Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[the_cliff]

That’s what they’re saying here as well. I think they’re still haggling over a few specifics before final confirmation.

Yup. Hopefully they can turn the ceasefire into something more permanent and cooler heads can prevail. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[berbatrick]

Just fyi, it has always been possible, and is still possible, to make US tax-deductible donations to "charities" that buy land and weapons for illegal settlements.

Yep. Your right this does seem to be the case. Which is depressing.

I guess they’ve seen the polling and heard the negative noises from Muslim Americans. I have no idea if this policy change will work.

A lot of the electoral rhetoric seems to be about Muslims, but Democrats rely on Jewish voters too, who heavily back the war and might be decisive in a state, just like Muslim voters in MI! Back before Trump and the associated hysteria, it was considered normal to have somewhat opposing interests among your base. Choosing one over the other was a part of politics, not attached with great moral exhortation of "you must vote for the guy who turned on you."

 

[Giggsyking]

I am sick of these people. They simply don't see Palestanians as humans.

 

[Giggsyking]

Yes Tariq, come we want to talk and listen to the stories of your 90 family members who have been killed, we care about you Tariq.

 

[Giggsyking]

 

[Idxomer]

 

[berbatrick]

Israel policy is like Right Wing Castro if he had nukes, would be so awesome to have an untouchable above-criticism state on the other side with 24*7 no-fecks given bombing

 

[Sweet Square]

Will it bring back the dead babies? Once that happens (and of course a chilly feeling in hell) then Muslims (and non Muslim humans with a soul) will vote for Genocide Joe again. Or Genocide Dems.

I can’t see this “new” policy change working and tbh it shouldn’t. If I was a American Arab or
Muslim voter there would be no chance of me voting for Biden.

Back before Trump and the associated hysteria, it was considered normal to have somewhat opposing interests among your base. Choosing one over the other was a part of politics, not attached with great moral exhortation of "you must vote for the guy who turned on you."

It will be interesting to see if moral exhortation can last one more election cycle(The polling seems to show that it can’t).

 

[Idxomer]

Not sure if mentioned on here but Al Jazeera is reporting that Israel has agreed to a ceasefire and Hamas are showing signs of agreeing too.

I don't think their government has agreed to anything. I wouldn't believe any of those leaks till something substantial happens. They have been going on for weeks. A lot of it is to relieve the pressure off the Israeli-American side.

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Sweet Square]

More than 800 serving officials in the US and Europe have signed a statement warning that their own governments' policies on the Israel-Gaza war could amount to "grave violations of international law".
The "transatlantic statement", a copy of which was passed to the BBC, says their administrations risk being complicit in "one of the worst human catastrophes of this century" but that their expert advice has been sidelined.
It is the latest sign of significant levels of dissent within the governments of some of Israel's key Western allies.
One signatory to the statement, a US government official with more than 25 years' national security experience, told the BBC of the "continued dismissal" of their concerns.
"The voices of those who understand the region and the dynamics were not listened to," said the official." What's really different here is we're not failing to prevent something, we're actively complicit. That is fundamentally different from any other situation I can recall," added the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68177357

.

 

[Amir]

Fear has been the leitmotiv of Israel's policy towards the Palestinians since 1948.

It absolutely dreads them. Every single step, every single law, every single political discourse, every single military operation in the past 75 years is a direct consequence of it. And when you let fear drive your actions, there's no happy ending.

A tragic irony.

Netanyahu thrives on fear. Fear of the Arabs (those who are Israeli as well) and hate of his political rivals in Israel is what drives his base.

 

[maniak]

Netanyahu thrives on fear. Fear of the Arabs (those who are Israeli as well) and hate of his political rivals in Israel is what drives his base.

Israel is a democracy, the voters need to take some of the blame.

 

[the_cliff]

I don't think their government has agreed to anything. I wouldn't believe any of those leaks till something substantial happens. They have been going on for weeks. A lot of it is to relieve the pressure off the Israeli-American side.

Oh this is the report coming from the Arab side (Al Jazeera), they claim the hold up is more on Hamas than Israel. Hamas probably wants something more in the negotiations. I'm not surprised that Israel agreed to a ceasefire considering what happened with the Philadelphi corridor in negotiations with Egypt. I don't think Israel at this point in time are ready for war with Egypt and vice versa. Egypt will not under any circumstances give Israel control over it and if Israel tried to forcefully take it that would mean the camp David accords are all but broken.

 

[That_Bloke]

Netanyahu thrives on fear. Fear of the Arabs (those who are Israeli as well) and hate of his political rivals in Israel is what drives his base.

It's an old trick but it works every single time, especially when people know very little about the "enemy". It's not only limited to Israel, mind. Fear and the hatred born out of it are spreading everywhere right now.

People just never learn and history keeps repeating itself, that's what I find incredibly sad.

 

[Idxomer]

Oh this is the report coming from the Arab side (Al Jazeera), they claim the hold up is more on Hamas than Israel. Hamas probably wants something more in the negotiations. I'm not surprised that Israel agreed to a ceasefire considering what happened with the Philadelphi corridor in negotiations with Egypt. I don't think Israel at this point in time are ready for war with Egypt and vice versa. Egypt will not under any circumstances give Israel control over it and if Israel tried to forcefully take it that would mean the camp David accords are all but broken.

Yeah, Hamas has a proposal which isn't the first time that has happened. It's stronger talks than before but I don't expect they will agree to it unless there's a clear indication it would translate to a permanent ceasefire.

The Netanyahu government still hasn't agreed on it either, not officially anyway and there ae always threats from the likes of Ben Gvir that he would bring down the government if they agreed to stopping the war.

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Jazz]

God almighty will the US government just stop supporting the Israeli government. What is going on here? I knew Biden was full of shit long before he became president, but even I didn't think he'd go this far. He is deliberately accommodating this heinous situation.

I wish more countries would stand up to the US, but unfortunately, some of the most powerful countries seem to be all aboard as well. I really cannot get my head around such cruelty from the people in charge.

 

[Jazz]

And what is their obsession with always arresting children? How the hell can this be justified?

 

[maniak]

God almighty will the US government just stop supporting the Israeli government. What is going on here? I knew Biden was full of shit long before he became president, but even I didn't think he'd go this far. He is deliberately accommodating this heinous situation.

I wish more countries would stand up to the US, but unfortunately, some of the most powerful countries seem to be all aboard as well. I really cannot get my head around such cruelty from the people in charge.

If biden does the right thing americans will not vote for him apparently.

 

[the_cliff]

Yeah, Hamas has a proposal which isn't the first time that has happened. It's stronger talks than before but I don't expect they will agree to it unless there's a clear indication it would translate to a permanent ceasefire.

The Netanyahu government still hasn't agreed on it either, not officially anyway and there ae always threats from the likes of Ben Gvir that he would bring down the government if they agreed to stopping the war.

I'm not sure what Israels end goal is here tbh. I think they probably want a ceasefire and the hostages but weren't expecting Egypt to be so against them taking the crossing. For all the talk about Iran, Egypt is by far the biggest threat to Israel.

God almighty will the US government just stop supporting the Israeli government. What is going on here? I knew Biden was full of shit long before he became president, but even I didn't think he'd go this far. He is deliberately accommodating this heinous situation.

I wish more countries would stand up to the US, but unfortunately, some of the most powerful countries seem to be all aboard as well. I really cannot get my head around such cruelty from the people in charge.

Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton. Despite the change in US government their foreign policy remains the same. Especially when it comes to Israel and that won't change anytime soon.

 

[Jazz]

If biden does the right thing americans will not vote for him apparently.

Nah. Most Americans want a ceasefire. In fact, he's tanking in the polls and this is one of the issue.

I still can't believe that out of the hundreds of millions of America they only have two aholes as serious presidential candidates in Biden and Trump. How the hell has it come to that?

 

[Jazz]

I'm not sure what Israels end goal is here tbh. I think they probably want a ceasefire and the hostages but weren't expecting Egypt to be so against them taking the crossing. For all the talk about Iran, Egypt is by far the biggest threat to Israel.


Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton. Despite the change in US government their foreign policy remains the same. Especially when it comes to Israel and that won't change anytime soon.

My question is why?

They almost prioritise Israel over the United States. Biden certainly does. It is bizarre the lengths they are going to, even spitting in the face of international law. Well I never want to hear them or most Western governments ever again talk about human rights or start accusing other countries of terrorism because I won't be listening. Bloody cruel hypocrites.

 

[Dumbstar]

Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton. Despite the change in US government their foreign policy remains the same. Especially when it comes to Israel and that won't change anytime soon.

If you list the biggest cnut from that list, Biden comes top, then Bush, then Obama, then Clinton. Trump is the the least biggest cnut. Would you believe it. Imho of course.

 

[Kaos]

My question is why?

They almost prioritise Israel over the United States. Biden certainly does. It is bizarre the lengths they are going to, even spitting in the face of international law. Well I never want to hear them or most Western governments ever again talk about human rights or start accusing other countries of terrorism because I won't be listening. Bloody cruel hypocrites.

In short - lobbying. AIPAC for one are incredibly powerful and too embedded within the US political system. The media is obviously overwhelmingly pro-Israeli, and then you have a base of Evangelical nutters who are convinced that Israel's ascension will speed up the rapture. Its considered mainstream political suicide to be critical of Israel. Its a mob/cartel mentality.

 

[Idxomer]

I'm not sure what Israels end goal is here tbh. I think they probably want a ceasefire and the hostages but weren't expecting Egypt to be so against them taking the crossing. For all the talk about Iran, Egypt is by far the biggest threat to Israel

I don't think that's the case, Egypt's threat has been neutralized for 46 years and that's not going to change anytime soon.

 

[Sweet Square]

My question is why?

They almost prioritise Israel over the United States. Biden certainly does.

The big reason is it’s a strategic ally in part of the world where the US is hated. Also Biden is the most pro Israel politician in the US. He’s so bad even Israeli right wingers have told him to calm down in the past.

 

[Idxomer]

And what is their obsession with always arresting children? How the hell can this be justified?

They basically don't see any Palestinian over 10 as a child.

 

[the_cliff]

My question is why?

They almost prioritise Israel over the United States. Biden certainly does. It is bizarre the lengths they are going to, even spitting in the face of international law. Well I never want to hear them or most Western governments ever again talk about human rights or start accusing other countries of terrorism because I won't be listening. Bloody cruel hypocrites.

In short - lobbying. AIPAC for one are incredibly powerful and too embedded within the US political system. The media is obviously overwhelmingly pro-Israeli, and then you have a base of Evangelical nutters who are convinced that Israel's ascension will speed up the rapture. Its considered mainstream political suicide to be critical of Israel. Its a mob/cartel mentality.

Was just about to reply and saw @Kaos post which basically explains it. Then you have people in congress that are Jews and are obviously sensitive to the Israeli cause. Biden has basically got Blinken (who's Jewish) running around doing damage control on behalf of Israel.

I don't think that's the case, Egypt has been a neutralized threat for 46 years and that's not going to change anytime soon.

I disagree. There's a reason why Israel have decided against taking Philadelphi corridor. Sisi is irrelevant if that happens, the generals will make sure of that.

 

[Idxomer]

 

[That_Bloke]

Israel is a democracy, the voters need to take some of the blame.

This line of thinking is exactly the kind of slippery slope that leads to make [insert whichever group one dislikes, disapproves, and/or is afraid of] a legitimate target for collective punishment and even genocide, so I'd be careful with that.

People aren't inherently bad or evil, bar a few exceptions. Since its inception, there's been an enormous amount of propaganda and indoctrination in Israel, starting with schools, to instil and cultivate the idea that there is no Palestine to speak of and there can be no peace with the Palestinians. For example, it is forbidden to teach or talk about the Nakba in schools. The Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular can never be trusted and will throttle you if given the slightest chance. So better keep your boot on their throat, no matter what.

Hence the pathological need to demonstrate might in order to deter any real or perceived hostile intent from the neighbours, especially the one that you currently occupy and intend to absorb in the long-term. If you add to that the millenia long traumatic past of the Jews and the countless persecutions they've been victim of, it's easy to understand where they coming from and how they felt after 10/7. To be clear, understanding is not justifying. However you can't solve a problem without coming to grips with what caused it in the first place.

One also has to take into account that Israel is a very young country, much like the Arab ones. What's happening in Israel/Palestine really isn't new if we roll back the centuries. The birth of a nation is a struggle, seldom bloodless or without extreme prejudice towards a group or even an entire population, accompanied by a thorough rewriting of History by the victor. It literally is a do or die, for both Palestine and Israel.

That's why I personally think that without a third party jumping in, one of the two sides is condemned to disappear, one way or or another. Given the current balance of power, the answer is pretty much obvious. The only question is are we going to sit and watch or eventually do something about it?

 

[maniak]

Nah. Most Americans want a ceasefire.

Since when do most americans get what they want?

 

[2mufc0]

It's an old trick but it works every single time, especially when people know very little about the "enemy". It's not only limited to Israel, mind. Fear and the hatred born out of it are spreading everywhere right now.

People just never learn and history keeps repeating itself, that's what I find incredibly sad.

Bad treatment of the Palestinians pre dates Netanyahu by a long time. This hate of Palestinians is embedded in Israeli's.

 

[VorZakone]

People will argue it's "bad optics" for Biden to be tough on Israel after the worst massacre in Israel's history. I've seen that argument made elsewhere (Reddit and such).

But the fundamental problem here is that October 7th in itself is not an isolated event. It's another round of violence in a conflict that's been going on for decades and one of the two sides is longing for a state of their own. As long as Israel actively tries to prevent a Palestinian state, we'll have more violence in the future. That's not to justify October 7th (obviously) but the problem here is bigger than October 7th. The problem is the Palestinians don't have their own state and are dominated and mistreated heavily by Israel.

The EU won't solve this. Russia won't solve it. China won't solve it. Iran won't solve it. American leadership is needed here.

 

[Amir]

Israel is a democracy, the voters need to take some of the blame.

You can say the same about voters in the US (voting for Trump) or the UK (voting for Brexit).

Unfornuately many people are... idiots?

 

[Amir]

The Netanyahu government still hasn't agreed on it either, not officially anyway and there ae always threats from the likes of Ben Gvir that he would bring down the government if they agreed to stopping the war.

I don't know where this one goes as Netanyahu is talking, as usual, in two voices: What he says publically is no to releasing thousands of terrorists or to agreeing a ceasefire. And yet, obviously, that is the only deal on the table and Israel clearly isn't walking away from it.

I'm not sure he's got the votes in his govenment to agree to such a deal though. And I'm not sure he actually wants the deal, as it might cost him his govenment. I don't know how he's going to maneuver this one.

 

[That_Bloke]

Bad treatment of the Palestinians pre dates Netanyahu by a long time. This hate of Palestinians is embedded in Israeli's.

I've never disputed that, on the contrary.

Occupation degrades the offender as much as the offended. Hate is born of fear and ignorance, and both have been carefully instilled for decades.

 

[Jazz]

@Kaos @Sweet Square

Thanks for the replies. I'm aware of the situation with AIPAC etc, but I'm still puzzled, seeing as more people are now able to see what is going on. Why would you then continue the same policy? Do they really think we're going to forget their complicity in this genocide? The IDF have been filming themselves committing criminal acts and US and their allies really believe that people aren't seeing this and being revolted by their actions?

I think with all the crimes being committed for all to see, that any other situation and they would have reversed course, if even just to save face for a while, but they are doubling down on their support so I have to believe there is something else going on that we just can't see. Israel depends on the US, there is no way, the United States can't reign them in if they wanted to and still maintain a relationship with them because like what is Israel going to do without all that US taxpayer money?

 

[Jazz]

I don't know where this one goes as Netanyahu is talking, as usual, in two voices: What he says publically is no to releasing thousands of terrorists or to agreeing a ceasefire. And yet, obviously, that is the only deal on the table and Israel clearly isn't walking away from it.

I'm not sure he's got the votes in his govenment to agree to such a deal though. And I'm not sure he actually wants the deal, as it might cost him his govenment. I don't know how he's going to maneuver this one.

And the women and children detained by the Israeli government? Is he saying no to releasing them too?

Children Amir, what the hell are they doing with children in prison? I have seen footage of them with a 4 year old boy as well. Is he classified as a terrorist too?

 

[africanspur]

If you list the biggest cnut from that list, Biden comes top, then Bush, then Obama, then Clinton. Trump is the the least biggest cnut. Would you believe it. Imho of course.

How have you come to that conclusion?