Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Reading posts on Twitter will not make anyone an expert or even meaningfully informed on any subject, but why is it that so often with the Israeli Palestinian subject that people claim there is a unique complexity about it and that being on the ground gives them a unique vantage point that people who are not Israeli simply would never understand?

If I heard a Russian saying that I don't understand the good reasons they had to conduct such and such war crimes against Ukraine because I'm not in the country and don't understand their insecurity, I'd think it was ludicrous and a sign of the strength of their delusion. So why is anyone who shares a post documenting Israeli crimes or propaganda dismissed as 'not understanding the complexity'. Why is it that a person should be relegated to the status of knowing nothing just because they're not based there? Sometimes even from a distance it really is easy to see that a spade is actually a spade.
 
Idxomer said:


The countries that say Israel is NOT committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza:

Germany: Responsible for the 20th century’s first genocide in Namibia, the Holocaust and Nazi atrocities

UK: Responsible for imperial crimes all over the world including catastrophic famines in India, bloody crackdown against the Mau Mau uprising and the Amritsar Massacre

France: Responsible for the torture of many African nations and their people via colonialism, the blood of 1.5 million Algerians who gave their lives for Algeria’s independence

USA: Responsible for almost wiping out the Native American population, and countless hellish wars against the global south including Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and Korea

Global south countries, which were victims of US and European imperialism, side with South Africa in taking Israel to the ICJ and charging it with genocide against the Palestinian people.

History’s most genocidal countries are denying genocide in Gaza, while their victims are raising the alarm.
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Germany are the ones that I find the most appalling. The US is unsurprising and the UK was always going to follow behind the US.

Germany however, it is so obvious now that they learned absolutely nothing from the events of the Nazi regime. The holocaust is arguably the greatest tragedy in human history, without a doubt, but while it was the Jews who were massacred, it could have been any other ethnic group, they were just the ones who were best poised to be the targets (Which to be fair they have, unfortunately, been many times in history). The lesson that they should have learned was to not be complicit in the large scale murder of innocent civilians. That's the lesson that every nation should have learned from the holocaust, but Germany especially. The lesson they seemed to have learned instead was that they should not ever go against anything related to a Jewish entity.

You can say that what Israel is doing right now is wrong (It has gone past just 'wrong' a long time ago) while also continuing to support the existence and necessity of a Jewish state, which on the basis of history I agree with. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.
 
jadaba said:
Reading posts on Twitter will not make anyone an expert or even meaningfully informed on any subject, but why is it that so often with the Israeli Palestinian subject that people claim there is a unique complexity about it and that being on the ground gives them a unique vantage point that people who are not Israeli simply would never understand?

If I heard a Russian saying that I don't understand the good reasons they had to conduct such and such war crimes against Ukraine because I'm not in the country and don't understand their insecurity, I'd think it was ludicrous and a sign of the strength of their delusion. So why is anyone who shares a post documenting Israeli crimes or propaganda dismissed as 'not understanding the complexity'. Why is it that a person should be relegated to the status of knowing nothing just because they're not based there? Sometimes even from a distance it really is easy to see that a spade is actually a spade.
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Of course you can know a lot without being somewhere. How complete that knowledge is depends on the situation. Some ARE more complex than others.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
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I'd love to know what those backing the IDF at every corner in here think of these types of clips but they never respond.

If that was Russia they'd be (rightly) uproar. Here we'll get "it's complex" or "reality of war" bullshit. How low does your moral fibre need to be to gaslight yourself into being passive on such barbarism.
 
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Smores said:
I'd love to know what those backing the IDF at every corner in here think of these types of clips but they never respond.

If that was Russia they'd be (rightly) uproar. Here we'll get "it's complex" or "reality of war" bullshit. How low does your moral fibre need to be to gaslight yourself into being passive on such barbarism.
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A clear-cut case of ethnic cleansing and stealing land was being defended yesterday. We had someone earlier in the thread calling for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza for "their own sake". Numerous other bad takes could be highlighted and that's just on here but the answer to your question is "as low as you can't possibly imagine".
 
Idxomer said:
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It's incredible and depressing that they just keep going. I mean, what are the military goals they are ostensibly trying to achieve now? You would imagine that +3 months of utter death and destruction would have been enough to incapacitate Hamas in Gaza, but apparently not.

They seem drunk with power and bloodlust. Not sure what is going to stop them now, unless the US locate their balls.
 
maniak said:
Ami is lost, I can only imagine how insane the propaganda must be in israel right now.
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I mean it's a really fecked up country to live in, always on edge as things can kick off at any time. Constant military presence and check points in a lot of places, having a native population which they can't just get rid off (although they are trying) . Having to always look over your shoulder is not a stable way to live , especially knowing you are the main cause of it.

There's also probably a sense of guilt deep down with the ethnic cleansing that has happened and still ongoing.
 
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Mike Smalling said:
It's incredible and depressing that they just keep going. I mean, what are the military goals they are ostensibly trying to achieve now? You would imagine that +3 months of utter death and destruction would have been enough to incapacitate Hamas in Gaza, but apparently not.

They seem drunk with power and bloodlust. Not sure what is going to stop them now, unless the US locate their balls.
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So the alleged goal of this conflict straight from the horse's (US/Israel) mouth is firstly to rescue the hostages, and secondly to destroy Hamas. In respect to the former, they've managed to get a fair number of hostages killed by their own hand, while jeopardising the status of the remaining ones. And in respect to the latter it doesn't seem like they're close to dismantling Hamas, and have effectively recruited thousands more for them through their sheer barbarity in this onslaught.

Now the logical conclusion to derive from that is this campaign has been a failure for them when considering their intended objectives, but when you hear quasi-genocidal sentiments from members of their political establishment and armed forces, coupled to suggestions of 'relocating' Palestinians for security purposes and 'for their own benefit' as well as recently publicly shutting down any notion of a two state solution, you could also derive your own conclusions as to what their actual intended goals are, cynical or otherwise.
 
Smores said:
I'd love to know what those backing the IDF at every corner in here think of these types of clips but they never respond.

If that was Russia they'd be (rightly) uproar. Here we'll get "it's complex" or "reality of war" bullshit. How low does your moral fibre need to be to gaslight yourself into being passive on such barbarism.
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That the person, always, ALWAYS by dint of being Palestinian, deserves it.
 
Kaos said:
So the alleged goal of this conflict straight from the horse's (US/Israel) mouth is firstly to rescue the hostages, and secondly to destroy Hamas. In respect to the former, they've managed to get a fair number of hostages killed by their own hand, while jeopardising the status of the remaining ones. And in respect to the latter it doesn't seem like they're close to dismantling Hamas, and have effectively recruited thousands more for them through their sheer barbarity in this onslaught.

Now the logical conclusion to derive from that is this campaign has been a failure for them when considering their intended objectives, but when you hear quasi-genocidal sentiments from members of their political establishment and armed forces, coupled to suggestions of 'relocating' Palestinians for security purposes and 'for their own benefit' as well as recently publicly shutting down any notion of a two state solution, you could also derive your own conclusions as to what their actual intended goals are, cynical or otherwise.
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I enjoyed listening to Eylon Levy saying to Lewis Goodall that Israel shouldn't send food to Gaza as that food might end up in Hamas mouths/justifying the starvation of the Gazan population then - THEN - claiming Hamas are starving hostages.
 


This seems like a plausible exit strategy - it's not genocide, it's not ethnic cleansing, just a bit of territory taken, just a but more unlivable. The countries that matter will be on board.
 
Smores said:
I'd love to know what those backing the IDF at every corner in here think of these types of clips but they never respond.

If that was Russia they'd be (rightly) uproar. Here we'll get "it's complex" or "reality of war" bullshit. How low does your moral fibre need to be to gaslight yourself into being passive on such barbarism.
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It’s horrible, I don’t think your moral fibre has to be low to know it’s quite complex though. Looks to me like the IDF will shoot any potential threat white flag or not. If I was a Palestinian there’s no way I’d be risking what they were doing.

doesn’t excuse it though, it’s really shit by Israel.
 
fergieisold said:
It’s horrible, I don’t think your moral fibre has to be low to know it’s quite complex though.
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The conflict and all of its particulars can be quite complex. But there's not that much complexity when it comes to all these individual instances of war crimes and abuse. It is what it looks like.
 
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fergieisold said:
It’s horrible, I don’t think your moral fibre has to be low to know it’s quite complex though. Looks to me like the IDF will shoot any potential threat white flag or not. If I was a Palestinian there’s no way I’d be risking what they were doing.

doesn’t excuse it though, it’s really shit by Israel.
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Old women and children are not threats. People walking down a street aren't threats either. Or people trying to give medical attention to others. Or medical staff. Or journalists for that matter.

They just shoot them because they're Palestinians.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The conflict and all of its particulars can be quite complex. But there's not that much complexity when it comes to all these individual instances of war crimes and abuse. It is what it looks like.
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RedSky said:
Old women and children are not threats. People walking down a street aren't threats either. Or people trying to give medical attention to others. Or medical staff. Or journalists for that matter.

They just shoot them because they're Palestinians.
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Looking at the footage they seem miles away from any contact with the IDF. The guy should never have been shot. Having said that a white flag means very little, so people will focus on that and assume it means they shouldn’t be deemed a threat.
 
So basically, a few pages back we got the exactly same video. Once it is in Khan Yunis. Now it is Al Mawasi. Tomorrow it will be some other location. At least coordinate your propaganda better.
 
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VorZakone said:
These are all cheap shots. Non-Western countries have violent histories of their own and some have shown to be just as selective and hypocritical as the West.

They're on the right side on support for Palestinians. But so was the West in helping to kick Saddam out of Kuweit for example.
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Let me continue your sentence,
and then help him kill the shia abd kurd uprising few weeks later by letting him fly his helicopters (that was supposed to to be under the no fly zone) and kill thousands of iraqis in the north and south.

Why? because the gulf states didn't want him gone.

You will always get a catch moment with western powers involvement in other countries.

Have Saddam invaded an uninteresting poor country like Yemen, the west not only wouldn't do anything, but probably help (as we have seen in Yemen for the past 10 years).

But Kuwait and it's oil is a no no.
 
2mufc0 said:
I mean it's a really fecked up country to live in, always on edge as things can kick off at any time. Constant military presence and check points in a lot of places, having a native population which they can't just get rid off (although they are trying) . Having to always look over your shoulder is not a stable way to live , especially knowing you are the main cause of it.

There's also probably a sense of guilt deep down with the ethnic cleansing that has happened and still ongoing.
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It does sound fecked up.

Yet, it looks nothing like my life.
 
Amir said:
It does sound fecked up.

Yet, it looks nothing like my life.
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Well it's got you justifying child murder and ethnic cleansing, so close enough.
 
Giggsyking said:
But Kuwait and it's oil is a no no.
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Yeah this is the point, they never got involved with any country/leader unless it was in their interest. There are countless examples of propping up unsavoury characters as long as it benefited them. The meddling has never stopped and it's never because they were trying to do 'the right thing'.
 
Amir said:
Your insistance on this when you've no idea what I read, hear, see and is exposed to is evidence you have no idea what you are talking about. Which is similar to many people here, who think they know everything because they read it on Twitter.

It's quite poor.
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Your insistence in referring twitter as the only source people have is evidence you have no arguments left but trying to discredit the sources. Unfortunately for you, the accusations of genocide and the reports of the numerous massacres and crimes are coming from some of the most reputable human rights organizations on the planet. I assume they're not making these reports based on twitter.

It's quite poor that as an israeli citizen you're not as outraged as the rest of us with the crimes your government is committing. Going by your posts, I think you don't even believe your country is committing genocide. That's what's really quite poor.
 
How is it that every time I click into this thread there's some new lunatic justifying one of the most despicable things to happen in my life time? There are some truly horrible people on this forum.
 
the_cliff said:
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Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
 
maniak said:
It's quite poor that as an israeli citizen you're not as outraged as the rest of us with the crimes your government is committing. Going by your posts, I think you don't even believe your country is committing genocide. That's what's really quite poor.
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I believe my country is killing tons of innocent people. Whether that is considered genocide by definition - I do not know. I know it's bad enough no matter how you call it.

I do not support this government at all, and normally I don't support my country when it comes to the Palestinian issue. Israel is the oppressor. But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
 
Amir said:
But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
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Its a similar mentality to what a lot of folks in the US experienced across the political spectrum when 9/11 happened. A sort of collective trauma and ensuing bloodlust that galvanized citizens around the idea that the perpetrators had to be found/apprehended/killed, their infrastructure and funding decimated, and as many rules and norms as necessary broken along the way to make it happen. And obviously in retrospect many mistakes were made, which is what I suspect will be how Israelis look back at all of this in 10-20 years.
 
Amir said:
I believe my country is killing tons of innocent people. Whether that is considered genocide by definition - I do not know. I know it's bad enough no matter how you call it.

I do not support this government at all, and normally I don't support my country when it comes to the Palestinian issue. Israel is the oppressor. But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
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It's still a poor excuse.
 
Raoul said:
Its a similar mentality to what a lot of folks in the US experienced across the political spectrum when 9/11 happened. A sort of collective trauma and ensuing bloodlust that galvanized citizens around the idea that the perpetrators had to be found/apprehended/killed, their infrastructure and funding decimated, and as many rules and norms as necessary broken along the way to make it happen. And obviously in retrospect many mistakes were made, which is what I suspect will be how Israelis look back at all of this in 10-20 years.
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You're not wrong. It's clear the government has no plan for the foreseeable future and is just making it up as it goes along, which is why I'd like to see an end to the war with an agreement that will release the hostages.
 
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