Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

gfactor86 said:
for what it's worth. I don't agree with Israeli policy and I think Netanyahu is deplorable.

A Zionist is someone who strives for a Jewish state and that the Jewish people should have the right to self-determination.

So by being a self-declared "Anti Zionist" you admit that you do not believe Jews are entitled to a state for themselves. Even though every single other major religion can self determine in a country of their own.
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gfactor86 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sts-chanted-in-birmingham-university-protest/

See article. There's an image of some students on a University campus (with the largest Jewish body in the UK) holding a massive sign saying "Zionists off our campus". Apparently chanting "Death to Zionists".

By your logic, this is not antisemitic. Because she says "Zionists", not "Jews". But Israel is the only Jewish state in the World. Most Jews in the diaspora have friends/family living in Israel, it is a place of immense significance to Jews around the world. So the two are inextricably linked.

The sign might as well just say "Jews off our campus", because the vast majority of Jews in the diaspora believe in the notion that Jewish people have the right to their own homeland and self-determination.

To me, it is just antisemitism masked as "anti-Zionism". As per the poster yesterday thinking you can just change the word from "Jew" to "Zionist" so that you can justify using stereotypical antisemitic tropes.
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gfactor86 said:
Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.

For example, if I held up a sign on campus saying "Arabs off our campus" then Muslim people could rightly say i am being Islamophobic. Then by your rationale, I can say that have a problem with Arabs in general and countries in the Middle East. Not Muslims themselves. So I am not Islamophobic.
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There's actually no unanimous or widely accepted consensus on what Zionism actually is, although you can probably understand what it means and its implications in a broad sense, its still a fairly nebulous term. That's why this conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is an easy get out clause for the pro-Zionist / pro-Israeli lot, and it's a card you yourself have played and continue to play. Your definition is one interpretation, but what we're seeing now is Zionism being the manifestation of a European colonial settler movement over an indigenous population. Why should Europeans have greater right over the land than the native Arab population? The current version of Zionism is a racist and supremacist ideology.

There are several prominent anti-Zionist Jews that I follow(ed) - Finkelstein, Shlaim, Pappe, Bourdain - would you class their opposition to Israel as antisemitic? Would you call people that self identify as Jewish and follow the Judaic religion antisemitic because of their views on Israel? It wouldn't and doesn't make sense (and again, it's a card the pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli lot love playing). It also takes away from real instances of antisemitism and diminishes the experiences of Jewish people who have faced antisemitism.
 
gfactor86 said:
Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.
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Only in your own narrow definition of Zionism. Also, since a Jewish state already exists, there is no "pursuit" of a Jewish state. It is now about how the Jewish state is maintained, developed and governed, and that is what people take exception to. People that are anti-Zionist do not necessarily want Israel to be abolished - they want them to stop illegal settlements, apartheid practices and so on. For whatever reason you refuse to understand this.
 
The Corinthian said:
There's actually no unanimous or widely accepted consensus on what Zionism actually is, although you can probably understand what it means and its implications in a broad sense, its still a fairly nebulous term. That's why this conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is an easy get out clause for the pro-Zionist / pro-Israeli lot, and it's a card you yourself have played and continue to play. Your definition is one interpretation, but what we're seeing now is Zionism being the manifestation of a European colonial settler movement over an indigenous population. Why should Europeans have greater right over the land than the native Arab population? The current version of Zionism is a racist and supremacist ideology.

There are several prominent anti-Zionist Jews that I follow(ed) - Finkelstein, Shlaim, Pappe, Bourdain - would you class their opposition to Israel as antisemitic? Would you call people that self identify as Jewish and follow the Judaic religion antisemitic because of their views on Israel? It wouldn't and doesn't make sense (and again, it's a card the pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli lot love playing). It also takes away from real instances of antisemitism and diminishes the experiences of Jewish people who have faced antisemitism.
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No, they are self-hating Jews.

 
The Corinthian said:
There's actually no unanimous or widely accepted consensus on what Zionism actually is, although you can probably understand what it means and its implications in a broad sense, its still a fairly nebulous term. That's why this conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is an easy get out clause for the pro-Zionist / pro-Israeli lot, and it's a card you yourself have played and continue to play. Your definition is one interpretation, but what we're seeing now is Zionism being the manifestation of a European colonial settler movement over an indigenous population. Why should Europeans have greater right over the land than the native Arab population? The current version of Zionism is a racist and supremacist ideology.

There are several prominent anti-Zionist Jews that I follow(ed) - Finkelstein, Shlaim, Pappe, Bourdain - would you class their opposition to Israel as antisemitic? Would you call people that self identify as Jewish and follow the Judaic religion antisemitic because of their views on Israel? It wouldn't and doesn't make sense (and again, it's a card the pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli lot love playing). It also takes away from real instances of antisemitism and diminishes the experiences of Jewish people who have faced antisemitism.
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It is for interpretation and how you define it. To me, to be Anti-Zionist is to be someone that does not believe that the Jewish people should have a state. Some would say, not have a state in "Palestine".

But then this underpins the issue that Israel then has. A large body of people that does not believe that it has the right to exist. I don't see any of the "Pro-Palestinian lot" calling for a two state solution. They are "Anti-Zionist" and so don't recognise that Israel has any right exist. So a two state solution is therefore unfathomable for them.
 
gfactor86 said:
It is for interpretation and how you define it. To me, to be Anti-Zionist is to be someone that does not believe that the Jewish people should have a state. Some would say, not have a state in "Palestine".

But then this underpins the issue that Israel then has. A large body of people that does not believe that it has the right to exist. I don't see any of the "Pro-Palestinian lot" calling for a two state solution. They are "Anti-Zionist" and so don't recognise that Israel has any right exist. So a two state solution is therefore unfathomable for them.
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Well, we're never going to agree on a definition of what Zionism is (so I don't really agree with the argument you're positing), but I wouldn't have any issues with an Israel being created in an uninhabited land that didn't come with the brutalisation and occupation of a native peoples. You would find scant opposition to an Israel being created in say, Kansas (I'm assuming Kansas has lots of land that is uninhabited). I oppose an Israel being created in a land that belongs to indigenous group, especially when that other group is stripped of ALL of its human and civil rights, and where they're committing a genocide against the indigenous population.

And it's not my problem you've ignored the 'pro-Palestinian' lot who have argued for a two state solution - I myself have made that point in this thread a few times.

You also (conveniently) ignored my commentary on prominent anti-Zionist Jews. Where do you stand on them?
 
gfactor86 said:
Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.

For example, if I held up a sign on campus saying "Arabs off our campus" then Muslim people could rightly say i am being Islamophobic. Then by your rationale, I can say that have a problem with Arabs in general and countries in the Middle East. Not Muslims themselves. So I am not Islamophobic.
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That really doesn't work at all, Arab isn't an ideology.

But for your first point as it's more relevant. Being truthful do you actually think those anti-Zionists have an issue with any Jewish state existing? Purely hypothetical but if the Jewish state moved to an unpopulated island they'd still be against it? Of course, they wouldn't because most (not all) in that movement are ideological humanitarians.

I agree these people are lazy for using the term zionist but only because their objection isn't a Jewish state existing it's how the Jewish state exists. It all gets muddled together because the actual implementation has been one of oppression so yeah it's understandable but perhaps unhelpful. Any clearer term would end up with similar accusations I'm sure.

I'm in the camp where I'm probably the actual definition of anti-zionist. I'm against the set up or running of any state as a religious or ethno-state. I don't think you can ever have a peaceful inclusive society with such constraining ideology. I certainly don't feel that makes me a jew hater because I don't, however by your definition it does.
 
gfactor86 said:
It is for interpretation and how you define it. To me, to be Anti-Zionist is to be someone that does not believe that the Jewish people should have a state. Some would say, not have a state in "Palestine".

But then this underpins the issue that Israel then has. A large body of people that does not believe that it has the right to exist. I don't see any of the "Pro-Palestinian lot" calling for a two state solution. They are "Anti-Zionist" and so don't recognise that Israel has any right exist. So a two state solution is therefore unfathomable for them.
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That's not what Anti-Zionism means.

You went from talking out of your backside to straight up lying.
 
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Smores said:
That really doesn't work at all, Arab isn't an ideology.

But for your first point as it's more relevant. Being truthful do you actually think those anti-Zionists have an issue with any Jewish state existing? Purely hypothetical but if the Jewish state moved to an unpopulated island they'd still be against it? Of course, they wouldn't because most (not all) in that movement are ideological humanitarians.

I agree these people are lazy for using the term zionist but only because their objection isn't a Jewish state existing it's how the Jewish state exists. It all gets muddled together because the actual implementation has been one of oppression so yeah it's understandable but perhaps unhelpful. Any clearer term would end up with similar accusations I'm sure.

I'm in the camp where I'm probably the actual definition of anti-zionist. I'm against the set up or running of any state as a religious or ethno-state. I don't think you can ever have a peaceful inclusive society with such constraining ideology. I certainly don't feel that makes me a jew hater because I don't, however by your definition it does.
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I agree with most of what you have said in all the above posts. And I respond to you with wider points because it's no point addressing the other fella.

However I don't believe using Zionism is lazy.
I'm Muslim. Within Islam there are certain ideologies that arise. Not all are as Islamic as they claim to be. But that's a wider argument. The point is to be against that specific ideology isn't lazy and not all encompassing.

So someone may hate the shia ideology. That isn't hating all Muslims. Just as an example.

Zionism is by definition and by it's very nature a specific ideology. It has certain beliefs and claims that even all Jews don't agree with.

Anti Zionism being anti semitism is like like anti Al qaida or anti ISIS is Islamophobia.
 


It's incredible how many countries allow themselves to be the lapdogs of the US.
 


20 trucks entered Gaza today, which is only enough for one day for 5% of the population.
 
I’m appalled beyond belief at this point what’s unfolding right in front of us. Never ever I imagined civilians in tens of thousands would be brutalised, massacred like this. Men, women, kids, elderly no one is spared. What’s their fault? How can anyone recover from this even if they survive? It’s a purge, a bloodbath, a genocide of Palestinians and the countries that can do something are watching this with ease. Evil governments evil people. Civilised my arse. It’s a failed world. Any faction that arises in the future is the direct result of this genocide. And could you blame them?
 
Roane said:
I agree with most of what you have said in all the above posts. And I respond to you with wider points because it's no point addressing the other fella.

However I don't believe using Zionism is lazy.
I'm Muslim. Within Islam there are certain ideologies that arise. Not all are as Islamic as they claim to be. But that's a wider argument. The point is to be against that specific ideology isn't lazy and not all encompassing.

So someone may hate the shia ideology. That isn't hating all Muslims. Just as an example.

Zionism is by definition and by it's very nature a specific ideology. It has certain beliefs and claims that even all Jews don't agree with.

Anti Zionism being anti semitism is like like anti Al qaida or anti ISIS is Islamophobia.
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I'd say interpretations and it happens with every religion.

Not sure what you're getting at. If Shia is an ideology, so is Sunna. I personally find your analogy a bit wonky to say the least. I personally see Sunna and Shia as two different interpretations of the same religious source. A bit like Catholics and Protestants. Hating Shia believers makes you a biggoted asshole and anti-muslim, because Shiites are muslims. The same goes for hating Sunnis. Or Jews. Or Christians. Or Buddhists. Or Atheists. You get the gist of it.

You also can't compare Zionism with Shia. Shia is an islamic religious belief. Zionism is a nationalist ideology born out of the prevalent antisemitism and mass persecutions in Europe.
 
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gfactor86 said:
so what's the solution?
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Kill palestinians. Once all dead, there is no anti zionism as there is no oppositions to a whole Israel state. everybody (alive) wins and we can build the 3 salomon temple, bring the messiah and start the apocalipsis
 
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kaku06 said:
I’m appalled beyond belief at this point what’s unfolding right in front of us. Never ever I imagined civilians in tens of thousands would be brutalised, massacred like this. Men, women, kids, elderly no one is spared. What’s their fault? How can anyone recover from this even if they survive? It’s a purge, a bloodbath, a genocide of Palestinians and the countries that can do something are watching this with ease. Evil governments evil people. Civilised my arse. It’s a failed world. Any faction that arises in the future is the direct result of this genocide. And could you blame them?
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This has been the perpetual state of Palestine/Israel mainly resulting from the US/UKs foreign policy of not recognising a Palestinian state and giving Israel free reign to do whatever they want with no limits. The problem is whenever a Hamas attack on Israel happens the West and Western media like to portray it as if it came out of nowhere comparing it to 9/11 etc... There's a reason there is a deep hate for Israel within the Palestinian community and after this if Israel do get rid of Hamas, as long as Palestine don't get their state and get officially recognised (something Bibi is trying hard to avoid) Israel have pretty much created a Hamas 2 with these attacks.
 


Didn't post it yesterday because wasn't sure of the source but now both the Washington Post and WSJ are reporting it.
 
Idxomer said:


Didn't post it yesterday because wasn't sure of the source but now both the Washington Post and WSJ are reporting it.
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preparing the next phase of ethnic cleansing . They will evacuate Gaza and never allowed to return. I hope it happens to safe as many lives possible. But is ethnic cleansing and no one can deny it
 
Fairly obvious what Israel are doing, and thanks to international relations very little is being done about it. USA have completely failed and other western countries are generally falling in line afraid to say something that will result in problems.
 
kaku06 said:
I’m appalled beyond belief at this point what’s unfolding right in front of us. Never ever I imagined civilians in tens of thousands would be brutalised, massacred like this. Men, women, kids, elderly no one is spared. What’s their fault? How can anyone recover from this even if they survive? It’s a purge, a bloodbath, a genocide of Palestinians and the countries that can do something are watching this with ease. Evil governments evil people. Civilised my arse. It’s a failed world. Any faction that arises in the future is the direct result of this genocide. And could you blame them?
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Hard to disagree. I am appalled by what's being done. Shame on those responsible.
 
That_Bloke said:
I'd say interpretations and it happens with every religion.

Not sure what you're getting at. If Shia is an ideology, so is Sunna. I personally find your analogy a bit wonky to say the least. I personally see Sunna and Shia as two different interpretations of the same religious source. A bit like Catholics and Protestants. Hating Shia believers makes you a biggoted asshole and anti-muslim, because Shiites are muslims. The same goes for hating Sunnis. Or Jews. Or Christians. Or Buddhists. Or Atheists. You get the gist of it.

You also can't compare Zionism with Shia. Shia is an islamic religious belief. Zionism is a nationalist ideology born out of the prevalent antisemitism and mass persecutions in Europe.
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I should have been more clear. I wasn't comparing Shia with Zionism. I just gave a, lazy maybe, example. As the Shia and Sunni are what most people are aware of. It was just an example but I should have been clearer.
 
4bars said:
preparing the next phase of ethnic cleansing . They will evacuate Gaza and never allowed to return. I hope it happens to safe as many lives possible. But is ethnic cleansing and no one can deny it
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Palestinians will carry out attacks from there giving the Israelis an excuse to extend their security apparatus into the sinai again, it will be like they never left.
 
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