Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

RedTiger said:
I think the current civilisational trajectory of continuous 20 second dopamine hits will have an effect on these young peoples long term memory.
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And I think that the older generations who were bound and drenched by the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust will become less and less relevant.

The younger ones aren't so tightly tied to the past and are becoming less and less emotionally influenced by it. All they see is what's happening in their lifetime and have a pretty good view at the moment. They might not vote or lead right now, but eventually will. Nothing is immutable, our whole universe is built and relies upon it. That's the way it is, something a lot of people seem to forget.
 
In which Israel strikes another working hospital:



Meanwhile, Israel preserves the evidence of tunnels underneath UNRWA buildings:

 
Ekkie Thump said:
This defence is complete bollocks and has very little to do with why @Bosnian_fan's post was blatantly antisemitic. You wouldn't describe Biden, or Labour/Tory politicians as having "infiltrated" positions of power would you? What you think they've smuggled in their Zionism via the back door to unleash on an unsuspecting nation? Bullshit. If your go to is that all these people are zionst then you don't use the word "infiltrated" you just say it as it is: Zionism is a dominant philosophy in American politics and society and you recognise the US as being full of willing ears and full throated supporters.

This is the familiar motte and baily fallacy. We open with the bailey: There are sinister forces infiltrating the corridors of power, some of them buying our politicians and all of them placing their secretive hands on the levers of government. Then, when pressed, we retreat to this motte of yours: "not all zionists are Jews, look at all these obvious zionists in positions of power".

This second argument is so unlike the first that it bears no relation to it. Bosnian_fan specifically avoided saying Jew, but the intent seems evident enough to me.
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That_Bloke said:
He absolutely fecked up and gave into the "Jews rule the world" trope, giving unexpected ammunition to the two active, argument-starved and die-hard Israel apologists in this thread. And you're making the exact same mistake.

Aside from the weight of History, there's common strategic interests and cultural affinities between the West and Israel that lead the former to unconditionally stand on the latter's side. It massively contributes to the Western governments turning a blind eye and not only supporting what's happening in Palestine for decades, but also actively destroying any Arab/Muslim country in the Middle-East that could pose any threat, Iran being the last man standing. Especially since 9/11, no matter how much AIPAC and the likes could weigh in. The Syrian refugee crisis, an indirect result of the disastrous US policy in the region, and massive immigration problems in Europe didn't help either.

However, the bubble with all its double standards has well and truly burst since 10/7 with all the world watching. People think that it will go on unpunished forever, but the thing is that the youngest western population doesn't see it that way. They might not play a major role yet, but the time for Israel's total impunity no matter what they do, is coming to an end.
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You're both right, of course. I was tired and foggy brained from a fever and it just didn't register to me that he was talking about Zionists infiltrating media and governments.
 
Daylight executions in the WB live on camera.

 
That_Bloke said:
That's one of the most disingenuous fallacies I've read here, and the worst of it is that there's still people falling for it.

What the feck is that even supposed to mean?
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sts-chanted-in-birmingham-university-protest/

See article. There's an image of some students on a University campus (with the largest Jewish body in the UK) holding a massive sign saying "Zionists off our campus". Apparently chanting "Death to Zionists".

By your logic, this is not antisemitic. Because she says "Zionists", not "Jews". But Israel is the only Jewish state in the World. Most Jews in the diaspora have friends/family living in Israel, it is a place of immense significance to Jews around the world. So the two are inextricably linked.

The sign might as well just say "Jews off our campus", because the vast majority of Jews in the diaspora believe in the notion that Jewish people have the right to their own homeland and self-determination.

To me, it is just antisemitism masked as "anti-Zionism". As per the poster yesterday thinking you can just change the word from "Jew" to "Zionist" so that you can justify using stereotypical antisemitic tropes.
 
gfactor86 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sts-chanted-in-birmingham-university-protest/

See article. There's an image of some students on a University campus (with the largest Jewish body in the UK) holding a massive sign saying "Zionists off our campus". Apparently chanting "Death to Zionists".

By your logic, this is not antisemitic. Because she says "Zionists", not "Jews". But Israel is the only Jewish state in the World. Most Jews in the diaspora have friends/family living in Israel, it is a place of immense significance to Jews around the world. So the two are inextricably linked.

The sign might as well just say "Jews off our campus", because the vast majority of Jews in the diaspora believe in the notion that Jewish people have the right to their own homeland and self-determination.

To me, it is just antisemitism masked as "anti-Zionism". As per the poster yesterday thinking you can just change the word from "Jew" to "Zionist" so that you can justify using stereotypical antisemitic tropes.
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The problem is that Israeli officials and their ardent supporters are so eager to use the antisemitism card, whenever Israel is criticized for their behavior. Instantly equating anti-Zionism to antisemitism does no good. Zionists and Jews are clearly not the same, even though there is of course a significant overlap. There are many Jews that are not Zionists, and there are many Zionists that are not Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to an ideology, which can be warranted. Antisemitism is opposition to a race/religion, which can not. And the people that are anti-Zionist, mostly do not view Zionism as merely the right to a Jewish state, but rather as a broader movement that includes settler colonialism and oppression of the Palestinian people.

Of course, there are bad actors that deliberately use anti-Zionism as a dog whistle for their hatred of Jews as well, but I honestly don't think that is what is generally happening at university campuses.
 


They've been killing Palestinians and shooting at the hospital for days because of this.
 
Giggsyking said:
Daylight executions in the WB live on camera.

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Wish I didn't watch that. It is really starting to take a toll on me this war. The disregard for decency, life, humanity is just unbelievable.
 
Mike Smalling said:
The problem is that Israeli officials and their ardent supporters are so eager to use the antisemitism card, whenever Israel is criticized for their behavior. Instantly equating anti-Zionism to antisemitism does no good. Zionists and Jews are clearly not the same, even though there is of course a significant overlap. There are many Jews that are not Zionists, and there are many Zionists that are not Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to an ideology, which can be warranted. Antisemitism is opposition to a race/religion, which can not. And the people that are anti-Zionist, mostly do not view Zionism as merely the right to a Jewish state, but rather as a broader movement that includes settler colonialism and oppression of the Palestinian people.

Of course, there are bad actors that deliberately use anti-Zionism as a dog whistle for their hatred of Jews as well, but I honestly don't think that is what is generally happening at university campuses.
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You're wasting your time because he won't change his. It's obvious to anyone without bias that anti-Zionism has nothing to do with opposition against jews or even Jewish statehood at this point. It's easy to weaponize definitions though and that's a tool too often used to curtail criticism. No matter the term or slogan used it's called anti-Semitic.

If there were no occupation or persecution involved there would be no anti-zionist movement. That's an inconvenient truth though for those pushing a defence. I personally prefer not to cite the term zionist as it's lazy anyway, better to call the state and government exactly what it is, a terrorist apartheid government.
 
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Smores said:
You're wasting your time because he won't change his. It's obvious to anyone without bias that anti-Zionism has nothing to do with opposition against jews or even Jewish statehood at this point. It's easy to weaponize definitions though and that's a tool too often used to curtail criticism. No matter the term or slogan used it's called anti-Semitic.

If there were no occupation or persecution involved there would be no anti-zionist movement. That's an inconvenient truth though for those pushing a defence. I personally prefer not to cite the term zionist as it's lazy anyway, better to call the state and government exactly what it is, a terrorist apartheid government.
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Yeah, I know. People don't tend to change their opinion or even apply a lot of nuance in this thread - most are dug into their positions.
 
Smores said:
You're wasting your time because he won't change his. It's obvious to anyone without bias that anti-Zionism has nothing to do with opposition against jews or even Jewish statehood at this point. It's easy to weaponize definitions though and that's a tool too often used to curtail criticism. No matter the term or slogan used it's called anti-Semitic.

If there were no occupation or persecution involved there would be no anti-zionist movement. That's an inconvenient truth though for those pushing a defence. I personally prefer not to cite the term zionist as it's lazy anyway, better to call the state and government exactly what it is, a terrorist apartheid government.
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Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.

For example, if I held up a sign on campus saying "Arabs off our campus" then Muslim people could rightly say i am being Islamophobic. Then by your rationale, I can say that have a problem with Arabs in general and countries in the Middle East. Not Muslims themselves. So I am not Islamophobic.
 
gfactor86 said:
for what it's worth. I don't agree with Israeli policy and I think Netanyahu is deplorable.

A Zionist is someone who strives for a Jewish state and that the Jewish people should have the right to self-determination.

So by being a self-declared "Anti Zionist" you admit that you do not believe Jews are entitled to a state for themselves. Even though every single other major religion can self determine in a country of their own.
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gfactor86 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sts-chanted-in-birmingham-university-protest/

See article. There's an image of some students on a University campus (with the largest Jewish body in the UK) holding a massive sign saying "Zionists off our campus". Apparently chanting "Death to Zionists".

By your logic, this is not antisemitic. Because she says "Zionists", not "Jews". But Israel is the only Jewish state in the World. Most Jews in the diaspora have friends/family living in Israel, it is a place of immense significance to Jews around the world. So the two are inextricably linked.

The sign might as well just say "Jews off our campus", because the vast majority of Jews in the diaspora believe in the notion that Jewish people have the right to their own homeland and self-determination.

To me, it is just antisemitism masked as "anti-Zionism". As per the poster yesterday thinking you can just change the word from "Jew" to "Zionist" so that you can justify using stereotypical antisemitic tropes.
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gfactor86 said:
Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.

For example, if I held up a sign on campus saying "Arabs off our campus" then Muslim people could rightly say i am being Islamophobic. Then by your rationale, I can say that have a problem with Arabs in general and countries in the Middle East. Not Muslims themselves. So I am not Islamophobic.
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There's actually no unanimous or widely accepted consensus on what Zionism actually is, although you can probably understand what it means and its implications in a broad sense, its still a fairly nebulous term. That's why this conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is an easy get out clause for the pro-Zionist / pro-Israeli lot, and it's a card you yourself have played and continue to play. Your definition is one interpretation, but what we're seeing now is Zionism being the manifestation of a European colonial settler movement over an indigenous population. Why should Europeans have greater right over the land than the native Arab population? The current version of Zionism is a racist and supremacist ideology.

There are several prominent anti-Zionist Jews that I follow(ed) - Finkelstein, Shlaim, Pappe, Bourdain - would you class their opposition to Israel as antisemitic? Would you call people that self identify as Jewish and follow the Judaic religion antisemitic because of their views on Israel? It wouldn't and doesn't make sense (and again, it's a card the pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli lot love playing). It also takes away from real instances of antisemitism and diminishes the experiences of Jewish people who have faced antisemitism.
 
gfactor86 said:
Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.
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Only in your own narrow definition of Zionism. Also, since a Jewish state already exists, there is no "pursuit" of a Jewish state. It is now about how the Jewish state is maintained, developed and governed, and that is what people take exception to. People that are anti-Zionist do not necessarily want Israel to be abolished - they want them to stop illegal settlements, apartheid practices and so on. For whatever reason you refuse to understand this.
 
The Corinthian said:
There's actually no unanimous or widely accepted consensus on what Zionism actually is, although you can probably understand what it means and its implications in a broad sense, its still a fairly nebulous term. That's why this conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is an easy get out clause for the pro-Zionist / pro-Israeli lot, and it's a card you yourself have played and continue to play. Your definition is one interpretation, but what we're seeing now is Zionism being the manifestation of a European colonial settler movement over an indigenous population. Why should Europeans have greater right over the land than the native Arab population? The current version of Zionism is a racist and supremacist ideology.

There are several prominent anti-Zionist Jews that I follow(ed) - Finkelstein, Shlaim, Pappe, Bourdain - would you class their opposition to Israel as antisemitic? Would you call people that self identify as Jewish and follow the Judaic religion antisemitic because of their views on Israel? It wouldn't and doesn't make sense (and again, it's a card the pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli lot love playing). It also takes away from real instances of antisemitism and diminishes the experiences of Jewish people who have faced antisemitism.
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No, they are self-hating Jews.

 
The Corinthian said:
There's actually no unanimous or widely accepted consensus on what Zionism actually is, although you can probably understand what it means and its implications in a broad sense, its still a fairly nebulous term. That's why this conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is an easy get out clause for the pro-Zionist / pro-Israeli lot, and it's a card you yourself have played and continue to play. Your definition is one interpretation, but what we're seeing now is Zionism being the manifestation of a European colonial settler movement over an indigenous population. Why should Europeans have greater right over the land than the native Arab population? The current version of Zionism is a racist and supremacist ideology.

There are several prominent anti-Zionist Jews that I follow(ed) - Finkelstein, Shlaim, Pappe, Bourdain - would you class their opposition to Israel as antisemitic? Would you call people that self identify as Jewish and follow the Judaic religion antisemitic because of their views on Israel? It wouldn't and doesn't make sense (and again, it's a card the pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli lot love playing). It also takes away from real instances of antisemitism and diminishes the experiences of Jewish people who have faced antisemitism.
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It is for interpretation and how you define it. To me, to be Anti-Zionist is to be someone that does not believe that the Jewish people should have a state. Some would say, not have a state in "Palestine".

But then this underpins the issue that Israel then has. A large body of people that does not believe that it has the right to exist. I don't see any of the "Pro-Palestinian lot" calling for a two state solution. They are "Anti-Zionist" and so don't recognise that Israel has any right exist. So a two state solution is therefore unfathomable for them.
 
gfactor86 said:
It is for interpretation and how you define it. To me, to be Anti-Zionist is to be someone that does not believe that the Jewish people should have a state. Some would say, not have a state in "Palestine".

But then this underpins the issue that Israel then has. A large body of people that does not believe that it has the right to exist. I don't see any of the "Pro-Palestinian lot" calling for a two state solution. They are "Anti-Zionist" and so don't recognise that Israel has any right exist. So a two state solution is therefore unfathomable for them.
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Well, we're never going to agree on a definition of what Zionism is (so I don't really agree with the argument you're positing), but I wouldn't have any issues with an Israel being created in an uninhabited land that didn't come with the brutalisation and occupation of a native peoples. You would find scant opposition to an Israel being created in say, Kansas (I'm assuming Kansas has lots of land that is uninhabited). I oppose an Israel being created in a land that belongs to indigenous group, especially when that other group is stripped of ALL of its human and civil rights, and where they're committing a genocide against the indigenous population.

And it's not my problem you've ignored the 'pro-Palestinian' lot who have argued for a two state solution - I myself have made that point in this thread a few times.

You also (conveniently) ignored my commentary on prominent anti-Zionist Jews. Where do you stand on them?
 
gfactor86 said:
Anti-Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state. Because Zionism is the pursuit of a Jewish state.

For example, if I held up a sign on campus saying "Arabs off our campus" then Muslim people could rightly say i am being Islamophobic. Then by your rationale, I can say that have a problem with Arabs in general and countries in the Middle East. Not Muslims themselves. So I am not Islamophobic.
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That really doesn't work at all, Arab isn't an ideology.

But for your first point as it's more relevant. Being truthful do you actually think those anti-Zionists have an issue with any Jewish state existing? Purely hypothetical but if the Jewish state moved to an unpopulated island they'd still be against it? Of course, they wouldn't because most (not all) in that movement are ideological humanitarians.

I agree these people are lazy for using the term zionist but only because their objection isn't a Jewish state existing it's how the Jewish state exists. It all gets muddled together because the actual implementation has been one of oppression so yeah it's understandable but perhaps unhelpful. Any clearer term would end up with similar accusations I'm sure.

I'm in the camp where I'm probably the actual definition of anti-zionist. I'm against the set up or running of any state as a religious or ethno-state. I don't think you can ever have a peaceful inclusive society with such constraining ideology. I certainly don't feel that makes me a jew hater because I don't, however by your definition it does.
 
gfactor86 said:
It is for interpretation and how you define it. To me, to be Anti-Zionist is to be someone that does not believe that the Jewish people should have a state. Some would say, not have a state in "Palestine".

But then this underpins the issue that Israel then has. A large body of people that does not believe that it has the right to exist. I don't see any of the "Pro-Palestinian lot" calling for a two state solution. They are "Anti-Zionist" and so don't recognise that Israel has any right exist. So a two state solution is therefore unfathomable for them.
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That's not what Anti-Zionism means.

You went from talking out of your backside to straight up lying.
 
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Smores said:
That really doesn't work at all, Arab isn't an ideology.

But for your first point as it's more relevant. Being truthful do you actually think those anti-Zionists have an issue with any Jewish state existing? Purely hypothetical but if the Jewish state moved to an unpopulated island they'd still be against it? Of course, they wouldn't because most (not all) in that movement are ideological humanitarians.

I agree these people are lazy for using the term zionist but only because their objection isn't a Jewish state existing it's how the Jewish state exists. It all gets muddled together because the actual implementation has been one of oppression so yeah it's understandable but perhaps unhelpful. Any clearer term would end up with similar accusations I'm sure.

I'm in the camp where I'm probably the actual definition of anti-zionist. I'm against the set up or running of any state as a religious or ethno-state. I don't think you can ever have a peaceful inclusive society with such constraining ideology. I certainly don't feel that makes me a jew hater because I don't, however by your definition it does.
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I agree with most of what you have said in all the above posts. And I respond to you with wider points because it's no point addressing the other fella.

However I don't believe using Zionism is lazy.
I'm Muslim. Within Islam there are certain ideologies that arise. Not all are as Islamic as they claim to be. But that's a wider argument. The point is to be against that specific ideology isn't lazy and not all encompassing.

So someone may hate the shia ideology. That isn't hating all Muslims. Just as an example.

Zionism is by definition and by it's very nature a specific ideology. It has certain beliefs and claims that even all Jews don't agree with.

Anti Zionism being anti semitism is like like anti Al qaida or anti ISIS is Islamophobia.
 


It's incredible how many countries allow themselves to be the lapdogs of the US.
 


20 trucks entered Gaza today, which is only enough for one day for 5% of the population.
 
I’m appalled beyond belief at this point what’s unfolding right in front of us. Never ever I imagined civilians in tens of thousands would be brutalised, massacred like this. Men, women, kids, elderly no one is spared. What’s their fault? How can anyone recover from this even if they survive? It’s a purge, a bloodbath, a genocide of Palestinians and the countries that can do something are watching this with ease. Evil governments evil people. Civilised my arse. It’s a failed world. Any faction that arises in the future is the direct result of this genocide. And could you blame them?
 
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