Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Giggsy PO said:
someone claimed OJ is innocent
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You did, by suggesting a ruling from a court is all that matters. We all know he did it, yet he was walked free. So using your logic he must be innocent.

You can use all the deflections you want but everyone and their dog know it's only a matter a time before this is officially and widely considered a genocide. You and israel are just hoping that happens after the genocide is actually complete and they get all the land they want.
 
Halftrack said:
I agree one should be careful not to fall into the trap of suggesting Jews rund the world, but @Bosnian_fan specifically avoided that by referring to Zionists, who famously don't have to be Jewish. Or is Joe Biden not a huge Zionist? Are the majority of Democrats and Republicans not Zionists? Are the majority of Labour and Tory politicians not Zionists? Have the big media outlets in the West (BBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo etc) not been pushing a narrative that favors Israel, effectively a Zionist narrative?
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This defence is complete bollocks and has very little to do with why @Bosnian_fan's post was blatantly antisemitic. You wouldn't describe Biden, or Labour/Tory politicians as having "infiltrated" positions of power would you? What you think they've smuggled in their Zionism via the back door to unleash on an unsuspecting nation? Bullshit. If your go to is that all these people are zionst then you don't use the word "infiltrated" you just say it as it is: Zionism is a dominant philosophy in American politics and society and you recognise the US as being full of willing ears and full throated supporters.

This is the familiar motte and baily fallacy. We open with the bailey: There are sinister forces infiltrating the corridors of power, some of them buying our politicians and all of them placing their secretive hands on the levers of government. Then, when pressed, we retreat to this motte of yours: "not all zionists are Jews, look at all these obvious zionists in positions of power".

This second argument is so unlike the first that it bears no relation to it. Bosnian_fan specifically avoided saying Jew, but the intent seems evident enough to me.
 
Giggsy PO said:
You are not worth the effort if your conclusion is someone claimed OJ is innocent. Or completely missed the point why ICJ rulling take years. Or completely deflected Simple question About provisional measure. Or make your points without petty personal remarks.
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Stop playing dumb. You're not clever enough to hide what you're saying. Someone presented the OJ example because OJ Simpson is an obvious example of someone who is guilty even though a court said he is not, and your reply was that it doesn't matter, only the opinion of the court matters. Meaning, that the only thing that matters, even if OJ Simpson killed his wife, is that a court said he didn't.

It's doubly dumb because the only reason you said that about OJ Simpson is because you were claiming that the court has ruled that no genocide is happening, which is not true. It's such a silly own goal to make, why are you doing this? It's not something you actually believe, and it doesn't help your case to pretend.
 


We’ve watched yet another young Palestinian girl taking her last breaths, lying on a hospital floor, as an Israeli missile blew her stomach out.

We’ve seen medics desperately attempting to resuscitate a baby whose home had been destroyed by the IOF.

We’ve seen another infant whose legs had been blown off, lying in hospital without anaesthetic.

That’s five images that should never exist—five scenarios that can never be justified—in five days.

Yet these precious souls are merely five out of tens of thousands of dead or injured children—children the west sees as expendable to protect a fascist regime built on bloodshed.

There is no returning from this for the western order. The systems in place that facilitated this—and many genocides before it—must be entirely dismantled if the world is to know peace.
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Idxomer said:
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I don't claim to be fully up to date on this conflict nor am I on anyone's side - but the murder of children and seemingly not making attempts to make every effort to prevent it and make sure they have an ability to get out of harms way is inexcusable at the very least. Absolutely awful to read that tweet and hear of so many other similar horror stories. Imagine bringing a child in this world to just have their life cut short over something they have zero understanding or knowledge of.
 
gfactor86 said:
for what it's worth. I don't agree with Israeli policy and I think Netanyahu is deplorable.

A Zionist is someone who strives for a Jewish state and that the Jewish people should have the right to self-determination.

So by being a self-declared "Anti Zionist" you admit that you do not believe Jews are entitled to a state for themselves. Even though every single other major religion can self determine in a country of their own.
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That's one of the most disingenuous fallacies I've read here, and the worst of it is that there's still people falling for it.

What the feck is that even supposed to mean?
 
Redplane said:
I don't claim to be fully up to date on this conflict nor am I on anyone's side - but the murder of children and seemingly not making attempts to make every effort to prevent it and make sure they have an ability to get out of harms way is inexcusable at the very least. Absolutely awful to read that tweet and hear of so many other similar horror stories. Imagine bringing a child in this world to just have their life cut short over something they have zero understanding or knowledge of.
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I just can't imagine how any of the surviving children will be able to lead a normal life after this.
 
Idxomer said:
I just can't imagine how any of the surviving children will be able to lead a normal life after this.
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They can't. It's a captive, tortured, terrified population. God knows the scale of want, horror and calamity they've experienced.
 
GGVM4vGXIAAAJT7


Headline from today :rolleyes:
 
Halftrack said:
Yet all you do is defend the indiscriminate murder of civilians and find new, inventive ways to accuse critics of Israel of being anti-semites.


I agree one should be careful not to fall into the trap of suggesting Jews rund the world, but @Bosnian_fan specifically avoided that by referring to Zionists, who famously don't have to be Jewish. Or is Joe Biden not a huge Zionist? Are the majority of Democrats and Republicans not Zionists? Are the majority of Labour and Tory politicians not Zionists? Have the big media outlets in the West (BBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo etc) not been pushing a narrative that favors Israel, effectively a Zionist narrative?
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He absolutely fecked up and gave into the "Jews rule the world" trope, giving unexpected ammunition to the two active, argument-starved and die-hard Israel apologists in this thread. And you're making the exact same mistake.

Aside from the weight of History, there's common strategic interests and cultural affinities between the West and Israel that lead the former to unconditionally stand on the latter's side. It massively contributes to the Western governments turning a blind eye and not only supporting what's happening in Palestine for decades, but also actively destroying any Arab/Muslim country in the Middle-East that could pose any threat, Iran being the last man standing. Especially since 9/11, no matter how much AIPAC and the likes could weigh in. The Syrian refugee crisis, an indirect result of the disastrous US policy in the region, and massive immigration problems in Europe didn't help either.

However, the bubble with all its double standards has well and truly burst since 10/7 with all the world watching. People think that it will go on unpunished forever, but the thing is that the youngest western population doesn't see it that way. They might not play a major role yet, but the time for Israel's total impunity no matter what they do, is coming to an end.
 
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That_Bloke said:
He absolutely fecked up and gave into the "Jews rule the world" trope, giving unexpected ammunition to the two active, argument-starved and die-hard Israel apologists in this thread. And you're making the exact same mistake.

Aside from the weight of History, there's common strategic interests and cultural affinities between the West and Israel that lead the former to unconditionally stand on the latter's side. It massively contributes to the Western governments turning a blind eye and not only supporting what's happening in Palestine for decades, but also actively destroying any Arab/Muslim country in the Middle-East that could pose any threat, Iran being the last man standing. Especially since 9/11, no matter how much AIPAC and the likes could weigh in. The Syrian refugee crisis, an indirect result of the disastrous US policy in the region, and massive immigration problems in Europe didn't help either.

However, the bubble with all its double standards has well and truly burst since 10/7 with all the world watching. People think that it will go on unpunished forever, but the thing is that the youngest western population doesn't see it that way. They might not play a major role yet, but the time for Israel's total impunity no matter what they do, is coming to an end.
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Not even close. Israel impunity will continue forever or at least till Palestine cease to exist and Israel will be "complete". Nothing will stop Israel anything else is wishful thinking
 
4bars said:
Not even close. Israel impunity will continue forever or at least till Palestine cease to exist and Israel will be "complete". Nothing will stop Israel anything else is wishful thinking
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I don't think so.
 
RedTiger said:
I think the current civilisational trajectory of continuous 20 second dopamine hits will have an effect on these young peoples long term memory.
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And I think that the older generations who were bound and drenched by the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust will become less and less relevant.

The younger ones aren't so tightly tied to the past and are becoming less and less emotionally influenced by it. All they see is what's happening in their lifetime and have a pretty good view at the moment. They might not vote or lead right now, but eventually will. Nothing is immutable, our whole universe is built and relies upon it. That's the way it is, something a lot of people seem to forget.
 
In which Israel strikes another working hospital:



Meanwhile, Israel preserves the evidence of tunnels underneath UNRWA buildings:

 
Ekkie Thump said:
This defence is complete bollocks and has very little to do with why @Bosnian_fan's post was blatantly antisemitic. You wouldn't describe Biden, or Labour/Tory politicians as having "infiltrated" positions of power would you? What you think they've smuggled in their Zionism via the back door to unleash on an unsuspecting nation? Bullshit. If your go to is that all these people are zionst then you don't use the word "infiltrated" you just say it as it is: Zionism is a dominant philosophy in American politics and society and you recognise the US as being full of willing ears and full throated supporters.

This is the familiar motte and baily fallacy. We open with the bailey: There are sinister forces infiltrating the corridors of power, some of them buying our politicians and all of them placing their secretive hands on the levers of government. Then, when pressed, we retreat to this motte of yours: "not all zionists are Jews, look at all these obvious zionists in positions of power".

This second argument is so unlike the first that it bears no relation to it. Bosnian_fan specifically avoided saying Jew, but the intent seems evident enough to me.
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That_Bloke said:
He absolutely fecked up and gave into the "Jews rule the world" trope, giving unexpected ammunition to the two active, argument-starved and die-hard Israel apologists in this thread. And you're making the exact same mistake.

Aside from the weight of History, there's common strategic interests and cultural affinities between the West and Israel that lead the former to unconditionally stand on the latter's side. It massively contributes to the Western governments turning a blind eye and not only supporting what's happening in Palestine for decades, but also actively destroying any Arab/Muslim country in the Middle-East that could pose any threat, Iran being the last man standing. Especially since 9/11, no matter how much AIPAC and the likes could weigh in. The Syrian refugee crisis, an indirect result of the disastrous US policy in the region, and massive immigration problems in Europe didn't help either.

However, the bubble with all its double standards has well and truly burst since 10/7 with all the world watching. People think that it will go on unpunished forever, but the thing is that the youngest western population doesn't see it that way. They might not play a major role yet, but the time for Israel's total impunity no matter what they do, is coming to an end.
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You're both right, of course. I was tired and foggy brained from a fever and it just didn't register to me that he was talking about Zionists infiltrating media and governments.
 
Daylight executions in the WB live on camera.

 
That_Bloke said:
That's one of the most disingenuous fallacies I've read here, and the worst of it is that there's still people falling for it.

What the feck is that even supposed to mean?
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sts-chanted-in-birmingham-university-protest/

See article. There's an image of some students on a University campus (with the largest Jewish body in the UK) holding a massive sign saying "Zionists off our campus". Apparently chanting "Death to Zionists".

By your logic, this is not antisemitic. Because she says "Zionists", not "Jews". But Israel is the only Jewish state in the World. Most Jews in the diaspora have friends/family living in Israel, it is a place of immense significance to Jews around the world. So the two are inextricably linked.

The sign might as well just say "Jews off our campus", because the vast majority of Jews in the diaspora believe in the notion that Jewish people have the right to their own homeland and self-determination.

To me, it is just antisemitism masked as "anti-Zionism". As per the poster yesterday thinking you can just change the word from "Jew" to "Zionist" so that you can justify using stereotypical antisemitic tropes.
 
gfactor86 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sts-chanted-in-birmingham-university-protest/

See article. There's an image of some students on a University campus (with the largest Jewish body in the UK) holding a massive sign saying "Zionists off our campus". Apparently chanting "Death to Zionists".

By your logic, this is not antisemitic. Because she says "Zionists", not "Jews". But Israel is the only Jewish state in the World. Most Jews in the diaspora have friends/family living in Israel, it is a place of immense significance to Jews around the world. So the two are inextricably linked.

The sign might as well just say "Jews off our campus", because the vast majority of Jews in the diaspora believe in the notion that Jewish people have the right to their own homeland and self-determination.

To me, it is just antisemitism masked as "anti-Zionism". As per the poster yesterday thinking you can just change the word from "Jew" to "Zionist" so that you can justify using stereotypical antisemitic tropes.
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The problem is that Israeli officials and their ardent supporters are so eager to use the antisemitism card, whenever Israel is criticized for their behavior. Instantly equating anti-Zionism to antisemitism does no good. Zionists and Jews are clearly not the same, even though there is of course a significant overlap. There are many Jews that are not Zionists, and there are many Zionists that are not Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to an ideology, which can be warranted. Antisemitism is opposition to a race/religion, which can not. And the people that are anti-Zionist, mostly do not view Zionism as merely the right to a Jewish state, but rather as a broader movement that includes settler colonialism and oppression of the Palestinian people.

Of course, there are bad actors that deliberately use anti-Zionism as a dog whistle for their hatred of Jews as well, but I honestly don't think that is what is generally happening at university campuses.
 


They've been killing Palestinians and shooting at the hospital for days because of this.
 
Giggsyking said:
Daylight executions in the WB live on camera.

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Wish I didn't watch that. It is really starting to take a toll on me this war. The disregard for decency, life, humanity is just unbelievable.
 
Mike Smalling said:
The problem is that Israeli officials and their ardent supporters are so eager to use the antisemitism card, whenever Israel is criticized for their behavior. Instantly equating anti-Zionism to antisemitism does no good. Zionists and Jews are clearly not the same, even though there is of course a significant overlap. There are many Jews that are not Zionists, and there are many Zionists that are not Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to an ideology, which can be warranted. Antisemitism is opposition to a race/religion, which can not. And the people that are anti-Zionist, mostly do not view Zionism as merely the right to a Jewish state, but rather as a broader movement that includes settler colonialism and oppression of the Palestinian people.

Of course, there are bad actors that deliberately use anti-Zionism as a dog whistle for their hatred of Jews as well, but I honestly don't think that is what is generally happening at university campuses.
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You're wasting your time because he won't change his. It's obvious to anyone without bias that anti-Zionism has nothing to do with opposition against jews or even Jewish statehood at this point. It's easy to weaponize definitions though and that's a tool too often used to curtail criticism. No matter the term or slogan used it's called anti-Semitic.

If there were no occupation or persecution involved there would be no anti-zionist movement. That's an inconvenient truth though for those pushing a defence. I personally prefer not to cite the term zionist as it's lazy anyway, better to call the state and government exactly what it is, a terrorist apartheid government.
 
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Smores said:
You're wasting your time because he won't change his. It's obvious to anyone without bias that anti-Zionism has nothing to do with opposition against jews or even Jewish statehood at this point. It's easy to weaponize definitions though and that's a tool too often used to curtail criticism. No matter the term or slogan used it's called anti-Semitic.

If there were no occupation or persecution involved there would be no anti-zionist movement. That's an inconvenient truth though for those pushing a defence. I personally prefer not to cite the term zionist as it's lazy anyway, better to call the state and government exactly what it is, a terrorist apartheid government.
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Yeah, I know. People don't tend to change their opinion or even apply a lot of nuance in this thread - most are dug into their positions.
 
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