Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

I'm not a strong supporter of everything that Israel does, I don't like the present government, I think Bibi is now acting in a way that is detrimental to longer term Israeli interests.

I'm not happy that there are hundreds of kids in Israeli jails, administrative detention is wrong. However are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

Sorry, but you sound like your average leftist politician going over his prepared talking points.

Israel kills Palestinian hostages/captives and even their own without any threats. The settler groups are terrorists that made a Palestinian state impossible. The state that has been subjugating Palestinians for decades isn't morally preferable to anyone along with their backers in Washington. Hamas is a symptom, an ugly one but a symptom all the same. The occupation, the oppression, and the humiliation Palestinians face daily are the real disease that always need to be addressed first. You can also add genocide and ethnic cleansing to the things they also face.
 


These are the ones they just admitted. There's at least one killed that has been gassed by the IOF, I haven't seen anything in the western MSM mentioning that. Can you imagine this headline "The IDF gassed one of the hostages".
 


No respect to these publications. They twist even headlines and titles. It of course will not pass on the informed, but most people are uninformed and will understand one thing from this headline.
 
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Given that what has been reported has been some of the most harrowing scales of brutality and suffering imaginable, that kind of statement makes me nauseous with the fear of how much worse it could possibly be. Whenever the bombardments end, I imagine international journalists will be prevented from entering Gaza for a lengthily period of time.
 


No respect to these publications. They twist even headlines and titles. It if course will pass on the informed, but most people are uninformed and will understand one thing from this headline.


:lol: I was thinking about that earlier. 'Arab-backed.' That's literally just racism.
 
Israel is one of the most water scarce countries in the world, in response to your statement about Jordan.


How did Israel, a country that is more than half desert, frequently hit with drought, and historically cursed by chronic water shortages, become a nation that now produces 20 percent more water than it needs?

Water demand from Israel’s rapidly growing population outpaced the supply and natural replenishment of potable water so much that by 2015, the gap between demand and available natural water supplies reached 1 billion cubic meters (BCM).”

but Israel is obligated to supply water to Palestine, and not Jordan.
Why?
Why hasn’t any of Palestines other neighbors stepped in- I’m asking sincerely.

I’ve heard the excuses that Israel have slowed down their ability to build, etc, but bombs were created?

Israel are the ones controlling the border. There are no portals that allow you to teleport goods from Jordan to Gaza without Israel's permission.
 
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IHowever are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.
The Israelis had killed over 300 West Bank Palestinians prior to Oct 7th in 2023 alone. They've got thousands in detention, majority being held without charge.

It's literally no different to Hamas, but your 'moral preference' lies with Israeli settlers. Maybe you're just racist, and you find it morally acceptable when Europeans kill Arabs as opposed to Arabs killing Europeans?
 
The Israelis had killed over 300 West Bank Palestinians prior to Oct 7th in 2023 alone. They've got thousands in detention, majority being held without charge.

It's literally no different to Hamas, but your 'moral preference' lies with Israeli settlers. Maybe you're just racist, and you find it morally acceptable when Europeans kill Arabs as opposed to Arabs killing Europeans?

Or simply ill informed. He doesn't have to be racist, that's a step too far mate.
 


60% of Israeli Jews believe that the IDF is too lenient to Gaza and 35% believe, like she seems to, that the IDF is using the correct amount of firepower. What you are seeing in this tweet is the moderate centre-left of Israel.
 


60% of Israeli Jews believe that the IDF is too lenient to Gaza and 35% believe, like she seems to, that the IDF is using the correct amount of firepower. What you are seeing in this tweet is the moderate centre-left of Israel.

Vomiting emoji.
 
Israel is one of the most water scarce countries in the world, in response to your statement about Jordan.


How did Israel, a country that is more than half desert, frequently hit with drought, and historically cursed by chronic water shortages, become a nation that now produces 20 percent more water than it needs?

Water demand from Israel’s rapidly growing population outpaced the supply and natural replenishment of potable water so much that by 2015, the gap between demand and available natural water supplies reached 1 billion cubic meters (BCM).”

but Israel is obligated to supply water to Palestine, and not Jordan.
Why? Why hasn’t any of Palestines other neighbors stepped in- I’m asking sincerely.

I’ve heard the excuses that Israel have slowed down their ability to build, etc, but bombs were created?

This is gonna be a bit long, but I wanted to give you a sincere answer.

It's primarily a matter of geography and power but also Israel has done a very good job. The main way Israel overcame water shortages was through the admirable use of desalination plants which means that currently up to 75% of its water comes directly from the Mediterranean. The rest comes from exploitation of the coastal aquifer, mountain aquifers and the River Jordan. As anyone can see from looking at a map the West Bank and Jordan don't have the same kind of access to the sea as Israel. This means that they are almost entirely dependent on water from the River Jordan, tributary rivers and groundwater sources like aquifers. These are already terribly scant supplies but unfortunately for them geography has also dictated the secondary effect that Israel can control the lion's share of these resources too - the Jordan River via the Sea of Galilee, the aquifers* because while the majority of their waters come from rain on the West Bank, they collect underground on Israeli territory.

What does all this mean? Well, for Jordan a simple lack of resources means that it can only supply its citizens with 61 cubic metres of fresh water per year. The internationally recognised absolute water poverty line is 500 cubic meters per year. Jordan would need to expand its own resources by more than 800% just to meet the international minimum. If you avail yourself of the figures I'm sure you can appreciate how ridiculous it would be to demand that such a water scarce country provide water externally. The resources just aren't there.

If we turn to the West Bank access to water is even more restricted. Israel prevents Palestinians from having virtually any access to the River Jordan at all. Meanwhile its aquifers are entirely under the ownership of Mekorot - Israel's national water company. This is where geography and power become married. West Bank Palestinians, via Military Orders 158 and 92 have become increasingly restricted from digging wells to access the mountain aquifers collecting beneath them; geography then dictates that these waters run off and are collected beneath Israeli lands. Mekorot is then permitted to sell this water back to the Palestinians but only at a rate decided by the Israeli government. This results in a situation whereby 80% of the aquifer's water is replenished by rain falling on the West Bank (PDF. Pg 4 paragraph 1), but over 80% of that water is owned and used by Israel itself (PDF. Pg 9 paragraph 3).

Finally we get to the Gaza strip where water scarcity meets its height. Its only immediate sources of water are the Mediterranean, the coastal aquifer and the Wadi Gaza. The coastal aquifer is shared with Israel and the northern Sinai (Egypt) and each competes with the other for its use. Overuse of this aquifer means that it cannot replenish fast enough and the southern portion (ie that under Gaza) is now unusable for drinking water and almost unsuitable for irrigation. As for the Wadi Gaza, that relies on headwaters that flow from within Israel and Israel uses much of this water to irrigate the Negev before it can enter Gaza itself. If the aquifer is unusable and the only river runs dry the only things left are desalination plants and imports. The construction of desalination plants are governed by the aforementioned Israeli Military Orders and all imports are controlled by Israel. Gaza has built some desalination plants, but they require electricity. This electricity is also largely controlled by Israel or requires the use of imported fuel - which Israel also controls.

So your final question - why don't other Palestinian neighbours provide water and why should it be Israel's responsibility has, for me, three answers. Firstly, these countries don't provide water because they cannot even provide for themselves. Secondly Israel and Palestine share many of the same water resources, but Israel controls them and is therefore somewhat responsible for Palestinian water scarcity while, alone in the region, retaining a surfeit of water it can export. Thirdly, because it is Israel's will that they do not. Having power over Palestine's borders means they have final say on what can and cannot be imported. Retaining control of Palestine's water supply confers upon them a very potent instrument of coercion, an excellent weapon to have in times of strife and violence and one that I don't think Israel would be happy to relinquish.

*Not Jordan's, only the West Bank.
 
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I'm not a strong supporter of everything that Israel does, I don't like the present government, I think Bibi is now acting in a way that is detrimental to longer term Israeli interests.

I'm not happy that there are hundreds of kids in Israeli jails, administrative detention is wrong. However are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

The peace won't come about until Israel stops trying to wipe Palestine off the map, which has been occurring since 1948 (ie long before Hamas existed).

I do not think it is possible to categorize Israel's government as morally preferable to Hamas without having an underlying view that Arab lives are of less import than Israeli lives.

As for the threatening to kill kids...Israel does more than threaten.

I appreciate where you're coming from, but where you're coming from is factually absurd. Israel is not clearly flawed, Israel is prosecuting the most brutal campaign of occupation and ethnic cleansing that exists in the world today (although there are a couple rivals in fairness).

The destruction of Hamas isn't in the interest of Palestinians so long as Israel continues it's actual destruction of Palestinians.
 
GG3-snXb0AAcBfx


It was hit a couple of weeks ago.
 


@2cents do they see it in their interests to increase anti-Semitism worldwide? They seem to be going out of their way (this+ all the stars of David in the Gazan ruins) to make the association between the religion anf murderous violence as prominent as possible, somewhat like ISIS.
 


As long it is a democratic decision, no problem then. The Palestanians can not whine about the result.
 


@2cents do they see it in their interests to increase anti-Semitism worldwide? They seem to be going out of their way (this+ all the stars of David in the Gazan ruins) to make the association between the religion anf murderous violence as prominent as possible, somewhat like ISIS.


I don’t think it’s calculated to do so. I don’t know much about her specifically but Israelis who engage in that kind of rhetoric tend to believe that worldwide antisemitism (as they understand it) is the status quo whatever Israel’s actions, and that in the context of the Middle East mass displays of Israeli power/force/“strength” are the only real means to counter its effects. Particularly so when Israel has just been made to look incredibly weak and dumb.
 


@2cents do they see it in their interests to increase anti-Semitism worldwide? They seem to be going out of their way (this+ all the stars of David in the Gazan ruins) to make the association between the religion anf murderous violence as prominent as possible, somewhat like ISIS.


I think this is just what she is, not different from her fellow terrorists in the Netanyahu government.

"Golan made a political name for herself by denouncing African refugees in Israel, calling them “Muslim infiltrators”, criminals and rapists. She said many have Aids, suggested they were spreading HIV by working as waiters, and demanded they be expelled from the country.

“If I am racist for wanting to defend my country and for wanting to protect my basic rights and security, then I’m a proud racist,” she said at a political rally in 2013 as a member of the far-right Jewish Power party, a descendent of the Kach party that was outlawed under Israeli anti-terrorism laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/20/may-golan-israel-new-york-consular-role
 
I don’t think it’s calculated to do so. I don’t know much about her specifically but Israelis who engage in that kind of rhetoric tend to believe that worldwide antisemitism (as they understand it) is the status quo whatever Israel’s actions, and that in the context of the Middle East mass displays of Israeli power/force/“strength” are the only real means to counter its effects. Particularly so when Israel has just been made to look incredibly weak and dumb.

You're giving her too much credit.

Her ability to think is limited to racism, hatred towards anyone who isn't jewish/is jewish but not on her political side, whatever her base wants to hear and serving Netanyahu.