Israel - Palestine Discussion

gfactor86 said:
My point is, you think Hamas has done anything remotely useful with the aid money? Anything to benefit Palestinians?
Or just some missiles to fire indiscriminately at Israel every day?

if the other ME countries had given an actual feck about the Palestinians they could have built something in Gaza after Israel withdrew from the area in 2005
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Have they displaced, bombed and starved them using aid money? Israel has. You're such a disingenuous poster, with your strawman arguments. No amount of slaughter will change your mind. You will watch Gaza being wiped off the map, just shrug your shoulders and say: "Blame Hamas."
 
gfactor86 said:
My point is, you think Hamas has done anything remotely useful with the aid money? Anything to benefit Palestinians?
Or just some missiles to fire indiscriminately at Israel every day?

if the other ME countries had given an actual feck about the Palestinians they could have built something in Gaza after Israel withdrew from the area in 2005
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You keep making points that are totally removed from reality. Gaza is literally under the control of IDF, they are literally in charge of the infrastructures, you cannot build anything without the explicit approval of IDF especially when it comes to water(order 948) and power infrastructures, IDF is also in charge of the borders you can't legally import things or people without their explicit approval.

It's a total fallacy to suggest that Israel withdrew from the area, they literally and legally(militarily) control Gaza. It's also a fallacy to suggest that any territory on this planet can turn into Dubai when your borders and infrastructures are legally in the hands of a third party who has an history of rejecting civil projects.
 
gfactor86 said:
Sorry but this is bullshit. While I agree, the current Israeli government have no interest in a 2 state solution, let's not paint Hamas as moderate. Their manifesto is for the destruction of Israel. They do not try to hide from this.

Gunning young people down at a music festival and burning families alive is not resistance. It's terrorism.

The Hamas chiefs live it up in Qatar and are worth 100s of millions of dollars. They've received enough international aid to turn Gaza into Dubai. Any money they received was used to acquire rockets and build tunnels. Nothing for the Palestinians. Not even bomb shelters.

There can be no meaningful change in Israel unless Hamas are dismantled and Netanyahu is toppled for a moderate government.
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I was intrigued about the source of this talking point that Hamas' leaders are luxury-living multimillionaires and went looking it up to find that, as expected, there is no evidence whatsoever to it. I did however come across this identical piece of propaganda by the French during their occupation of Algeria regarding the Algerian resistance movement.



Translation: The murderous fellagha (anti-colonial fighters) steal your savings. The leaders of the rebellion are having fun with your money abroad.

Fascinating how they recycle the same talking points and propaganda decades later.
 
jadaba said:
I was intrigued about the source of this talking point that Hamas' leaders are luxury-living multimillionaires and went looking it up to find that, as expected, there is no evidence whatsoever to it. I did however come across this identical piece of propaganda by the French during their occupation of Algeria regarding the Algerian resistance movement.



Translation: The murderous fellagha (anti-colonial fighters) steal your savings. The leaders of the rebellion are having fun with your money abroad.

Fascinating how they recycle the same talking points and propaganda decades later.
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Hamas leaders like Haniyeh reside in Qatar if I recall correctly. They seem to live pretty well and luxurious. The notion that they're billionaires doesn't really fly but they're hardly living the same life as a Gazan civilian.
 
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jadaba said:
I was intrigued about the source of this talking point that Hamas' leaders are luxury-living multimillionaires and went looking it up to find that, as expected, there is no evidence whatsoever to it. I did however come across this identical piece of propaganda by the French during their occupation of Algeria regarding the Algerian resistance movement.



Translation: The murderous fellagha (anti-colonial fighters) steal your savings. The leaders of the rebellion are having fun with your money abroad.

Fascinating how they recycle the same talking points and propaganda decades later.
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So you did 5 min Google search and that is it? What did you expect to find? Tax records? Invoices? The absurdity of your claim is beyond any reason. Just a big lie.
 
Giggsy PO said:
So you did 5 min Google search and that is it? What did you expect to find? Tax records? Invoices? The absurdity of your claim is beyond any reason. Just a big lie.
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Out of interest, what is the evidence for it? Would be interested to see some.
 
Idxomer said:


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So if i post anything on here. I need to back it up with verifiable evidence, otherwise it's just "Israel Propaganda" or" Zionist lies". However, you are allowed to post this propaganda all day. No source, just a man tweeting something random.
 
Israel is doing more damage to its reputation than anything else… The entire world is seeing this regime for what it is…

Only the ruling elites in the white western countries (not the populations, they’ve open their eyes) are still arguing about it.

 
gfactor86 said:
Because more than likely all the hostages have been taken to Rafah because Hamas want to ensure maximum civilian damage.
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And when they flatten Rafah, kill thousands more, perhaps ethnically cleanse the whole population, likely still fail to capture Sinwar or capture more than a handful of hostages, what then? What's the next target?

And that rather misses the original point then of what happened to their original intel and the reason they've taken this, one of the last remaining semi functional hospitals, out of action?
 
africanspur said:
And when they flatten Rafah, kill thousands more, perhaps ethnically cleanse the whole population, likely still fail to capture Sinwar or capture more than a handful of hostages, what then? What's the next target?

And that rather misses the original point then of what happened to their original intel and the reason they've taken this, one of the last remaining semi functional hospitals, out of action?
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The only way you can be sure Hamas is not operating in Gaza and the West Bank is by removing the population of Gaza and the West Bank.

That's the only logical outcome to this line of reasoning.
 
VorZakone said:
Hamas leaders like Haniyeh reside in Qatar if I recall correctly. They seem to live pretty well and luxurious. The notion that they're billionaires doesn't really fly but they're hardly living the same life as a Gazan civilian.
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Their political leadership does live in Qatar and they'll be living in better conditions than most of us. But the thing is I've never seen anybody claim they're living like ordinary Gazans, yet the post I quoted makes a huge leap in going from that to believing they're worth hundreds of millions. It may not be a big deal to fixate on but I do think it betrays a misunderstanding of the leadership and Palestinian struggle itself. To me the idea that killing these few men will miraculously lead to transformed fortunes for Gazans or Palestinians as a whole is deluded. As long as they're occupied, they will be in a violent struggle against Israel.
 
Giggsy PO said:
So you did 5 min Google search and that is it? What did you expect to find? Tax records? Invoices? The absurdity of your claim is beyond any reason. Just a big lie.
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I was expecting to come across reliable and generally trusted news outlets reporting on it and providing some semblance of evidence or even basing their reporting on trustworthy sources. I did not find anything close to that, and noticed that the outlets 'reporting' were Daily Mail, NYPost, and those sorts. Could you point me to something considered more trustworthy? Or is this the calibre of sources you deem believable?
 
africanspur said:
Out of interest, what is the evidence for it? Would be interested to see some.
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He and the other lost cause in this this thread have none. Never had. Lies, gaslighting, strawman arguments and bad faith are their weapons. Eylon Levy style.

Talking to wall would be more productive than replying to their posts.
 
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It's probably been done already but even AI knows what's going on is a war crime.

Can one country tell the population of another country to move to a specific location or they will be bombed? And is this legal under international law?

No, one country cannot tell the population of another country to move to a specific location or they will be bombed. This is a serious violation of international law and human rights on several levels:
Threat of Force: The threat of using military force against civilians to coerce them into moving constitutes a violation of the prohibition of the use of force enshrined in Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter.
Crimes Against Humanity: Such an action could be considered a crime against humanity under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which defines it as "deportation or forcible transfer of population."
Genocide: If the targeted population belongs to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and the intent is to destroy all or part of that group, the act could be considered genocide, another crime against humanity under the Rome Statute.
Internal Affairs: Issuing such an ultimatum interferes with the sovereignty and internal affairs of the other country. Countries have the right to control their own populations and territories without external threats.
Human Rights: The action violates the fundamental human rights of the targeted population, including the right to life, security of person, freedom of movement, and the right not to be subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
Consequences: If a country were to carry out such a threat, it would face severe international condemnation, possibly including economic sanctions, diplomatic isolation, and even military intervention. It could also be held accountable before the International Criminal Court.
It is important to remember that international law is not always perfectly upheld, and powerful countries might sometimes act with impunity. However, the principles outlined above represent the established legal framework governing relations between states and the protection of individuals.
 
That_Bloke said:
He and the other lost cause in this page have none. Never had. Lies, gaslighting, strawman arguments and bad faith are their weapons. Eylon Levy style.

Talking to wall would be more productive than replying to their repulsive posts.
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I have genuinely wondered whether they are misinformed or being malicious. I also noticed that neither really respond to points that aren't opinions and contradict their claims.

As an example there is no argument to be made around anyone turning Gaza into a better place unless IDF relinquish its current internationally recognized powers over the territory. I said before but IDF is in control of infrastructures and they are in control of the borders including imports, they have been enforcing a blockade with the help of Egypt for more than a decade, as things stands you couldn't turn Gaza into Mogadishu let alone Dubai and it's not due to gazans.
 
africanspur said:
Out of interest, what is the evidence for it? Would be interested to see some.
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The net worth stuff is a pretty widespread claim, several relatively serious papers have published it. I've tried looking into it, though, and hit a wall pretty quickly. They'll do the "reported by [other media]" thing, and that other media is referencing something someone else reported, and so on. Sometimes they reference Israeli social media posts.

I've never been able to find anything solid.
 
JPRouve said:
I have genuinely wondered whether they are misinformed or being malicious. I also noticed that neither really respond to points that aren't opinions and contradict their claims.

As an example there is no argument to be made around anyone turning Gaza into a better place unless IDF relinquish its current internationally recognized powers over the territory. I said before but IDF is in control of infrastructures and they are in control of the borders including imports, they have been enforcing a blockade with the help of Egypt for more than a decade, as things stands you couldn't turn Gaza into Mogadishu let alone Dubai and it's not due to gazans.
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To go off on a slight tangent, lots of loyalists in Northern Ireland hark back to a rose-tinted past when orange marches went through Catholic areas and crowds of people would come out of their houses to watch the spectacle. They blame the IRA for destroying this idyllic state, where Catholics and Protestants got along just fine.

The reality is that, yes, people came out to watch the parades. However, it was more akin to an indigenous population coming out to see a triumphant conquering foreign army, as opposed to a family fun day out.

You see the same logic being employed by the defenders of the Israeli state: "We gave them everything and look at how they repay us!"
 
africanspur said:
Out of interest, what is the evidence for it? Would be interested to see some.
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NotThatSoph said:
The net worth stuff is a pretty widespread claim, several relatively serious papers have published it. I've tried looking into it, though, and hit a wall pretty quickly. They'll do the "reported by [other media]" thing, and that other media is referencing something someone else reported, and so on. Sometimes they reference Israeli social media posts.

I've never been able to find anything solid.
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The only thing more pathetic than these hasbara trolls is doing hasbara work but for no pay. Mentioning no names, @gfactor86 @Giggsy PO
 
The Corinthian said:


The only thing more pathetic than these hasbara trolls is doing hasbara work but for no pay. Mentioning no names, @gfactor86 @Giggsy PO
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Of course and you think the Palestinian propaganda machine doesn't work in the same way? Lot's of spurious sources, quoting all sorts of things a lot of which is nearly impossible to verify as true.
 
gfactor86 said:
Of course and you think the Palestinian propaganda machine doesn't work in the same way? Lot's of spurious sources, quoting all sorts of things a lot of which is nearly impossible to verify as true.
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Don't really need propaganda when the world sees the slaughter in their living rooms every day and hears nothing but easily refutable lies from Israeli government spokespeople.
 
gfactor86 said:
Of course and you think the Palestinian propaganda machine doesn't work in the same way? Lot's of spurious sources, quoting all sorts of things a lot of which is nearly impossible to verify as true.
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Is there a reason you’ve continually avoided answering the questions I put to you a few days ago?
 
gfactor86 said:
What's the problem? They are creating a DMZ to keep themselves safe from Hamas attempting another 7/10
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Why not just annex the entire territory and be done with it. Make the entirety of Gaza a DMZ. And then when the Palestinians attack back from the Sinai take that back too.

Why declare borders when you can just continue to expand borders to make room for more holiday homes. Uncle Sam's blessings mean the sky's the limit.
 
gfactor86 said:
What's the problem? They are creating a DMZ to keep themselves safe from Hamas attempting another 7/10
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Wiping them out would create the same effect to be fair, would be good to see that in action too I think.
 
gfactor86 said:
What's the problem? They are creating a DMZ to keep themselves safe from Hamas attempting another 7/10
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Are you for real? What's the problem? The problem is that Hamas only ever came to be in existence because of the way Palestinians were treated and how their land was continually stolen from them. Being forced to live in apartheid conditions in a place named as 'The biggest open air prison on the planet' having freedoms stripped away, abject poverty, in fear of being arrested and held indefinitely without reason, beaten by Police or military and watching friends, family, neighbours suffer the same.

Now you are saying turning one large prison in to two after months of absolute destruction and tens of thousands of deaths and forcing millions of people to become refugees with the majority literally dying from starvation, is just Israel protecting itself.... Unbelievable.


It's just going make things worse. A lot fecking worse.

Frankie Boyle is right, completely psychopathic way of thinking.
 
gfactor86 said:
Of course and you think the Palestinian propaganda machine doesn't work in the same way? Lot's of spurious sources, quoting all sorts of things a lot of which is nearly impossible to verify as true.
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That's because Israel keeps murdering all the Journalists. How else is news meant to come out of Gaza.
 
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