Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

Wibble said:
It is one thing being wary of propaganda but it seems unlikely in the extreme that rape as a weapon of war in the Hamas attack. There is far too much evidence despite the limited attempts to collect it.

I'm sure/know that the Israeli's have behaved abominably since the Hamas attack but we don't dismiss this because Hamas have also ramped up propaganda.
Click to expand...

When I to my own regret have seen footage of Hamas soldiers screaming god is great inside a bomb shelter where they murdered a family, women, children and all, the idea that rape would be off the table and wouldnt happen in such a large scale attack sems very odd and naive to me. I don´t necessarily believe that they cut of a womens breasts at the peace festival and played football with it after they raped her. But as far as I can read their is plenty of forensic evidence, eyewitness accounts etc. Yes, its Israel collecting the evidence. Who else has the responsibility? And of course, im certain there are instances where there is Israli propaganda either in making something up or exaggerating, but in such a brutal and large attack I think you have to live in la la land to believe some of the victims werent subject to rape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
 
Last edited:




Over the past three months, the Israeli military has been demanding the people of Gaza to evacuate to the Al-Mawasi region, located west of Khan Yunis. The Israeli regime claimed the area was a safe zone for Palestinian civilians, but the same area has been targeted by intense Israeli airstrikes and artillery shelling during the last 12 hours, resulting in dozens of casualties among the innocent population.
Click to expand...
 
Wibble said:
It is one thing being wary of propaganda but it seems unlikely in the extreme that rape as a weapon of war in the Hamas attack. There is far too much evidence despite the limited attempts to collect it.

I'm sure/know that the Israeli's have behaved abominably since the Hamas attack but we don't dismiss this because Hamas have also ramped up propaganda.
Click to expand...
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
 
rotherham_red said:
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
Click to expand...

Testimony is evidence.
 
rotherham_red said:
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
Click to expand...

There is lots of evidence and far from all from official sources. The Guardian is Palestinian leaning in their reporting so no way would they publish that based merely on Israeli official propaganda talking points.

The Israeli actions since the attack (and many before) are inexcusable and despicable. However, the Hamas attack was also inexcusable and despicable with murder, kidnap, humiliation and rape used as a weapon of war to elicit the OTT Israeli reaction that Hamas were seeking.
 
Wibble said:
The Israeli actions since the attack (and many before) are inexcusable and despicable. However, the Hamas attack was also inexcusable and despicable with murder, kidnap, humiliation and rape used as a weapon of war to elicit the OTT Israeli reaction that Hamas were seeking.
Click to expand...

Yes, Hamas wanted thousands of children to be murdered. They wanted their people to be ethnically cleansed and every facet of their lives to be erased.

Your bothsidesism schtick isn't it, you aren't a CNN or a NYT reporter.
 
Idxomer said:
Yes, Hamas wanted thousands of children to be murdered. They wanted their people to be ethnically cleansed and every facet of their lives to be erased.

Your bothsidesism schtick isn't it, you aren't a CNN or a NYT reporter.
Click to expand...

You are very naive if you think Hamas didn't know and actively seek exactly the Israeli reaction they got. They don't give any more of a feck about the suffering of Palestinian civilians than Israel do. They are just collateral damage to Hamas.
 
MDFC Manager said:
This 'war' was never about rescuing hostages or eliminating hamas. Land grabbing and money stealing is the only motive.
Click to expand...

Idxomer said:
It's not the only motivation but generally, it's the main one. In the current bombardment, ethnic cleansing and deliberate collective punishment of the Gaza population is also a main motivation.
Click to expand...

You are very much mistaken.

While there are some people in Israel - and the government - who want Israelis to live in Gaza, they are a minority. As for stealing money - Come on, the war has caused great damage to Israel's economy.
 
Wibble said:
You are very naive if you think Hamas didn't know and actively seek exactly the Israeli reaction they got. They don't give any more of a feck about the suffering of Palestinian civilians than Israel do. They are just collateral damage to Hamas.
Click to expand...

Moreover, the entire Hamas experience has resulted in non-stop suffering for Gazans for the better part of the past two decades.
 
Last edited:
Idxomer said:
How much does this guy matter?
Click to expand...

He didn't matter when he was foreign minister, as Netanyahu disregards that office and has his own people deal with foreign policies.

Now, Cohen isn't even the foreign minister. He's been replaced at the start of 2024 due to a rotation deal agreed a year ago.
 
rotherham_red said:
What evidence are we talking about here? The NYT article which was quietly retracted? Or this Guardian one which is based on the similar premise of hearsay?

The UN have offered to investigate these claims and were rebuffed because apparently they're antisemitic. Israeli army sources themselves have let it be known have found little to no evidence of it happening, so I'm not sure where this copious amount of evidence is coming from...
Click to expand...

How about the evidence released by Palestinian sources in real time as streaming video.

For instance, the video of the young Israeli woman with her hands bound behind her back and the seat of her pants soaked in blood being marched over and put in the back seat of a car and then young men crowding around the car and peering in.
 
Belisarius said:
How about the evidence released by Palestinian sources in real time as streaming video.

For instance, the video of the young Israeli woman with her hands bound behind her back and the seat of her pants soaked in blood being marched over and put in the back seat of a car and then young men crowding around the car and peering in.
Click to expand...

Heavy period?
 
Belisarius said:
For instance, the video of the young Israeli woman with her hands bound behind her back and the seat of her pants soaked in blood being marched over and put in the back seat of a car and then young men crowding around the car and peering in.
Click to expand...

She had fries with ketchup which spilled all over her.
 
Wibble said:
You are very naive if you think Hamas didn't know and actively seek exactly the Israeli reaction they got. They don't give any more of a feck about the suffering of Palestinian civilians than Israel do.
Click to expand...

No, it's logical. It's nonsensical to believe they wanted all of those people dead and most of Gaza destroyed. You could also apply the same weak logic to the Netanyahu government. Did they ignore all intelligence on the Hamas attack and let the rave happen just to start a war, stay in power, and get rid of the Gazans once and for all?

And again bothsidesism never works on this issue at any time over the decades. Both sides aren't equally culpable no matter how much the mainstream Western media try to pretend otherwise.
 
Idxomer said:
No, it's logical. It's nonsensical to believe they wanted all of those people dead and most of Gaza destroyed. You could also apply the same weak logic to the Netanyahu government. Did they ignore all intelligence on the Hamas attack and let the rave happen just to start a war, stay in power, and get rid of the Gazans once and for all?
Click to expand...

You can't apply the same logic to the Netanyahu government, because you miss the difference between the two: Hamas are actors with unequivocal, unbound free will, whereas Israel / USA simply follow immutable laws, akin to gravity. You wouldn't ask a ball to not accelerate towards the ground if you threw it up in the air.
 
Idxomer said:
No, it's logical. It's nonsensical to believe they wanted all of those people dead and most of Gaza destroyed. You could also apply the same weak logic to the Netanyahu government. Did they ignore all intelligence on the Hamas attack and let the rave happen just to start a war, stay in power, and get rid of the Gazans once and for all?

And again bothsidesism never works on this issue at any time over the decades. Both sides aren't equally culpable no matter how much the mainstream Western media try to pretend otherwise.
Click to expand...

It's rubbish.

Hamas are political and religious fanatics who will let civilians pay any price on their behalf. Always have been and always will be.

And the culpability of each side is a complex and nuanced issue involving historical events. Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
 
MDFC Manager said:
#NotGenocide even though it's textbook genocide.
Click to expand...
"Who are we to judge" or some similar genocide justification.
Wibble said:
It's rubbish.

Hamas are political and religious fanatics who will let civilians pay any price on their behalf. Always have been and always will be.

And the culpability of each side is a complex and nuanced issue involving historical events. Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
Click to expand...

But the problem existed way before Hamas, for over fourty years actually. As a matter of fact, Hamas founding was a direct consequence of Palestinian basic rights not being respected in any way prior to Hamas formation.
 
Amir said:
Did Hamas not know that Israel would retaliate in a way that will harm citizens?
Click to expand...

Did Israel let the attack happen and harm their civilians to retaliate in a way they knew would cause the murder of thousands of children?
 
Bosnian_fan said:
"Who are we to judge" or some similar genocide justification.

But the problem existed way before Hamas, for over fourty years actually. As a matter of fact, Hamas founding was a direct consequence of Palestinian basic rights not being respected in any way prior to Hamas formation.
Click to expand...

Which still makes Hamas murderous political and religious fanatics who the world would would be well rid of.

You can believe that the British government behaved despicably in NI (they did) and in a United Ireland (I do at least in theory) and still think the Provisional IRA were a bunch of murderous twats.
 
Wibble said:
It's rubbish.

Hamas are political and religious fanatics who will let civilians pay any price on their behalf. Always have been and always will be.

And the culpability of each side is a complex and nuanced issue involving historical events. Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. This is the biggest myth about this "conflict", the history is long and has a lot of events but it's not complex at all.

There's one side which is the oppressor and the other group is being oppressed. That's the case in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or anywhere else on that land for that matter.
 
Idxomer said:
No, it's not. This is the biggest myth about this "conflict", the history is long and has a lot of events but it's not complex at all.

There's one side which is the oppressor and the other group is being oppressed. That's the case in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or anywhere else on that land for that matter.
Click to expand...

If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestininans are far from the only players involved.
 
Wibble said:
Simply to support Hamas and blame everything on Israel is ludicrous. You can think Israel's actions since the Hamas attack, or indeed much that happened before then, are unjustified and/or utterly despicable, and also think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fanatical terrorists.
Click to expand...

Is anyone in this thread "simply supporting Hamas"?

I've seen a few comments in the last pages of people casting (unwarranted, IMO) doubt on some of the sexual assault accusations. I wouldn't really call that "simply supporting Hamas."
 
Wibble said:
If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestininans are far from the only players involved.
Click to expand...

The complexity is overstated and I didn't say it was simple. People always do that to defend the indefensible or equate both sides which ironically simplifies the issue for them.

I don't think you realize how tone-deaf your posts are and this discussion is becoming a bit pointless, so I'm gonna leave it here.
 
Wibble said:
If you don't realise that it is complex then you will never understand the conflict meaningfully.

You second paragraph in no way makes the situation simple, and in any case Israel and the Palestininans are far from the only players involved.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but the insistence on the supposed 'complexity' of this conflict is nothing but a crutch to dilute the sheer one-sided oppression of it all.

One side is occupying the territory of the other, one side has refused to declare borders, one side is building illegal settlements with complete immunity and exercising apartheid in the occupied territories. One side has imposed an illegal blockade on a densely populated strip. And that same side is currently being governed by a regime that boasts about destroying the prospect of Palestinian statehood, and uses dehumanising language to downplay the suffering of the other. And these are all factual statements prior to October 7th.

There's nothing remotely complex about it. Those that fail to stomach those facts and crimes will downplay and dismiss them as part of the overarching 'complexity' of it all. The power of balance ultimately resides with Israel, their choices are either give the Palestinians their state in line with the 67 borders as per the UN consensus, or homogenise the territory completely by means of genocide or ethnic cleansing, or they could keep the status quo of opting for further subjugation and oppression. Right now its walking the tight rope between the latter two.
 
Kaos said:
I'm sorry but the insistence on the supposed 'complexity' of this conflict is nothing but a crutch to dilute the sheer one-sided oppression of it all.

One side is occupying the territory of the other, one side has refused to declare borders, one side is building illegal settlements with complete immunity and exercising apartheid in the occupied territories. One side has imposed an illegal blockade on a densely populated strip. And that same side is currently being governed by a regime that boasts about destroying the prospect of Palestinian statehood, and uses dehumanising language to downplay the suffering of the other. And these are all factual statements prior to October 7th.

There's nothing remotely complex about it. Those that fail to stomach those facts and crimes will downplay and dismiss them as part of the overarching 'complexity' of it all. The power of balance ultimately resides with Israel, their choices are either give the Palestinians their state in line with the 67 borders as per the UN consensus, or homogenise the territory completely by means of genocide or ethnic cleansing, or they could keep the status quo of opting for further subjugation and oppression. Right now its walking the tight rope between the latter two.
Click to expand...

Yep, and as the Arab countries gradually stopped their support to Palestinians after 1973, it's hardly even a conflict anymore.
 
Nazi regime and atrocities it has committed could also be tagged as "complicated" and "complex" in the same way really.

It is actually the same excuse I've seen used by fascist and nazi apologetics, and even the ones who supported Srebrenica genocide in my country or at least downplayed it. It is interesting how they all sound the same.

"It was way more complex than that".

By saying something is complex, you are essentially going down the road of giving oppressor the justification for what they are/were doing. Even if you are doing it unconciously, which I absolutely have no doubt most people here who say it are doing. I haven't seen many posters who enjoy evil, if any.

To clarify things further, I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, and will not look for any sort of excuses for them. They are to blame for all those victims they killed and tortured, but not for the Palestinian ones. If Gaza invasion is justified by what Hamas did on October 7th, than it's a mighty justification for all atrocities Hamas committed on that day too, because that day didn't somehow happen in vacuum.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
Nazi regime and atrocities it has committed could also be tagged as "complicated" and "complex" in the same way really.

It is actually the same excuse I've seen used by fascist and nazi apologetics, and even the ones who supported Srebrenica genocide in my country or at least downplayed it. It is interesting how they all sound the same.

"It was way more complex than that".

By saying something is complex, you are essentially going down the road of giving oppressor the justification for what they are/were doing. Even if you are doing it unconciously, which I absolutely have no doubt most people here who say it are doing. I haven't seen many posters who enjoy evil, if any.

To clarify things further, I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, and will not look for any sort of excuses for them. They are to blame for all those victims they killed and tortured, but not for the Palestinian ones. If Gaza invasion is justified by what Hamas did on October 7th, than it's a mighty justification for all atrocities Hamas committed on that day too, because that day didn't somehow happen in vacuum.
Click to expand...

All of the things you mention were the result of very complex situations. Accepting that doesn't justify immoral actions though.

Hamas are a shit stain on the underwear of humanity but that doesn't mean the huge civilian death to from the Israeli military action is justified.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.