Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Wibble said:
You are very naive if you think Hamas didn't know and actively seek exactly the Israeli reaction they got. They don't give any more of a feck about the suffering of Palestinian civilians than Israel do.
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No, it's logical. It's nonsensical to believe they wanted all of those people dead and most of Gaza destroyed. You could also apply the same weak logic to the Netanyahu government. Did they ignore all intelligence on the Hamas attack and let the rave happen just to start a war, stay in power, and get rid of the Gazans once and for all?

And again bothsidesism never works on this issue at any time over the decades. Both sides aren't equally culpable no matter how much the mainstream Western media try to pretend otherwise.
 
Idxomer said:
No, it's logical. It's nonsensical to believe they wanted all of those people dead and most of Gaza destroyed. You could also apply the same weak logic to the Netanyahu government. Did they ignore all intelligence on the Hamas attack and let the rave happen just to start a war, stay in power, and get rid of the Gazans once and for all?
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You can't apply the same logic to the Netanyahu government, because you miss the difference between the two: Hamas are actors with unequivocal, unbound free will, whereas Israel / USA simply follow immutable laws, akin to gravity. You wouldn't ask a ball to not accelerate towards the ground if you threw it up in the air.
 
Idxomer said:
No, it's logical. It's nonsensical to believe they wanted all of those people dead and most of Gaza destroyed. You could also apply the same weak logic to the Netanyahu government. Did they ignore all intelligence on the Hamas attack and let the rave happen just to start a war, stay in power, and get rid of the Gazans once and for all?

And again bothsidesism never works on this issue at any time over the decades. Both sides aren't equally culpable no matter how much the mainstream Western media try to pretend otherwise.
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It's rubbish.

Hamas are political and religious fanatics who will let civilians pay any price on their behalf. Always have been and always will be.

And the culpability of each side is a complex and nuanced issue involving historical events. Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
 
MDFC Manager said:
#NotGenocide even though it's textbook genocide.
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"Who are we to judge" or some similar genocide justification.
Wibble said:
It's rubbish.

Hamas are political and religious fanatics who will let civilians pay any price on their behalf. Always have been and always will be.

And the culpability of each side is a complex and nuanced issue involving historical events. Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
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But the problem existed way before Hamas, for over fourty years actually. As a matter of fact, Hamas founding was a direct consequence of Palestinian basic rights not being respected in any way prior to Hamas formation.
 
Amir said:
Did Hamas not know that Israel would retaliate in a way that will harm citizens?
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Did Israel let the attack happen and harm their civilians to retaliate in a way they knew would cause the murder of thousands of children?
 
Bosnian_fan said:
"Who are we to judge" or some similar genocide justification.

But the problem existed way before Hamas, for over fourty years actually. As a matter of fact, Hamas founding was a direct consequence of Palestinian basic rights not being respected in any way prior to Hamas formation.
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Which still makes Hamas murderous political and religious fanatics who the world would would be well rid of.

You can believe that the British government behaved despicably in NI (they did) and in a United Ireland (I do at least in theory) and still think the Provisional IRA were a bunch of murderous twats.
 
Wibble said:
It's rubbish.

Hamas are political and religious fanatics who will let civilians pay any price on their behalf. Always have been and always will be.

And the culpability of each side is a complex and nuanced issue involving historical events. Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
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No, it's not. This is the biggest myth about this "conflict", the history is long and has a lot of events but it's not complex at all.

There's one side which is the oppressor and the other group is being oppressed. That's the case in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or anywhere else on that land for that matter.
 
Idxomer said:
No, it's not. This is the biggest myth about this "conflict", the history is long and has a lot of events but it's not complex at all.

There's one side which is the oppressor and the other group is being oppressed. That's the case in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or anywhere else on that land for that matter.
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If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestininans are far from the only players involved.
 
Wibble said:
Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
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Is anyone in this thread "simply supporting Hamas"?

I've seen a few comments in the last pages of people casting (unwarranted, IMO) doubt on some of the sexual assault accusations. I wouldn't really call that "simply supporting Hamas."
 
Wibble said:
If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestininans are far from the only players involved.
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The complexity is overstated and I didn't say it was simple. People always do that to defend the indefensible or equate both sides which ironically simplifies the issue for them.

I don't think you realize how tone-deaf your posts are and this discussion is becoming a bit pointless, so I'm gonna leave it here.
 
Wibble said:
If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestininans are far from the only players involved.
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I'm sorry but the insistence on the supposed 'complexity' of this conflict is nothing but a crutch to dilute the sheer one-sided oppression of it all.

One side is occupying the territory of the other, one side has refused to declare borders, one side is building illegal settlements with complete immunity and exercising apartheid in the occupied territories. One side has imposed an illegal blockade on a densely populated strip. And that same side is currently being governed by a regime that boasts about destroying the prospect of Palestinian statehood, and uses dehumanising language to downplay the suffering of the other. And these are all factual statements prior to October 7th.

There's nothing remotely complex about it. Those that fail to stomach those facts and crimes will downplay and dismiss them as part of the overarching 'complexity' of it all. The power of balance ultimately resides with Israel, their choices are either give the Palestinians their state in line with the 67 borders as per the UN consensus, or homogenise the territory completely by means of genocide or ethnic cleansing, or they could keep the status quo of opting for further subjugation and oppression. Right now its walking the tight rope between the latter two.
 
Kaos said:
I'm sorry but the insistence on the supposed 'complexity' of this conflict is nothing but a crutch to dilute the sheer one-sided oppression of it all.

One side is occupying the territory of the other, one side has refused to declare borders, one side is building illegal settlements with complete immunity and exercising apartheid in the occupied territories. One side has imposed an illegal blockade on a densely populated strip. And that same side is currently being governed by a regime that boasts about destroying the prospect of Palestinian statehood, and uses dehumanising language to downplay the suffering of the other. And these are all factual statements prior to October 7th.

There's nothing remotely complex about it. Those that fail to stomach those facts and crimes will downplay and dismiss them as part of the overarching 'complexity' of it all. The power of balance ultimately resides with Israel, their choices are either give the Palestinians their state in line with the 67 borders as per the UN consensus, or homogenise the territory completely by means of genocide or ethnic cleansing, or they could keep the status quo of opting for further subjugation and oppression. Right now its walking the tight rope between the latter two.
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Yep, and as the Arab countries gradually stopped their support to Palestinians after 1973, it's hardly even a conflict anymore.
 
Nazi regime and atrocities it has committed could also be tagged as "complicated" and "complex" in the same way really.

It is actually the same excuse I've seen used by fascist and nazi apologetics, and even the ones who supported Srebrenica genocide in my country or at least downplayed it. It is interesting how they all sound the same.

"It was way more complex than that".

By saying something is complex, you are essentially going down the road of giving oppressor the justification for what they are/were doing. Even if you are doing it unconciously, which I absolutely have no doubt most people here who say it are doing. I haven't seen many posters who enjoy evil, if any.

To clarify things further, I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, and will not look for any sort of excuses for them. They are to blame for all those victims they killed and tortured, but not for the Palestinian ones. If Gaza invasion is justified by what Hamas did on October 7th, than it's a mighty justification for all atrocities Hamas committed on that day too, because that day didn't somehow happen in vacuum.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
Nazi regime and atrocities it has committed could also be tagged as "complicated" and "complex" in the same way really.

It is actually the same excuse I've seen used by fascist and nazi apologetics, and even the ones who supported Srebrenica genocide in my country or at least downplayed it. It is interesting how they all sound the same.

"It was way more complex than that".

By saying something is complex, you are essentially going down the road of giving oppressor the justification for what they are/were doing. Even if you are doing it unconciously, which I absolutely have no doubt most people here who say it are doing. I haven't seen many posters who enjoy evil, if any.

To clarify things further, I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, and will not look for any sort of excuses for them. They are to blame for all those victims they killed and tortured, but not for the Palestinian ones. If Gaza invasion is justified by what Hamas did on October 7th, than it's a mighty justification for all atrocities Hamas committed on that day too, because that day didn't somehow happen in vacuum.
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All of the things you mention were the result of very complex situations. Accepting that doesn't justify immoral actions though.

Hamas are a shit stain on the underwear of humanity but that doesn't mean the huge civilian death to from the Israeli military action is justified.
 
Sweet Square said:
It really not complex at all.



It makes people feel better thinking it’s complex but it’s not.
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Amazing that a conflict so simple is still going on after 80+ years. Thank heavens itvisn't complex or we may never find a solution.

Oh wait...
 
Wibble said:
All of the things you mention were the result of very complex situations. Accepting that doesn't justify immoral actions though.

Hamas are a shit stain on the underwear of humanity but that doesn't mean the huge civilian death to from the Israeli military action is justified.
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Israel army obviously are a bigger stain though.
 




Not surprised by how many bad takes we get here with the type of propaganda people are exposed to and this is from the supposed "liberal" papers.
 
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Wibble said:
It is one thing being wary of propaganda but it seems unlikely in the extreme that rape as a weapon of war in the Hamas attack. There is far too much evidence despite the limited attempts to collect it.

I'm sure/know that the Israeli's have behaved abominably since the Hamas attack but we don't dismiss this because Hamas have also ramped up propaganda.
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The issue with me is the lack of consistency. Let's go through it.

Nov 19. Israeli diplomat claims: "We’ve sent letters and shared graphic documentation," Sarah Weiss Maudi, a senior diplomat and legal adviser in Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, told Fox News Digital. "Their silence is so deafening that it’s sickening," she said.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/unite...s-mutilation-murder-israeli-women-critics-say

Nov 30. A U.N. commission of inquiry investigating war crimes on both sides of the Israel-Hamas conflict will focus on sexual violence by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks on Israel and is about to launch an appeal for evidence, its chair told Reuters on Wednesday.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...s-sexual-violence-appeal-evidence-2023-11-29/

Dec 6. Again, Israel call for UN investigation
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/06/1217668564/israel-hamas-rape-sexual-violence-oct-7

Dec 6. UN responds. Repeatedly they asked for access to investigate, with no response:

Meanwhile, Turk highlighted that Israel itself had not responded to his repeated requests for access to investigate the allegations independently.

'He stressed that for weeks he had "asked the Israeli authorities... to deploy a team, my team, to monitor, document, investigate the issues of the horrific attacks on Israelis".

"I've repeated this call and I hope it will be heard but so far, I haven't received a response."
'
https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ccess-for-hamas-sexual-violence-investigation

Dec 10. Israel's UN Ambassador Gilad Erdan calls the UN commission to investigate sexual crimes an “anti-semitic committee” that is “incapable of conducting a fair probe” and added, “Israel will not cooperate in any way with such a discriminatory and antisemitic body.”

https://www.foxnews.com/world/fury-...hamas-sexual-atrocities-against-israeli-women

Dec 12. A group of bipartisan US Senators call on the UN to investigate:
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4355607-senators-press-un-investigate-hamas-sexual-violence/

Jan 5. Volker writes that he has made repeated requests to the Israeli government for access

In an email to PassBlue on Jan. 5, the office of Volker Turk, the UN high commissioner for human rights (OHCHR), said that he had “made repeated requests, in writing and orally” for the Israeli government to grant access to enable his office “to undertake most effectively the tasks associated with [Turk’s] mandate — including comprehensive investigation of human rights violations that have taken place both in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory, notably from 7 October 2023 onwards.”

"his office said their requests “have not received response to date.”

https://www.passblue.com/2024/01/09/un-envoy-on-sexual-violence-in-conflict-to-visit-israel/#

Jan 16. Israel forbids doctors from speaking to UN group investigating gender based crimes on Oct 7
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gover...g-to-un-group-investigating-oct-7-atrocities/

If the evidence is abundantly clear, why would they refuse to cooperate with the UN in their investigation?

Israel call several times for the UN to investigate, describing their behaviour as 'sickening'. When their BS had been called out, the UN are 'antisemitic'. With so much evidence would they not even respond to access requests from the UN? Why would they forbid their doctors speaking to the UN?

There is more evidence of misinformation and just blatant lies from Israel. So there is too much inconsistency in their behaviour to ignore. Add to that, the evidence can be found neutrally.

To see a state act like a child in this way is itself a telling sign.
 
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Amir said:
He didn't matter when he was foreign minister, as Netanyahu disregards that office and has his own people deal with foreign policies.

Now, Cohen isn't even the foreign minister. He's been replaced at the start of 2024 due to a rotation deal agreed a year ago.
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That was a mistake, it was Israel Katz who said it.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Its weak evidence.
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Im not sure whether my ex girlfriend who contacted me 2 years later after we broke up and told me she had been raped ever would have forgiven me, if I had responded "that is weak evidence". Neither the women Ive met in life who have confided in me. Its not proof, but its merit as evidence, depends on the credibility of the victim, the accused and the occasion etc.
 
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Wibble said:
If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestinians are far from the only players involved.
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There is no complexity at all. One people oppressed and the other are the oppressors.
 
relevant to the previous page discussion - hamas released a document claiming "faults" were made on ovt 7 due to the "speed of the collapse" of the border army

e - subsequent tweets seem to suggest they are open to a "fair and independent" investigation, possibly from the ICC
not sure how that will go for them!
...



 
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Gehrman said:
Im not sure whether my ex girlfriend who contacted me 2 years later after we broke up and told me she had been raped ever would have forgiven me, if I had responded "that is weak evidence". Neither the women Ive met in life who have confided in me. Its not proof, but its merit as evidence, depends on the credibility of the victim, the accused and the occasion etc.
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You know her, so totally different.

You also wouldn't stake your freedom on her telling you that over the phone, then go kill the guy. You'd perhaps want him arrested and put in trial where evidence could be shown. The prosecution wouldn't rely on witness testimony alone FFS.
 
Idxomer said:
Did Israel let the attack happen and harm their civilians to retaliate in a way they knew would cause the murder of thousands of children?
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I'm sure you don't think so.

But seriously, surely Hamas and just about everyone in the world who has his head screwed in knew that what happened would not be good for the population in Gaza.
 
Wibble said:
All of the things you mention were the result of very complex situations. Accepting that doesn't justify immoral actions though.

Hamas are a shit stain on the underwear of humanity but that doesn't mean the huge civilian death to from the Israeli military action is justified.
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So If Hamas is a shit stain on the the underwear of humanity, my question is what would you call the IDF after 50 years of occupation and brutality?
 
Kaos said:
I'm sorry but the insistence on the supposed 'complexity' of this conflict is nothing but a crutch to dilute the sheer one-sided oppression of it all.

One side is occupying the territory of the other, one side has refused to declare borders, one side is building illegal settlements with complete immunity and exercising apartheid in the occupied territories. One side has imposed an illegal blockade on a densely populated strip. And that same side is currently being governed by a regime that boasts about destroying the prospect of Palestinian statehood, and uses dehumanising language to downplay the suffering of the other. And these are all factual statements prior to October 7th.

There's nothing remotely complex about it. Those that fail to stomach those facts and crimes will downplay and dismiss them as part of the overarching 'complexity' of it all. The power of balance ultimately resides with Israel, their choices are either give the Palestinians their state in line with the 67 borders as per the UN consensus, or homogenise the territory completely by means of genocide or ethnic cleansing, or they could keep the status quo of opting for further subjugation and oppression. Right now its walking the tight rope between the latter two.
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Good post. The people that defend Israel refuse to talk about pre October 7th and how the British practically gave away a land that wasn't there's to give away to begin with.
 
the_cliff said:
Good post. The people that defend Israel refuse to talk about pre October 7th and how the British practically gave away a land that wasn't there's to give away to begin with.
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Just curious. Who was the sovereign on the land the British “gave away”?
 
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