Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

maniak said:
Funny how it's only with muslims that it's religious fanaticism.
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I don't disagree with many of your posts in this thread generally speaking,
but I had to ask, and I mean it in the nicest, most curious and polite way-

Have you ever been to Israel for a sustained period, or have been in the company of Israelis from a variety of sectors of the entire society?

I'm asking because you seem to make assumptions regarding the mindset of IDF soldiers who are fighting in Gaza while presumably living thousands of kilometers away...?

I (and every other Israeli) know many soldiers who either serve in the IDF today or have done so in the past decades.
I don't see religious fanaticism as a main motive for how most of them act in Gaza.

will to revenge- yes, us or them mentality- yes, dehumanization in some cases- yes. none of it has to do strictly with Judaism.

These soldiers wouldn't go to other Muslim countries and do what they do in Gaza if it was possible in some fecked-up scenario, even if nowadays many of these soldiers will say that they "hate all Muslims on earth".

And ordinary people from Yemen, Turkey, Pakistan, or what have you, would not march into Israeli towns and do what Hamas' men did on Oct 7th if it was possible. Most people won't do anything more than insult me because I'm an Israeli.
 
Giggsyking said:


Did Hamas ever conduct an attack outside the border of Israel/Palestine? Or have they ever said they are a global organization, I mean him sitting their talking shit, unchallenged is another level of idiocy. Hamas can be anything, but they certainly are not a global threat.
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The parallels between what the Israeli government are saying these days and certain other historical moments are really something.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
I don't disagree with many of your posts in this thread generally speaking,
but I had to ask, and I mean it in the nicest, most curious and polite way-

Have you ever been to Israel for a sustained period, or have been in the company of Israelis from a variety of sectors of the entire society?

I'm asking because you seem to make assumptions regarding the mindset of IDF soldiers who are fighting in Gaza while presumably living thousands of kilometers away...?

I (and every other Israeli) know many soldiers who either serve in the IDF today or have done so in the past decades.
I don't see religious fanaticism as a main motive for how most of them act in Gaza.

will to revenge- yes, us or them mentality- yes, dehumanization in some cases- yes. none of it has to do strictly with Judaism.

These soldiers wouldn't go to other Muslim countries and do what they do in Gaza if it was possible in some fecked-up scenario, even if nowadays many of these soldiers will say that they "hate all Muslims on earth".

And ordinary people from Yemen, Turkey, Pakistan, or what have you, would not march into Israeli towns and do what Hamas' men did on Oct 7th if it was possible. Most people won't do anything more than insult me because I'm an Israeli.
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I have never been to Israel and only met a handful of israelis, all very left wing and not very religious. So yeah, I can't claim to be an authority on the general mindset.

But the guy in the video that sparked this interaction is obviously using religious rhetoric to justify what he needs to do. And the problem when you say "I don't see religious fanaticism as a main motive for how most of them act in Gaza." is that you admit there are some with that mindset, at least partly. I believe Israel has around 200k active military personnel, so even if 1% are religiously motivated, that's a lot of people out in gaza deciding who lives or dies who may be fanatics.

When we add to this the numerous crimes committed in the last couple of months, it's obvious this is a problem, so dismissing it by saying it doesn't matter because these guys are just boots on the ground with no decision power is an obviously flawed approach. Now, as you said, this can be attributed to desire for revenge and the religious rhetoric is just a heat of the moment inspirational thing, but in that case we have to do the same when we talk about muslims, however, that rarely happens. Religious fanaticism is always the go to excuse.
 
maniak said:
I have never been to Israel and only met a handful of israelis, all very left wing and not very religious. So yeah, I can't claim to be an authority on the general mindset.

But the guy in the video that sparked this interaction is obviously using religious rhetoric to justify what he needs to do. And the problem when you say "I don't see religious fanaticism as a main motive for how most of them act in Gaza." is that you admit there are some with that mindset, at least partly. I believe Israel has around 200k active military personnel, so even if 1% are religiously motivated, that's a lot of people out in gaza deciding who lives or dies who may be fanatics.

When we add to this the numerous crimes committed in the last couple of months, it's obvious this is a problem, so dismissing it by saying it doesn't matter because these guys are just boots on the ground with no decision power is an obviously flawed approach. Now, as you said, this can be attributed to desire for revenge and the religious rhetoric is just a heat of the moment inspirational thing, but in that case we have to do the same when we talk about muslims, however, that rarely happens. Religious fanaticism is always the go to excuse.
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Ok, now I understand you better. and yes, it is one of the problems.
you will find that there is a major difference- a generalization for sure but I have to make a point- between Israelis who were born and raised here and those who 'made Aliyah' - who immigrated from their countries of origin to live in Israel. those who grew up abroad, some of them have and do experience antisemitism to an extent that "we Israelis" will never be exposed to, if at all. A lot of them develop a huge animosity toward Muslims in general.

I have a close friend from France, in his 60s. Met him online on a language exchange site. The way he speaks about Muslims... dear me. And the way he can't walk the streets of his little town on the outskirts of Paris identified as a Jew for fear of getting beaten which has happened to him before... :/

for people who were born here, the fear/hatred/dehumanization is directed at Palestinians mostly.

There's a huge raw right now regarding the return to work of Palestinian construction workers.
Israel doesn't have replacements for them, but many people are either scared shitless or categorize them all as the enemy.

I drove through an Arab village I'd never been to on my way to a tiny (Jewish) town the other day and was scared to my bones.
Drove by teenagers on their way back from school and was preparing to fight for my life, all sweating and swearing...

how sad, mad, and fecked up is that?

I sort of drifted here but anyway, I hope it's of some relevance to you :)
 
MDFC Manager said:
This 'war' was never about rescuing hostages or eliminating hamas. Land grabbing and money stealing is the only motive.
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Not necessarily the only motivation but rescuing hostages and eliminating Hama as high up on the list of Israeli motivations. That doesn't make the civilian toll right and it doesn't mean you approve of the Israeli reaction and actions.
 
3KDré said:


That guardian story is probably bollocks, just like the 40 beheaded babies story.
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It is one thing being wary of propaganda but it seems unlikely in the extreme that rape as a weapon of war in the Hamas attack. There is far too much evidence despite the limited attempts to collect it.

I'm sure/know that the Israeli's have behaved abominably since the Hamas attack but we don't dismiss this because Hamas have also ramped up propaganda.
 
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Wibble said:
Not necessarily the only motivation but rescuing hostages and eliminating Hama as high up on the list of Israeli motivations. That doesn't make the civilian toll right and it doesn't mean you approve of the Israeli reaction and actions.
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It's not the only motivation but generally, it's the main one. In the current bombardment, ethnic cleansing and deliberate collective punishment of the Gaza population is also a main motivation.

Rescuing the hostages on the other hand wasn't a high priority for either their government or their army. Their conduct from day one has made that pretty clear. Maybe that changed now with pressure ramping up from the hostages' families, but there's still not much evidence of them changing their conduct. Netanyahu also loved Hamas, and he probably still does because after all of that they are the only reason he's still in power.
 
Beans said:
What an odd thing to say.
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It's only odd when you consider the Palestinians (read Arabs/ Muslims) as fellow human beings.

When they're sub human, it's a perfectly logical thing to say and think.

It's also just incredibly dumb. You won't find middle eastern journalists as a whole criticising their governments because that doesn't go down well with men like Assad, Sisi or Bin Salman.
 
MDFC Manager said:
This 'war' was never about rescuing hostages or eliminating hamas. Land grabbing and money stealing is the only motive.
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I don't think either of those are the main motivations at all. The Israelis will be losing far more from being in a war economy and having rockets fired across their country than they gain from whatever paltry reserves Gazans have.

It's about revenge. And teaching the Palestinians as a whole an almighty lesson.

Hostages will be a big factor for many civilians I imagine but so far the IDF have killed more Hostages than they've rescued.

Netanyahu will be incentivised to keep this going as long as possible to delay his own judgement day.

Some of the religious extremists in the cabinet undoubtedly see it as an opportunity to ethnically cleanse both sections of land.
 
Wibble said:
It is one thing being wary of propaganda but it seems unlikely in the extreme that rape as a weapon of war in the Hamas attack. There is far too much evidence despite the limited attempts to collect it.

I'm sure/know that the Israeli's have behaved abominably since the Hamas attack but we don't dismiss this because Hamas have also ramped up propaganda.
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When I to my own regret have seen footage of Hamas soldiers screaming god is great inside a bomb shelter where they murdered a family, women, children and all, the idea that rape would be off the table and wouldnt happen in such a large scale attack sems very odd and naive to me. I don´t necessarily believe that they cut of a womens breasts at the peace festival and played football with it after they raped her. But as far as I can read their is plenty of forensic evidence, eyewitness accounts etc. Yes, its Israel collecting the evidence. Who else has the responsibility? And of course, im certain there are instances where there is Israli propaganda either in making something up or exaggerating, but in such a brutal and large attack I think you have to live in la la land to believe some of the victims werent subject to rape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
 
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Over the past three months, the Israeli military has been demanding the people of Gaza to evacuate to the Al-Mawasi region, located west of Khan Yunis. The Israeli regime claimed the area was a safe zone for Palestinian civilians, but the same area has been targeted by intense Israeli airstrikes and artillery shelling during the last 12 hours, resulting in dozens of casualties among the innocent population.
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Wibble said:
It is one thing being wary of propaganda but it seems unlikely in the extreme that rape as a weapon of war in the Hamas attack. There is far too much evidence despite the limited attempts to collect it.

I'm sure/know that the Israeli's have behaved abominably since the Hamas attack but we don't dismiss this because Hamas have also ramped up propaganda.
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What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
 
rotherham_red said:
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
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Testimony is evidence.
 
rotherham_red said:
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
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There is lots of evidence and far from all from official sources. The Guardian is Palestinian leaning in their reporting so no way would they publish that based merely on Israeli official propaganda talking points.

The Israeli actions since the attack (and many before) are inexcusable and despicable. However, the Hamas attack was also inexcusable and despicable with murder, kidnap, humiliation and rape used as a weapon of war to elicit the OTT Israeli reaction that Hamas were seeking.
 
Wibble said:
The Israeli actions since the attack (and many before) are inexcusable and despicable. However, the Hamas attack was also inexcusable and despicable with murder, kidnap, humiliation and rape used as a weapon of war to elicit the OTT Israeli reaction that Hamas were seeking.
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Yes, Hamas wanted thousands of children to be murdered. They wanted their people to be ethnically cleansed and every facet of their lives to be erased.

Your bothsidesism schtick isn't it, you aren't a CNN or a NYT reporter.
 
Idxomer said:
Yes, Hamas wanted thousands of children to be murdered. They wanted their people to be ethnically cleansed and every facet of their lives to be erased.

Your bothsidesism schtick isn't it, you aren't a CNN or a NYT reporter.
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You are very naive if you think Hamas didn't know and actively seek exactly the Israeli reaction they got. They don't give any more of a feck about the suffering of Palestinian civilians than Israel do. They are just collateral damage to Hamas.
 
MDFC Manager said:
This 'war' was never about rescuing hostages or eliminating hamas. Land grabbing and money stealing is the only motive.
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Idxomer said:
It's not the only motivation but generally, it's the main one. In the current bombardment, ethnic cleansing and deliberate collective punishment of the Gaza population is also a main motivation.
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You are very much mistaken.

While there are some people in Israel - and the government - who want Israelis to live in Gaza, they are a minority. As for stealing money - Come on, the war has caused great damage to Israel's economy.
 
Wibble said:
You are very naive if you think Hamas didn't know and actively seek exactly the Israeli reaction they got. They don't give any more of a feck about the suffering of Palestinian civilians than Israel do. They are just collateral damage to Hamas.
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Moreover, the entire Hamas experience has resulted in non-stop suffering for Gazans for the better part of the past two decades.
 
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Idxomer said:
How much does this guy matter?
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He didn't matter when he was foreign minister, as Netanyahu disregards that office and has his own people deal with foreign policies.

Now, Cohen isn't even the foreign minister. He's been replaced at the start of 2024 due to a rotation deal agreed a year ago.
 
rotherham_red said:
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
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How about the evidence released by Palestinian sources in real time as streaming video.

For instance, the video of the young Israeli woman with her hands bound behind her back and the seat of her pants soaked in blood being marched over and put in the back seat of a car and then young men crowding around the car and peering in.
 
Belisarius said:
How about the evidence released by Palestinian sources in real time as streaming video.

For instance, the video of the young Israeli woman with her hands bound behind her back and the seat of her pants soaked in blood being marched over and put in the back seat of a car and then young men crowding around the car and peering in.
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Heavy period?
 
Belisarius said:
For instance, the video of the young Israeli woman with her hands bound behind her back and the seat of her pants soaked in blood being marched over and put in the back seat of a car and then young men crowding around the car and peering in.
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She had fries with ketchup which spilled all over her.
 
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