and then downfall.

You also must separate the Arab autocrats from their populations, as they are both disconnected from each other. The Arab dictators play a high risk balancing act for their own survival, juggling between international constraints and domestic demands. They pay the minimum lip service to not be overthrown and that's it. Once you come to grasp with this, it becomes easier to see the bigger picture.

To keep it simple:

- Arab populations are overwhelmingly behind the Palestinian cause, no matter what. The Palestinians know this.

- Arab authocrats are only in favor if it poses no immediate danger and serves their interests of the moment. The Palestinians know this.

- Both are equally powerless to change the course of the events anyways. The Palestinians know this.


VorZakone said:
Blinken Says New Israeli Settlements in West Bank Are Illegal, Reversing a Trump Policy


https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/23/world/middleeast/blinken-israel-west-bank-settlements.html
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"Mr. Blinken said he was disappointed with the announcement from Israel’s finance minister of plans for thousands of new residences in Palestinian territories."

:lol: Whatever floats your boat, buddy. I love the new settlements are illegal.

Such thoughtful, much American.
 
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RedTiger said:
I've been donating to MSF for over 20 years now, one of only two charities I donate to. If they're deliberately targeting MSF then there are no rules anymore.
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Not directly related to MSF to which I also regularly donate for years, but here's the report about the medical situation in Gaza from a Canadian-Palestinian doctor. A tough watch but worth hearing. It gives to "babies in incubators" a whole new meaning.

 
That_Bloke said:
You have to understand that the Arab countries are in no position to dictate the fate of the region. Do you think that if they had the means, they wouldn't weigh in as much as they can in favor of Palestine? The popularity points they'd win would be invaluable for them.

The thing is that they can't. They tried from 1948 to 1973 and failed miserably. The most active and powerful Arab proponents have been either bought off (Egypt and Jordan) or totally dismantled (Iraq and Syria) ever since. From an Arab state point of view, actively supporting the Palestinian cause is biting more than you can chew, an attitude that can only lead to defeat, internal turmoil, and then downfall.

You also must separate the Arab autocrats from their populations, as they are both disconnected from each other. The Arab dictators play a high risk balancing act for their own survival, juggling between international constraints and domestic demands. They pay the minimum lip service to not be overthrown and that's it. Once you come to grasp with this, it becomes easier to see the bigger picture.

To keep it simple:

- Arab populations are overwhelmingly behind the Palestinian cause, no matter what. The Palestinians know this.

- Arab authocrats are only in favor if it poses no immediate danger and serves their interests of the moment. The Palestinians know this.

- Both are equally powerless to change the course of the events anyways. The Palestinians know this.




"Mr. Blinken said he was disappointed with the announcement from Israel’s finance minister of plans for thousands of new residences in Palestinian territories."

:lol: Whatever floats your boat, buddy. I love the new settlements are illegal.

Such thoughtful, much American.
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Look, the 2nd bulletpoint (bolded) is the crux.

It's pointless to keep telling me that they can't dictate the fate of the region as I'm quite confident I never argued that anyway.
 
VorZakone said:
Look, the 2nd bulletpoint (bolded) is the crux.

It's pointless to keep telling me that they can't dictate the fate of the region as I'm quite confident I never argued that anyway.
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Then allow me to ask you this simple question:

What do you realistically expect them to do?
 
That_Bloke said:
Then allow me to ask you this simple question:

What do you realistically expect them to do?
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Throughout the last pages I've been saying that they don't have the power to force a solution for the Palestinians. This question would be valid if I was arguing that they can but don't. Then the onus would be on me to explain how.

For me, the question is: could they have chosen not to engage Israel on several subjects such as normalization and arms deals? Or is this something they had to do? And how does that connect with the argument some experts make that October 7th's goal was to put the Palestinian cause back on the map.
 
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Palestinian arrests in occupied West Bank rise to 7,210

Israeli forces have arrested at least 22 Palestinians overnight in the occupied West Bank, including a journalist as well as two children, according to the Palestinian Prisoner’s Society.
 
neverdie said:
Because there was no Jewish nation before roughly that precise date.
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Think you mean there was no State of Israel. The Jewish nation has existed thousands of years, even prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, roughly 2000 years ago.
 
Maticmaker said:
Think you mean there was no State of Israel. The Jewish nation has existed thousands of years, even prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, roughly 2000 years ago.
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He means a Jewish state. Although there is a Jewish autonomous federal subject in Russia called the Jewish Autonomous Oblast larger in size than Israel itself.
 
GHE2_6pXQAAAHfw


Do anybody here still think western media and journalism is honest and decent?

Anat Shcwartz. This is one of the authors of the mass rape article in the NYT, liking a post calling for turning Gaza into a slaughter house.

https://www.nytimes.com/by/anat-schwartz
 
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Part of what makes me enthusiastic about engaging in the question of Zionism is that it’s one of the few places where people are forced to grapple squarely with their attitudes towards liberalism, equality, ethnonationalism, and nationalism generally. And they usually just don’t have anything like a coherent synthesis of their various views on this stuff. They

1) Are fans of liberalism (equal rights for all people in a diverse nation state) generally

2) Would be aghast at the idea of the United States adopting an official religion (like Christianity) or an official ethnic identity (European or similar), even if those were purely symbolic statuses

3) Somehow find a way to believe those things along with ardent support for the explicitly ethnonationalist, state-religion-codifying reality of the modern state of Israel

I ask people basic questions to try and suss this stuff out and they can’t do it. Is it the United States alone that should aspire to be a liberal democratic country? If not, which countries should or should not have official ethnic and religious designations? What decides when liberalism is required and when an ethnostate is permissible? Does Israel alone get a carveout? What are the rules here?

You can’t say “I believe in multiculturalism and that everyone should be equal, but also it’s natural and healthy for states to have explicit ethnic and religious identities.” Those are mutually incompatible; you must choose. And humanity has to choose, whether it will truly pursue the cosmopolitanism that’s a prerequisite for genuine equality or will fall back into old ethnic hatreds that ensure perpetual conflict and the serial oppression of minority groups. You genuinely cannot have this one both ways, guys.
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From Freddie De Boer. Thought it was a decent passage.
 
Giggsyking said:
GHE2_6pXQAAAHfw


Do anybody here still think western media and journalism is honest and decent?

Anat Shcwartz. This is one of the authors of the mass rape article in the NYT, liking a post calling for turning Gaza into a slaughter house.

https://www.nytimes.com/by/anat-schwartz
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None of that is the least bit surprising. That's the reality Palestinians have faced for decades. Their subjugation is usually whitewashed in the West by their oppressors and their supporters in every way possible.

 


In Israel politicians are extreme right, far right, right, moderately right. No moderate, No left.
 
Giggsyking said:


In Israel politicians are extreme right, far right, right, moderately right. No moderate, No left.
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Not acceptable to the majority of Israelis....... Maybe they should think back to the 1940's then and have a little think about how their relatives felt when the shoe was on the other foot.

I visited the Terror museum in Budapest last year and it was fecking harrowing to say the least. The videos shown throughout the museum are very difficult to watch and for someone who has only ever known about the war through school, documentaries and films and some brief historical reading it hit hard seeing it in front of your face.

We then went and saw the shoes on the Danube which again has a tough history behind the sculptures. The city Is full of reminders, stories and statues that tell the story of the suffering during the war and especially the siege of Budapest. Of course that's just one city out of many where similar horrors took place.

It truly baffles me how a people who suffered such horrific events and one of the worst crimes in human history can now turn a blind eye and not relate to the Palestinians. It's like the kid who was bullied at school who then went on to become the bully himself.
 
Giggsyking said:


In Israel politicians are extreme right, far right, right, moderately right. No moderate, No left.
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Extremely concerning. With Ukraine politicians were quick to deny the geopolitics of it all and pushed it being a moral action about freedom. The choice now really is moral action or geopolitics, if they let Israel continue it just confirms the latter.

I don't think it'll stop with Palestine because the arguments Israel are making about total security demand action against Iran amongst others.
 
Giggsyking said:
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langster said:
Not acceptable to the majority of Israelis....... Maybe they should think back to the 1940's then and have a little think about how their relatives felt when the shoe was on the other foot
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I know "every accusation is a confession" is almost trite at this point... but how many times have we heard, even in this thread, the tired point of "oh you don't want to accept Israel's right to exist?!?"
 
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