Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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Until then, this is where the UN should be making themselves useful for once by pushing for some kind of international guardianship over Gaza for the time required to rebuild the region and to rebuild local institutions. That fat pig Guterres better not use any excuse to not do it because his predecessors have been done before. From memory, the UN gave the green light for KFOR to take control of peacekeeping in the aftermath of the war in Kosovo and until the country's security forces become self-suficient.

@Raoul, is this something you see as a possible long-term solution on the table? Or is it something that they are totally incapable of doing despite all precedents? Someone will have to step up to the plate anyway, whether that takes 10, 20 or 25 years.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Until then, this is where the UN should be making themselves useful for once by pushing for some kind of international guardianship over Gaza for the time required to rebuild the region and to rebuild local institutions. That fat pig Guterres better not use any excuse to not do it because his predecessors have been done before. From memory, the UN gave the green light for KFOR to take control of peacekeeping in the aftermath of the war in Kosovo and until the country's security forces become self-suficient.

@Raoul, is this something you see as a possible long-term solution on the table? Or is it something that they are totally incapable of doing despite all precedents? Someone will have to step up to the plate anyway, whether that takes 10, 20 or 25 years.
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It makes a lot of sense for the UN, ideally with regional Arab peacekeepers on the ground, to do that. Although, the Israelis obviously won't allow it since there seems to be a pretty unified position that the Israelis have to retain the "security envelope" around Gaza, which means their security protocols would frequently clash with those of UN peacekeepers. This is why (imo) I don't think the Israelis (or the US) would buy into such a situation, particularly in light of the frayed relations between the Israeli government and the head of the UN.
 
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maniak said:
Just curious, why don't you like him?
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For the same reason why I bear no sympathy for his 3 previous precedessors in their poor management of various conflicts and issues while they sat at the top of the United Nations, especially under Boutros Boutros during the 1990s. He should be proactive on the job and on equal measures.

Raoul said:
It makes a lot of sense for the UN, ideally with regional Arab peacekeepers on the ground, to do that. Although, the Israelis obviously won't allow it since there seems to be a pretty unified position that the Israelis have to retain the "security envelope" around Gaza, which means their security protocols would clash with those of UN peacekeepers. This is why (imo) I don't think the Israelis (or the US) would buy into such a situation, particularly in light of the frayed relations between the Israeli government and the head of the UN.
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Or the UN can send peacekeepers that are either unaligned and/or have a very solid record in those types of missions. Sending in a legion of Irish, Swiss, Austrians, Brazilians, Koreans and Japanese peacekeepers should be plenty good enough to get plenty of good press on all sides.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Or the UN can send peacekeepers that are either unaligned and/or have a very solid record in those types of missions. Sending in a legion of Irish, Swiss, Austrians, Brazilians, Koreans and Japanese peacekeepers should be plenty good enough to get plenty of good press on all sides.
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For the sake of the local population, I think it would make more sense to make sure the actual on the ground peacekeepers were from regional Arab states. Linguistically and culturally, it would be preferable imo. I'm sure a combination of Saudi, Egypt, UAE, and Jordan could do this on a temporary basis, perhaps by sector; similar to how the Soviets, American, Brits, and French did with post WW2 Berlin.
 
Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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You'd really have to wonder why Hamas might be polling well at the moment.
 
Conor said:
You'd really have to wonder why Hamas might be polling well at the moment.
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They had enough support to win the election in Gaza after Israel gave them back the strip and forcibly removed israels from the land. Of course I wouldnt be surprised if someone provided evidence it wasnt a free and fair election. I know though that would you are saying is that Hamas is popular because hatred (and well deserved) of Israel trumphs all else, but you also have to look at how fecking awful a radical islamic terrorist organisation is at looking after the wellbeing or their populace well mingled with the ideology that dying in Jihad sends you to the highest heaven in a split second.
 
maniak said:
Your insistence in referring twitter as the only source people have is evidence you have no arguments left but trying to discredit the sources. Unfortunately for you, the accusations of genocide and the reports of the numerous massacres and crimes are coming from some of the most reputable human rights organizations on the planet. I assume they're not making these reports based on twitter.

It's quite poor that as an israeli citizen you're not as outraged as the rest of us with the crimes your government is committing. Going by your posts, I think you don't even believe your country is committing genocide. That's what's really quite poor.
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A lot of the accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing are zionists telling on themselves. I like this account because it mostly just translates stuff from Hebrew newspapers.

Most of the other stuff is from Palestinian people and human rights organizations as you said on the ground. They are far closer to the ground and the reality than that poster will ever be.
 
I will ask once again, why was situation in Hamas-free West Bank for Palestinians untenable before October 7th? Because Hamas is obviously not the root of all issues in the area, rather a symptom of the way Palestinians were and are treated.
 
Gehrman said:
They had enough support to win the election in Gaza after Israel gave them back the strip and forcibly removed israels from the land. Of course I wouldnt be surprised if someone provided evidence it wasnt a free and fair election. I know though that would you are saying is that Hamas is popular because hatred (and well deserved) of Israel trumphs all else, but you also have to look at how fecking awful a radical islamic terrorist organisation is at looking after the wellbeing or their populace well mingled with the ideology that dying in Jihad sends you to the highest heaven in a split second.
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On the other hand you'd have to consider why people flock to voting for such an organisation at an election. Life wasn't exactly wonderful for Palestinians at the time Hamas were elected the government of Gaza. They were still under occupation, were still being oppressed by the Israelis on a daily basis, and the Fatah party had proven completely inept within the PA. The Palestinian people had opted for a secularist resistance for decades following the Nakba (long, long before Hamas even existed) until they were constantly undermined by Israel and its allies, to the point a heinous outfit like Hamas enjoyed support from an increasingly desperate population of Palestinians. Its an all too common lesson from History that Western powers fail to learn from. The whole 'Muslims gonna jihad' explanation is a lazy one at best.
 
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Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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So unless, you kill most of the Palestinians who lives in Gaza, they deserves to be under subjugation and control of another brutal occupation?
 
Bosnian_fan said:
I will ask once again, why was situation in Hamas-free West Bank for Palestinians untenable before October 7th? Because Hamas is obviously not the root of all issues in the area, rather a symptom of the way Palestinians were and are treated.
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This is a question I wish journalists would press the likes of Levy and Regev with whenever they subject us to their usual "We're only at War with Hamas!" verbal diarrhoea. Why have 500 Palestinians been murdered in the WB? Why is there more settler terrorism? And more pressingly why is nothing being done about it?

The Hamas excuse is a useful blanket excuse they're using to justify the statewide violence and murder of Palestinians.
 
Giggsyking said:
So unless, you kill most of the Palestinians who lives in Gaza, they deserves to be under subjugation and control of another brutal occupation?
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I didnt say anything about deserving, I said its unrealistic because the greater power in Israel are not going to to have Hamas on 2 sides.
 
Amir said:
I believe my country is killing tons of innocent people. Whether that is considered genocide by definition - I do not know. I know it's bad enough no matter how you call it.

I do not support this government at all, and normally I don't support my country when it comes to the Palestinian issue. Israel is the oppressor. But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
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It is not an excuse for the massacres and the profound destruction of Gaza nor a justification to understand your point of view in relation to your recent opinions.

Otherwise you are coming from the same ground that Hamas use, in how they justify their attack oct 7th in regard to the profound injustice and the massacres the Palestinians faced for the past 75 years.
 
Gehrman said:
I didnt say anything about deserving, I said its unrealistic because the greater power in Israel are not going to to have Hamas on 2 sides.
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They deserve the right of self determination as any other indigenous group of people to a land. What political party is active at the time is irrelevant. Now Hamas would not have been created in the first place if not for the injustice the Palestinians have suffered for the past 75 years.
 
Giggsyking said:
They deserve the right of self determination as any other indigenous group of people to a land. What political party is active at the time is irrelevant. Now Hamas would not have been created in the first place if not for the injustice the Palestinians have suffered for the past 75 years.
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And who is going to give it to them? Saying that a terrorist organisation being the prime ruler is irrelevant, is only irrelevant for all those who dont have something to lose from that.
 
Giggsyking said:
It is not an excuse for the massacres and the profound destruction of Gaza nor a justification to understand your point of view in relation to your recent opinions.

Otherwise you are coming from the same ground that Hamas use, in how they justify their attack oct 7th in regard to the profound injustice and the massacres the Palestinians faced for the past 75 years.
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Previously people here discussed what knowledge you can gain about a country you don't live in and a situation you see from afar.

Well, you can gain a lot of knowledge. But you can absolutely not understand what it feels to live it.
 
Gehrman said:
And who is going to give it to them? Saying that a terrorist organisation being the prime ruler is irrelevant, is only irrelevant for all those who dont have something to lose from that.
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No it is irrelevant because Hamas or not, the injustice and occupation would continue regardless of who is in power.
 
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Amir said:
Previously people here discussed what knowledge you can gain about a country you don't live in and a situation you see from afar.

Well, you can gain a lot of knowledge. But you can absolutely not understand what it feels to live it.
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By the same token would you know how it feels like to be a Palestinian Arab in your own country?
 


Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us.

The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings.

According to two sources, Israeli intelligence has no good independent measure of the total number of civilians the army killed in Gaza, making the Health Ministry's data their main source of information.

One reason for this is that officers conducted hundreds of AI-directed assassination strikes against suspected low-level Hamas operatives, usually by destroying entire homes and killing entire families – a practice we previously termed a 'mass assassination factory’. There was often no bomb damage assessment (BDA) for these strikes, meaning there was no check on who and how many civilians were killed. This routine post-strike check was skipped to 'save time'.

'I don’t know how many people I killed as collateral damage. We only check that information for senior Hamas targets,' one source said. 'In other cases I didn’t care. I immediately moved on to the next target. The focus was on creating as many targets as quickly as possible. That’s why I trust the Health Ministry in Gaza more than the IDF for these statistics. The army just doesn’t have the information.'
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Remember that the BBC still to this day uses "Hamas-run health Ministry" in all of their reports.
 
Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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Israel itself doesn't have a same fair leader though. You have a point in so much as Israel being the greater force will do whatever benefits them but that's just an explanation of reasoning and not a justification. The two are constantly confused in order to let third parties off from their humanitarian obligations to prevent states oppressing others. It's easy with Russia as they have a false reasoning where as we can understand some of Israels, yet neither Israel nor Russia are justified in their actions.

Amir above talks about the impact of Oct 7th on Israelis but the people of Gaza and the West Bank also have their traumas too. The reasoning of security can't apply to one state only or neither will ever be safe so outside forces are going to have to step in.

How you satisfy the revenge both sides feel they need is another matter. There needs to be some resolution but it's not going to happen with Hamas or Netanyahu being the key drivers.
 
Kaos said:
By the same token would you know how it feels like to be a Palestinian Arab in your own country?
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I believe he's talking about a previous chat about the differences between learning about something on twitter and actually being on the ground in the same place.
 
Sly said:
How can anyone justify or defend this?
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The question gets asked everyday, but there's never a proper answer. It's always:

A) But Hamas

B) What are Israel supposed to do

C) Is that source valid? I question this

And then just no coherent follow up until the question gets asked again
 
Gehrman said:
They had enough support to win the election in Gaza after Israel gave them back the strip and forcibly removed israels from the land. Of course I wouldnt be surprised if someone provided evidence it wasnt a free and fair election. I know though that would you are saying is that Hamas is popular because hatred (and well deserved) of Israel trumphs all else, but you also have to look at how fecking awful a radical islamic terrorist organisation is at looking after the wellbeing or their populace well mingled with the ideology that dying in Jihad sends you to the highest heaven in a split second.
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Your analysis is not only light-years off the mark but also as reductive and deep as a puddle.

The german media is doing an awesome job.
 
Gehrman said:
I dont care
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I think you could reasonably look to how quickly the Americans and Europeans are turning to the far right within their elections, based on their incredibly high standards of living becoming slightly less high (but still amongst the highest in the world).

Then extrapolate that to what Palestinians have been going through for decades. It's not exactly difficult to see why they turn out of desperation to groups like Hamas.
 
Gehrman said:
Im not sure whether my ex girlfriend who contacted me 2 years later and told me she had been raped ever would have forgiven me, if I had responded "that is weak evidence". Neither the women Ive met in life who have confided in me. Its not proof, but its merit as evidence, depends on the credibility of the victim, the accused and the occasion etc.
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And rightly so, if that is how you would have responded, with no precedent for such a claim.

I'm not sure the comparison really holds up though does it ? The very reason some people are casting doubt on it is precisely because of the credibility of the country claiming it. Within the same context, they have claimed 40 beheaded babies, a still unproven HQ under a hospital (which I imagine justifies the attack on every other single hospital since too) and that Israel are the vanguard of Western civilisation preventing attacks by Hamas on the West, even though (and willing to be proven wrong), as heinous as Hamas are, I don't think Hamas have ever struck outside of Israel/Palestine?

That is not to say that Hamas fighters are not capable of doing exactly that. I can completely and utterly believe that they could. It isn't to say they didn't commit atrocities. Even without the babies story or these stories, they clearly still committed horrific acts that day.

There is definite merit in the evidence. There is definite merit in further investigation. I hope the leaders of Hamas are brought to justice.

Some people have a reaction to it because there is a clear propaganda war from both sides. Israel has every interest in portraying Hamas as an ISIS style cult, ready to strike at a moments notice to bring down the west. A group so barbaric they would behead dozens of babies and rape en masse, playing football with a chopped off breast. The message then becomes clear. Any and all means (including ethnic cleansing, bombing civilians and yes, even bombing hospitals or schools) becomes fair game.

Regardless of the veracity of this particular story, Hamas clearly commit atrocities against Israelis and indeed it's own people as well.
 
africanspur said:
I think you could reasonably look to how quickly the Americans and Europeans are turning to the far right within their elections, based on their incredibly high standards of living becoming slightly less high (but still amongst the highest in the world).

Then extrapolate that to what Palestinians have been going through for decades. It's not exactly difficult to see why they turn out of desperation to groups like Hamas.
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1.2 million tibetans out of 6 million died in the invasion and annexation in Tibet, on top of many injured, mutilated and tortured. 6000 monasteries and temples were burned completely demolished. How many Tibetan terrorists have you ever heard off or Tibetan blowing up Chinese cafés, schoolbusses etc.

No not that the tibetans Buddhists way is the only way, just that its an example that it doesnt have to be that way or there are examples you can do better. But i think that the 2 state solution, which tbh isn't a guaranteed solution to peace, has been dead for a long time now and will be off the table for decades.
 
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Gehrman said:
1.2 million tibetans out of million died in the invasion and annexation, on top of many injured, mutilated and tortured. 6000 monasteries and temples were burned completely demolished. How many Tibetan terrorists have you ever heard off or Tibetan blowing up Chinese cafés, schoolbusses etc.

No not that the tibetans Buddhists way is the only way, just that its an example that it doesnt have to be that way or there are examples you can do better. But i think that the 2 state solution, which tbh isn't a guaranteed solution to peace, hasal been dead for a long time now and will be off the table for decades.
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At least they proved reincarnation!
 
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