Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza



This seems like a plausible exit strategy - it's not genocide, it's not ethnic cleansing, just a bit of territory taken, just a but more unlivable. The countries that matter will be on board.
 
Smores said:
I'd love to know what those backing the IDF at every corner in here think of these types of clips but they never respond.

If that was Russia they'd be (rightly) uproar. Here we'll get "it's complex" or "reality of war" bullshit. How low does your moral fibre need to be to gaslight yourself into being passive on such barbarism.
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It’s horrible, I don’t think your moral fibre has to be low to know it’s quite complex though. Looks to me like the IDF will shoot any potential threat white flag or not. If I was a Palestinian there’s no way I’d be risking what they were doing.

doesn’t excuse it though, it’s really shit by Israel.
 
fergieisold said:
It’s horrible, I don’t think your moral fibre has to be low to know it’s quite complex though.
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The conflict and all of its particulars can be quite complex. But there's not that much complexity when it comes to all these individual instances of war crimes and abuse. It is what it looks like.
 
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fergieisold said:
It’s horrible, I don’t think your moral fibre has to be low to know it’s quite complex though. Looks to me like the IDF will shoot any potential threat white flag or not. If I was a Palestinian there’s no way I’d be risking what they were doing.

doesn’t excuse it though, it’s really shit by Israel.
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Old women and children are not threats. People walking down a street aren't threats either. Or people trying to give medical attention to others. Or medical staff. Or journalists for that matter.

They just shoot them because they're Palestinians.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The conflict and all of its particulars can be quite complex. But there's not that much complexity when it comes to all these individual instances of war crimes and abuse. It is what it looks like.
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RedSky said:
Old women and children are not threats. People walking down a street aren't threats either. Or people trying to give medical attention to others. Or medical staff. Or journalists for that matter.

They just shoot them because they're Palestinians.
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Looking at the footage they seem miles away from any contact with the IDF. The guy should never have been shot. Having said that a white flag means very little, so people will focus on that and assume it means they shouldn’t be deemed a threat.
 
So basically, a few pages back we got the exactly same video. Once it is in Khan Yunis. Now it is Al Mawasi. Tomorrow it will be some other location. At least coordinate your propaganda better.
 
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VorZakone said:
These are all cheap shots. Non-Western countries have violent histories of their own and some have shown to be just as selective and hypocritical as the West.

They're on the right side on support for Palestinians. But so was the West in helping to kick Saddam out of Kuweit for example.
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Let me continue your sentence,
and then help him kill the shia abd kurd uprising few weeks later by letting him fly his helicopters (that was supposed to to be under the no fly zone) and kill thousands of iraqis in the north and south.

Why? because the gulf states didn't want him gone.

You will always get a catch moment with western powers involvement in other countries.

Have Saddam invaded an uninteresting poor country like Yemen, the west not only wouldn't do anything, but probably help (as we have seen in Yemen for the past 10 years).

But Kuwait and it's oil is a no no.
 
2mufc0 said:
I mean it's a really fecked up country to live in, always on edge as things can kick off at any time. Constant military presence and check points in a lot of places, having a native population which they can't just get rid off (although they are trying) . Having to always look over your shoulder is not a stable way to live , especially knowing you are the main cause of it.

There's also probably a sense of guilt deep down with the ethnic cleansing that has happened and still ongoing.
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It does sound fecked up.

Yet, it looks nothing like my life.
 
Amir said:
It does sound fecked up.

Yet, it looks nothing like my life.
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Well it's got you justifying child murder and ethnic cleansing, so close enough.
 
Giggsyking said:
But Kuwait and it's oil is a no no.
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Yeah this is the point, they never got involved with any country/leader unless it was in their interest. There are countless examples of propping up unsavoury characters as long as it benefited them. The meddling has never stopped and it's never because they were trying to do 'the right thing'.
 
Amir said:
Your insistance on this when you've no idea what I read, hear, see and is exposed to is evidence you have no idea what you are talking about. Which is similar to many people here, who think they know everything because they read it on Twitter.

It's quite poor.
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Your insistence in referring twitter as the only source people have is evidence you have no arguments left but trying to discredit the sources. Unfortunately for you, the accusations of genocide and the reports of the numerous massacres and crimes are coming from some of the most reputable human rights organizations on the planet. I assume they're not making these reports based on twitter.

It's quite poor that as an israeli citizen you're not as outraged as the rest of us with the crimes your government is committing. Going by your posts, I think you don't even believe your country is committing genocide. That's what's really quite poor.
 
How is it that every time I click into this thread there's some new lunatic justifying one of the most despicable things to happen in my life time? There are some truly horrible people on this forum.
 
the_cliff said:
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Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
 
maniak said:
It's quite poor that as an israeli citizen you're not as outraged as the rest of us with the crimes your government is committing. Going by your posts, I think you don't even believe your country is committing genocide. That's what's really quite poor.
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I believe my country is killing tons of innocent people. Whether that is considered genocide by definition - I do not know. I know it's bad enough no matter how you call it.

I do not support this government at all, and normally I don't support my country when it comes to the Palestinian issue. Israel is the oppressor. But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
 
Amir said:
But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
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Its a similar mentality to what a lot of folks in the US experienced across the political spectrum when 9/11 happened. A sort of collective trauma and ensuing bloodlust that galvanized citizens around the idea that the perpetrators had to be found/apprehended/killed, their infrastructure and funding decimated, and as many rules and norms as necessary broken along the way to make it happen. And obviously in retrospect many mistakes were made, which is what I suspect will be how Israelis look back at all of this in 10-20 years.
 
Amir said:
I believe my country is killing tons of innocent people. Whether that is considered genocide by definition - I do not know. I know it's bad enough no matter how you call it.

I do not support this government at all, and normally I don't support my country when it comes to the Palestinian issue. Israel is the oppressor. But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
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It's still a poor excuse.
 
Raoul said:
Its a similar mentality to what a lot of folks in the US experienced across the political spectrum when 9/11 happened. A sort of collective trauma and ensuing bloodlust that galvanized citizens around the idea that the perpetrators had to be found/apprehended/killed, their infrastructure and funding decimated, and as many rules and norms as necessary broken along the way to make it happen. And obviously in retrospect many mistakes were made, which is what I suspect will be how Israelis look back at all of this in 10-20 years.
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You're not wrong. It's clear the government has no plan for the foreseeable future and is just making it up as it goes along, which is why I'd like to see an end to the war with an agreement that will release the hostages.
 
Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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Until then, this is where the UN should be making themselves useful for once by pushing for some kind of international guardianship over Gaza for the time required to rebuild the region and to rebuild local institutions. That fat pig Guterres better not use any excuse to not do it because his predecessors have been done before. From memory, the UN gave the green light for KFOR to take control of peacekeeping in the aftermath of the war in Kosovo and until the country's security forces become self-suficient.

@Raoul, is this something you see as a possible long-term solution on the table? Or is it something that they are totally incapable of doing despite all precedents? Someone will have to step up to the plate anyway, whether that takes 10, 20 or 25 years.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Until then, this is where the UN should be making themselves useful for once by pushing for some kind of international guardianship over Gaza for the time required to rebuild the region and to rebuild local institutions. That fat pig Guterres better not use any excuse to not do it because his predecessors have been done before. From memory, the UN gave the green light for KFOR to take control of peacekeeping in the aftermath of the war in Kosovo and until the country's security forces become self-suficient.

@Raoul, is this something you see as a possible long-term solution on the table? Or is it something that they are totally incapable of doing despite all precedents? Someone will have to step up to the plate anyway, whether that takes 10, 20 or 25 years.
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It makes a lot of sense for the UN, ideally with regional Arab peacekeepers on the ground, to do that. Although, the Israelis obviously won't allow it since there seems to be a pretty unified position that the Israelis have to retain the "security envelope" around Gaza, which means their security protocols would frequently clash with those of UN peacekeepers. This is why (imo) I don't think the Israelis (or the US) would buy into such a situation, particularly in light of the frayed relations between the Israeli government and the head of the UN.
 
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maniak said:
Just curious, why don't you like him?
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For the same reason why I bear no sympathy for his 3 previous precedessors in their poor management of various conflicts and issues while they sat at the top of the United Nations, especially under Boutros Boutros during the 1990s. He should be proactive on the job and on equal measures.

Raoul said:
It makes a lot of sense for the UN, ideally with regional Arab peacekeepers on the ground, to do that. Although, the Israelis obviously won't allow it since there seems to be a pretty unified position that the Israelis have to retain the "security envelope" around Gaza, which means their security protocols would clash with those of UN peacekeepers. This is why (imo) I don't think the Israelis (or the US) would buy into such a situation, particularly in light of the frayed relations between the Israeli government and the head of the UN.
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Or the UN can send peacekeepers that are either unaligned and/or have a very solid record in those types of missions. Sending in a legion of Irish, Swiss, Austrians, Brazilians, Koreans and Japanese peacekeepers should be plenty good enough to get plenty of good press on all sides.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Or the UN can send peacekeepers that are either unaligned and/or have a very solid record in those types of missions. Sending in a legion of Irish, Swiss, Austrians, Brazilians, Koreans and Japanese peacekeepers should be plenty good enough to get plenty of good press on all sides.
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For the sake of the local population, I think it would make more sense to make sure the actual on the ground peacekeepers were from regional Arab states. Linguistically and culturally, it would be preferable imo. I'm sure a combination of Saudi, Egypt, UAE, and Jordan could do this on a temporary basis, perhaps by sector; similar to how the Soviets, American, Brits, and French did with post WW2 Berlin.
 
Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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You'd really have to wonder why Hamas might be polling well at the moment.
 
Conor said:
You'd really have to wonder why Hamas might be polling well at the moment.
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They had enough support to win the election in Gaza after Israel gave them back the strip and forcibly removed israels from the land. Of course I wouldnt be surprised if someone provided evidence it wasnt a free and fair election. I know though that would you are saying is that Hamas is popular because hatred (and well deserved) of Israel trumphs all else, but you also have to look at how fecking awful a radical islamic terrorist organisation is at looking after the wellbeing or their populace well mingled with the ideology that dying in Jihad sends you to the highest heaven in a split second.
 
maniak said:
Your insistence in referring twitter as the only source people have is evidence you have no arguments left but trying to discredit the sources. Unfortunately for you, the accusations of genocide and the reports of the numerous massacres and crimes are coming from some of the most reputable human rights organizations on the planet. I assume they're not making these reports based on twitter.

It's quite poor that as an israeli citizen you're not as outraged as the rest of us with the crimes your government is committing. Going by your posts, I think you don't even believe your country is committing genocide. That's what's really quite poor.
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A lot of the accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing are zionists telling on themselves. I like this account because it mostly just translates stuff from Hebrew newspapers.

Most of the other stuff is from Palestinian people and human rights organizations as you said on the ground. They are far closer to the ground and the reality than that poster will ever be.
 
I will ask once again, why was situation in Hamas-free West Bank for Palestinians untenable before October 7th? Because Hamas is obviously not the root of all issues in the area, rather a symptom of the way Palestinians were and are treated.
 
Gehrman said:
They had enough support to win the election in Gaza after Israel gave them back the strip and forcibly removed israels from the land. Of course I wouldnt be surprised if someone provided evidence it wasnt a free and fair election. I know though that would you are saying is that Hamas is popular because hatred (and well deserved) of Israel trumphs all else, but you also have to look at how fecking awful a radical islamic terrorist organisation is at looking after the wellbeing or their populace well mingled with the ideology that dying in Jihad sends you to the highest heaven in a split second.
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On the other hand you'd have to consider why people flock to voting for such an organisation at an election. Life wasn't exactly wonderful for Palestinians at the time Hamas were elected the government of Gaza. They were still under occupation, were still being oppressed by the Israelis on a daily basis, and the Fatah party had proven completely inept within the PA. The Palestinian people had opted for a secularist resistance for decades following the Nakba (long, long before Hamas even existed) until they were constantly undermined by Israel and its allies, to the point a heinous outfit like Hamas enjoyed support from an increasingly desperate population of Palestinians. Its an all too common lesson from History that Western powers fail to learn from. The whole 'Muslims gonna jihad' explanation is a lazy one at best.
 
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Gehrman said:
Considering that Hamas would win a overwhelming victory in a democratic election according to polls in the west bank its not surprising why Israel wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot for that. If you get sane fair leaders on both sides it might become realistic.
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So unless, you kill most of the Palestinians who lives in Gaza, they deserves to be under subjugation and control of another brutal occupation?
 
Bosnian_fan said:
I will ask once again, why was situation in Hamas-free West Bank for Palestinians untenable before October 7th? Because Hamas is obviously not the root of all issues in the area, rather a symptom of the way Palestinians were and are treated.
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This is a question I wish journalists would press the likes of Levy and Regev with whenever they subject us to their usual "We're only at War with Hamas!" verbal diarrhoea. Why have 500 Palestinians been murdered in the WB? Why is there more settler terrorism? And more pressingly why is nothing being done about it?

The Hamas excuse is a useful blanket excuse they're using to justify the statewide violence and murder of Palestinians.
 
Giggsyking said:
So unless, you kill most of the Palestinians who lives in Gaza, they deserves to be under subjugation and control of another brutal occupation?
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I didnt say anything about deserving, I said its unrealistic because the greater power in Israel are not going to to have Hamas on 2 sides.
 
Amir said:
I believe my country is killing tons of innocent people. Whether that is considered genocide by definition - I do not know. I know it's bad enough no matter how you call it.

I do not support this government at all, and normally I don't support my country when it comes to the Palestinian issue. Israel is the oppressor. But I think people here are not - cannot, and it's understandable - realize just how shocking the October 7 attacks were on Israelis, including lefties like myself.
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It is not an excuse for the massacres and the profound destruction of Gaza nor a justification to understand your point of view in relation to your recent opinions.

Otherwise you are coming from the same ground that Hamas use, in how they justify their attack oct 7th in regard to the profound injustice and the massacres the Palestinians faced for the past 75 years.
 
Gehrman said:
I didnt say anything about deserving, I said its unrealistic because the greater power in Israel are not going to to have Hamas on 2 sides.
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They deserve the right of self determination as any other indigenous group of people to a land. What political party is active at the time is irrelevant. Now Hamas would not have been created in the first place if not for the injustice the Palestinians have suffered for the past 75 years.
 
Giggsyking said:
They deserve the right of self determination as any other indigenous group of people to a land. What political party is active at the time is irrelevant. Now Hamas would not have been created in the first place if not for the injustice the Palestinians have suffered for the past 75 years.
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And who is going to give it to them? Saying that a terrorist organisation being the prime ruler is irrelevant, is only irrelevant for all those who dont have something to lose from that.
 
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