Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less



So UNRWA is the creation of US and Israel itself, never knew this, but I will need to double check on this.
 
Regarding UNRWA it is important to recognise that at least part of what is being criticised right now is not new. There have been controversies about textbooks for more than a decade. To what extent this agency is undermined by Hamas is difficult to say. It seems however evident that there is a clear political bias within the agency towards one side of the conflict.

Surely, the UN has enough resources that they could in cooperation with the ICRC come up with a more "neutral" aid agency for this conflict? In my view, it would be equally as intolerable and not in line with what the UN is supposed to be and do if the UNWRA was overwhelmingly pro-Israeli.
 
It's The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees.

If they aren't overwhelmingly pro-Palestinians, then there's something inherently wrong with them.
 
nimic said:
When are they going to have their "are we the baddies" moment?
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When the genocide is complete we'll have plenty of people telling us how it was a horrible mistake but they didn't know better at the time and now it's too late to make things right. They will be really sorry.
 
Idxomer said:
It's The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees.

If they aren't overwhelmingly pro-Palestinians, then there's something inherently wrong with them.
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I understand that sentiment, but they also work for the United Nations and therefore should be a bit more balanced in their approach. We will have to wait and see how big the Hamas influence actually ends up being, but at least from what I've read there has always been speculation that UN money ends up in Hamas' pockets - which is a tough look for the UN.
 
fecking hell, those hospital scenes are absolutely mind blowing.
 
Goldfiessli said:
I understand that sentiment, but they also work for the United Nations and therefore should be a bit more balanced in their approach. We will have to wait and see how big the Hamas influence actually ends up being, but at least from what I've read there has always been speculation that UN money ends up in Hamas' pockets - which is a tough look for the UN.
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Let's wait and see is a terrible approach when people are literally starving on the ground and all humanitarian organizations involved say this is one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes they've seen. In fact, I'd go even further and say than defunding this organization until we have all the info is basically helping israel with the ongoing genocide. These countries are complicit.
 
maniak said:
Let's wait and see is a terrible approach when people are literally starving on the ground and all humanitarian organizations involved say this is one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes they've seen. In fact, I'd go even further and say than defunding this organization until we have all the info is basically helping israel with the ongoing genocide. These countries are complicit.
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Again, I understand what you say, but the tough question that absolutely must be asked right now is how much of that UNWRA is going to the Palestinian people who suffer enormously (just to make this clear) and how much ends up in the pockets of Hamas?

I don't necessarily have a problem with these countries withholding financial aid to UNWRA if there is legitimate concern that this agency is no longer serving its purpose. What these countries should do however, is exploring alternative options as to how this money gets to the Palestinian people more efficiently.
 
Goldfiessli said:
Again, I understand what you say, but the tough question that absolutely must be asked right now is how much of that UNWRA is going to the Palestinian people who suffer enormously (just to make this clear) and how much ends up in the pockets of Hamas?

I don't necessarily have a problem with these countries withholding financial aid to UNWRA if there is legitimate concern that this agency is no longer serving its purpose. What these countries should do however, is exploring alternative options as to how this money gets to the Palestinian people more efficiently.
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I don't understand that point of view. If some of the money is going to hamas, it's no different that what's been happening for decades. If this turn out to be bullshit, you just condemned countless people to starve to death. So, until you know for sure either way, the logical thing to do is to keep sending the money, because one consequence is clearly much worse than the other.
 
Goldfiessli said:
I understand that sentiment, but they also work for the United Nations and therefore should be a bit more balanced in their approach. We will have to wait and see how big the Hamas influence actually ends up being, but at least from what I've read there has always been speculation that UN money ends up in Hamas' pockets - which is a tough look for the UN.
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I can understand your concern too but stopping aid to a starving, homeless, injured and increasingly diseased population at a time of continued war will do incalculable harm to that population. 2 million people are almost wholly dependent on the actions of the UNRWA and will suffer and die if those actions are prevented. Do all those humans somehow not count except as some platitudinous addendum that stresses "yes they suffer terribly but..." What is to stop investigations continuing while much needed aid continues to flow? Precisely why is it now, in the hour of Palestinians' greatest need, that these speculations must be dealt with and funding stopped?
 
maniak said:
I don't understand that point of view. If some of the money is going to hamas, it's no different that what's been happening for decades. If this turn out to be bullshit, you just condemned countless people to starve to death. So, until you know for sure either way, the logical thing to do is to keep sending the money, because one consequence is clearly much worse than the other.
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I totally agree that these Western countries should continue to send aid. But they need to make sure it gets there. IF the money goes to Hamas all you do is to extend the conflict and contribute to the human suffering in Gaza.

Ekkie Thump said:
I can understand your concern too but stopping aid to a starving, homeless, injured and increasingly diseased population at a time of continued war will do incalculable harm to that population. 2 million people are almost wholly dependent on the actions of the UNRWA and will suffer and die if those actions are prevented. Do all those humans somehow not count except as some platitudinous addendum that stresses "yes they suffer terribly but..." What is to stop investigations continuing while much needed aid continues to flow? Precisely why is it now, in the hour of Palestinians' greatest need, that these speculations must be dealt with and funding stopped?
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This is a good question. As I said these accusations against UNWRA have been going around for a long time. I'd say with all the humanitarian aid agencies that we have, surely there must be a way to get this money to the people who desperately need it, where the donor nations can be reasonably certain that it actually ends up there. I am not a big expert on international organisations in this field, but surely there must be alternative channels to the UNWRA within the UN context and outside of it.
 
Goldfiessli said:
Again, I understand what you say, but the tough question that absolutely must be asked right now is how much of that UNWRA is going to the Palestinian people who suffer enormously (just to make this clear) and how much ends up in the pockets of Hamas?

I don't necessarily have a problem with these countries withholding financial aid to UNWRA if there is legitimate concern that this agency is no longer serving its purpose. What these countries should do however, is exploring alternative options as to how this money gets to the Palestinian people more efficiently.
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It shouldn't come as a surprise if UN money ends up with Hamas given they were the defacto government in Gaza, so any aid and money would need to be administered by them, which would also make it vulnerable to being used as Hamas leaders saw fit. And since Hamas have always prioritized resources related to military objectives over civilian economic development of the strip, it shouldn't be a surprise that their people are not only embedded within aid organizations, but the aid itself is often being usurped of military purposes.
 
nimic said:
When are they going to have their "are we the baddies" moment?
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Recently saw some Jewish Israeli on twitter talking about how the UN enables the Palestinian fake "eternal refugee". I would say the lack of self-awareness is breathtaking...but I think it's simply that their enemy is not human. A *much* lesser life form. So that moment cannot come.
 
Goldfiessli said:
Again, I understand what you say, but the tough question that absolutely must be asked right now is how much of that UNWRA is going to the Palestinian people who suffer enormously (just to make this clear) and how much ends up in the pockets of Hamas?

I don't necessarily have a problem with these countries withholding financial aid to UNWRA if there is legitimate concern that this agency is no longer serving its purpose. What these countries should do however, is exploring alternative options as to how this money gets to the Palestinian people more efficiently.
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It is serving its purpose though, Palestinians depend on them extensively. To cut them off would be to essentially damn hundreds of thousands of them to a macabre reality without food, aid or medical care. To do it after the alleged culpability of a tiny minority of their members (I stress alleged considering Israel's own liberal relationship with the truth) is nothing but a cruel gesture that collectively punishes the entire population of Gaza. The fact that this information was supposedly known about for a while and only timely released after the ICJ preliminary rulings casts a very cynical light on the whole thing.

You cripple those organisations and you essentially leave the Palestinians at the human mercy of the Israelis, who deem them to be nothing but animals that need to be expelled from the territory they deem exclusively theirs. Those nations that callously and immediately ceased the funding claim they are desperate to minimise the suffering and cease this catastrophe, yet on top of refusing to back a ceasefire, they're now cutting off any aid lifelines for the Palestinians.
 
Goldfiessli said:
This is a good question. As I said these accusations against UNWRA have been going around for a long time. I'd say with all the humanitarian aid agencies that we have, surely there must be a way to get this money to the people who desperately need it, where the donor nations can be reasonably certain that it actually ends up there. I am not a big expert on international organisations in this field, but surely there must be alternative channels to the UNWRA within the UN context and outside of it.
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There are alternatives in an international context but not, I think, on the ground in Gaza, where UNWRA is a 13,000 people strong network of individuals. That sort of presence cannot simply be replaced overnight. Many of these people are specialists - nurses, doctors etc. It's hard to replace that sort of knowledge and skill base in the best of times let alone when you're trying to persuade folks to trap themselves in a warzone and let alone when it needs to be done overnight. As far as I can see there is simply no feasible shot term method of providing enough aid to Gazans without going through the agency with feet on the ground. The alternative would be months of disruption with no guarantee of success. It's also impossible for UNWRA to do what it does without locals. They provide so many basic long term services and outreach to Gazans due to the poverty of the populace and the nature of Israel's decades long blockade that a continuous, external presence of such magnitude would be impossible long term too. Refugee camps, hospitals, schools, social services, food kitchens, list goes on.

There is also the fact that as of right now we don't really know the veracity of the accusations, nor the extent should it be proven that these 12 individuals were involved in the atrocities of October 7th. I agree an investigation is warranted. I disagree that aid needs to be stopped. That seems fundamentally wrong to me, actively harmful in fact and seems to me to require taking at face value an accusation from an anything but disinterested party (the IDF). A party that itself hasn't exactly set new standards for truth telling.

The timing, too, is extremely suspicious to me. The day after the ICJ declares that Israel has a case to answer with respect to genocidal intention and acts Israel releases its accusations and it is these accusations that continue to dominate the headlines. It's too coincidental, too politically expedient for these actions to suddenly be of such import right now.
 
berbatrick said:
Recently saw some Jewish Israeli on twitter talking about how the UN enables the Palestinian fake "eternal refugee". I would say the lack of self-awareness is breathtaking...but I think it's simply that their enemy is not human. A *much* lesser life form. So that moment cannot come.
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Yep, this is a good thread about the whole thing. It has very little to do with Hamas.



https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1751511146970931544.html

Anyone advocating for the dismantling of the UNRWA isn't that far from calling for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
The timing, too, is extremely suspicious to me. The day after the ICJ declares that Israel has a case to answer with respect to genocidal intention and acts Israel releases its accusations and it is these accusations that continue to dominate the headlines. It's too coincidental, too politically expedient for these actions to suddenly be of such import right now.
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It's a distraction tactic that has been used several times already in the last few months and we keep falling for it every time.

The immediate goal of focusing on this single issue is to draw attention away from the ICJ ruling and the humanitarian disaster on the ground.
 
Idxomer said:
It's a distraction tactic that has been used several times already in the last few months and we keep falling for it every time.

The immediate goal of focusing on this single issue is to draw attention away from the ICJ ruling and the humanitarian disaster on the ground.
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You say we keep falling for it but it's more that the media are onboard with it. The majority of people are not digging deeper than their primary news source and largely these are just going along with the US/Israel discourse.

What hope is there for the oppressed when the oppressors can so easily control the narrative.
 
Smores said:
You say we keep falling for it but it's more that the media are onboard with it. The majority of people are not digging deeper than their primary news source and largely these are just going along with the US/Israel discourse.

What hope is there for the oppressed when the oppressors can so easily control the narrative.
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You aren't wrong on any of that.
 




I'm always skeptical about this type of announcement (and of Cameron) but this would be a welcome step in the right direction. Let's if it can withstand subsequent Israeli pressure. Imagine Netanyahu and the far right must be worried and fuming about this.
 
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Goldfiessli said:
Regarding UNRWA it is important to recognise that at least part of what is being criticised right now is not new. There have been controversies about textbooks for more than a decade. To what extent this agency is undermined by Hamas is difficult to say. It seems however evident that there is a clear political bias within the agency towards one side of the conflict.

Surely, the UN has enough resources that they could in cooperation with the ICRC come up with a more "neutral" aid agency for this conflict? In my view, it would be equally as intolerable and not in line with what the UN is supposed to be and do if the UNWRA was overwhelmingly pro-Israeli.
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By neutral you mean answer to Israel.
 
Goldfiessli said:
Again, I understand what you say, but the tough question that absolutely must be asked right now is how much of that UNWRA is going to the Palestinian people who suffer enormously (just to make this clear) and how much ends up in the pockets of Hamas?

I don't necessarily have a problem with these countries withholding financial aid to UNWRA if there is legitimate concern that this agency is no longer serving its purpose. What these countries should do however, is exploring alternative options as to how this money gets to the Palestinian people more efficiently.
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Brother you have the priorities all upside down. No, this is not the question we need at the moment when there is an ongoing starvation, these things should be done after the fog a war clears, doing it now have only one consequence which is helping the Israelis in starving the innocents.
 
Goldfiessli said:
Surely, the UN has enough resources that they could in cooperation with the ICRC come up with a more "neutral" aid agency for this conflict? In my view, it would be equally as intolerable and not in line with what the UN is supposed to be and do if the UNWRA was overwhelmingly pro-Israeli.
Click to expand...
 
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