Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less



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Also, it's been roughly 24 hrs since they entered the hospital. So far nothing more than a handful of rifles, safe to say if they produce any more evidence it's been manufactured.
High-profile feckup, with ZERO pushback from Genocide Joe or Weepy Kirby. There is no low that they won't be allowed to breach.
 
The optics of the Democratic Party are amazing. Whining for years about the threat of fascism under Trump and the MAGA Republicans, and then Schumer and Pelosi Jeffries show up holding hands with Mike Johnson at the "bomb 'em all" rally. Then the next day having the cops beat up protesters who demand 'ceasefire', a position the overwhelming majority of the party backs.
 
The optics of the Democratic Party are amazing. Whining for years about the threat of fascism under Trump and the MAGA Republicans, and then Schumer and Pelosi show up holding hands with Mike Johnson at the "bomb 'em all" rally. Then the next day having the cops beat up protesters who demand 'ceasefire', a position the overwhelming majority of the party backs.
It’s analogous to what we’re seeing in the UK with Keir and Labour. Maybe not as extreme as the US, but strikingly similar.
 
I don't believe that Biden is speaking to Netanyahu or his current government but more to whomever comes after him once the war is over. And I honestly think that it's as far as Biden can publicly go without committing politic suicide.
Why would it be political suicide? When people say this it almost feels like a trope that Israel has too much influence you know? Not saying you're saying that, but it's like why? We have free speech, we have observable facts, why can't you critique Israel? Why would it be bad for your career etc.
 
Both sides are just as bad. Both are driven by hate, and both couldn't care less about the innocent in this conflict. I think Israel are getting more stick because of the hypocrisy surrounding them, which is mostly coming from their allies and our western organisations.

When you see this for what it is: Two terrorist groups fighting it out, it becomes easier to get past the anger and just feel sadness for the innocent involved on both sides.
Ones a state controlled army - the other has supposedly 10k operatives (no real number has ever been determined with ranges from a couple thousand to 30k cited).

It’s not a war - it’s a one way slaughter at the moment. Israel controls the border - they could have been a lot more surgical if they wished but their own government has been very clear in their own words that they don’t see any such thing as an innocent civilian.

No idea why some on this site seem to still be clinging on the accidental collateral narrative
 
Ones a state controlled army - the other has supposedly 10k operatives (no real number has ever been determined with ranges from a couple thousand to 30k cited).

It’s not a war - it’s a one way slaughter at the moment. Israel controls the border - they could have been a lot more surgical if they wished but their own government has been very clear in their own words that they don’t see any such thing as an innocent civilian.

No idea why some on this site seem to still be clinging on the accidental collateral narrative

I am not clinging accidental collateral narrative, I am saying both sides couldn't care less about civilians. I am under no illusion that the IDF are trying to protect Arab civilians and that their carpet bombings of civilian infrastructure had any precision or any consideration for civilians. But let's be honest, Hamas would have done the same if they had the weapons, both sides are terrorists if you ask me.
 
I am not clinging accidental collateral narrative, I am saying both sides couldn't care less about civilians. I am under no illusion that the IDF are trying to protect Arab civilians and that their carpet bombings of civilian infrastructure had any precision or any consideration for civilians. But let's be honest, Hamas would have done the same if they had the weapons, both sides are terrorists if you ask me.

Oh I meant more than just you when I wrote the clinging bit

I agree with you on what Hamas would have done and that they are terrorists.

I just don’t think the equivocation exists though because Hamas never had the numbers or weapons and never will.

It’s a fringe extremist group that was created because in any situation where an entire populace loses hope, the absolute worst in society get a chance to come to the fore. Ironically Netanyahu benefited a lot from Hamas growing strong and he let them fester because it helped him politically. John Oliver did a great piece on it this past Sunday
 
Also, it's been roughly 24 hrs since they entered the hospital. So far nothing more than a handful of rifles, safe to say if they produce any more evidence it's been manufactured.
High-profile feckup, with ZERO pushback from Genocide Joe or Weepy Kirby. There is no low that they won't be allowed to breach.
10 AKs. Quite a haul to be fair.

Onto to the next hospital!
 
Why would it be political suicide? When people say this it almost feels like a trope that Israel has too much influence you know? Not saying you're saying that, but it's like why? We have free speech, we have observable facts, why can't you critique Israel? Why would it be bad for your career etc.
Free speech and observable facts aren't enough to decide how your foreign policy looks like or should be. There are other calculi and geostrategic considerations that take precedence.

Without even getting into the influence of the pro-Israel lobbies like the AIPAC or the CUFI which can certainly be debated, Israel is an ally and the pillar of the US foreign strategy in the Middle-East. The strategic, economic and religious ties between those two are more than a century old and run deep in the American and Israelian society. There's no way any sane American president or politician running for the presidency would openly criticize them, let alone withdraw any kind of support or put it under conditions, without alienating their most valuable ally in the region and their own population. But you're free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It has been the case since 1948 (date of the declaration of independence of Israel which the US was the first to recognize) and it never changed. The only time we saw the US really jumping in was the Suez Crisis in 1956, in a vastly different context, because of the risk of a conflagration with the Soviet Union and the direct involvement of Britain and France on Israel's side.

Israel has been condemned by the UN in 45 resolutions and violated 28, to this date. It doesn't even declare its official borders. It just doesn't give a flying one about international laws and, in any other case, would've been considered as a rogue state by the current freedom and democracy merchants. Despite this, I've yet to see any instance where the US took a firm stance against Israel's frankly criminal policies in the occupied West Bank and the blockaded Gaza Strip. Every resolution condemning Israel has been systematically vetoed by the US which also provides a yearly $4 billion financial aid. The best you can get from the US is an abstention. It can't be a coincidence and that's something every official in the American state apparatus or potential presidential candidate is accutely aware of.

To my eyes, the US is currently the biggest obstacle to a durable peace and a two-state solution. Israel has no reason to stop its settlement policy and continue to geographically atomize any hope of a Palestinian State, because it holds all the cards and there's no one able or willing to oppose them. They do it because they can. The Arab countries are weak and their governments corrupt. Europe is guilt ridden, divided more than ever and militarily a nothingburger. Russia has other problems and certainly doesn't have the pull it had 40 years ago. China doesn't want any of it at the moment. The sole and only country capable of reigning Israel in and force them to engage in a two-state process, is and always was the US, but they just won't do it for the reasons I've mentioned above. Unless Israel truly goes off the deep end but we're (still) far, far away from that.

+11,000 dead Palestinians within a month. Among them 4,500 children, more than all conflicts in every region of the world in the last three years combined. A collectively punished and starved Gaza turning into a flattened garbage dump, and pogroms in the West Bank. Yet all of this is still far from enough for the official US and west-european moral compass to really turn red. Although and to be fair, it seems to have begun because of the real risk of a regional conflagration and the future consequences in the region and the world resulting from this unhinged military campaign.
 
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Free speech and observable facts aren't enough to decide how your foreign policy looks like or should be. There are other calculi and geostrategical considerations that take precedence.

Without even getting to the influence of the pro-Israel lobbies like the AIPAC or the CUFI which can certainly be debated, Israel is an ally and the pillar of the US foreign strategy in the Middle-East. The strategic, econonomic and religious ties between those two are more than a century old and run deep in the American and Israelian society. There's no way any sane American president or politician running for the presidency would openly criticize them, let alone withdraw any kind of support or put it under conditions without alienating their most valuable ally in the region and their own population. But you're free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It has been the case since 1948 (date of the declaration of independence of Israel which the US was the first to recognize) and it never changed. The only time we saw the US really jumping in was the Suez Crisis in 1956, in a vastly different context, because of the risk of a conflagration with the Soviet Union and the direct involvement of Britain and France on Israel's side.

Israel has been condemned by the UN to this date in 45 resolutions and violated 28. It's a state that doesn't even officially declare its borders. It just doesn't give a flying one about international laws and, in any other case, would've been considered as a rogue state by the current merchants of freedom and democracy. Despite that, I've yet to see any instance where the US took a firm stance against Israel's frankly criminal policies in the occupied West Bank and the blockaded Gaza Strip. Every resolution condemning Israel has been systematically vetoed by the US which also provides a yearly $4 billion financial aid. The best you can get from the US is an abstention. It can't be a coincidence and that's something every official in the American state apparatus or potential presidential candidate is accutely conscious of.

To my eyes, the US is currently biggest obstacle to a durable peace and a two-state solution. Israel has no reason to stop its settlement policy and continue to geographically atomize any hope of a Palestinian State because it holds all the cards and there's no one able or willing to oppose them. They do it because they can. The Arab countries are weak and their governments corrupt. Europe is guilt ridden, divided more than ever and militarily a nothingburger. Russia has other problems and certainly doesn't have the pull it had 40 years ago. China wants no part in it at the moment.The sole and only country capable of reigning Israel in and force them to engage in a two-state process is and always was the US, but they just won't do it for the reasons I've mentioned above. Unless Israel truly goes off the deep end but we're (still) far, far away from that.

+11,000 dead Palestinians within a month. Among them 4,500 children, more than all conflicts in every region of the world in the last three years combined. A collectively punished and starved Gaza turning into a flattened garbage dump and pogroms in the West Bank. All of this is still far from enough for the official US and west-european moral compass to really turn red. Although and to be fair, it seems to have begun because of the real risk of a regional conflagration and the future consequences in the region and the world of this unhinged military campaign.
Good post
 
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Free speech and observable facts aren't enough to decide how your foreign policy looks like or should be. There are other calculi and geostrategical considerations that take precedence.

Without even getting into the influence of the pro-Israel lobbies like the AIPAC or the CUFI which can certainly be debated, Israel is an ally and the pillar of the US foreign strategy in the Middle-East. The strategic, economic and religious ties between those two are more than a century old and run deep in the American and Israelian society. There's no way any sane American president or politician running for the presidency would openly criticize them, let alone withdraw any kind of support or put it under conditions, without alienating their most valuable ally in the region and their own population. But you're free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It has been the case since 1948 (date of the declaration of independence of Israel which the US was the first to recognize) and it never changed. The only time we saw the US really jumping in was the Suez Crisis in 1956, in a vastly different context, because of the risk of a conflagration with the Soviet Union and the direct involvement of Britain and France on Israel's side.

Israel has been condemned by the UN to this date in 45 resolutions and violated 28. It doesn't even declare its official borders. It just doesn't give a flying one about international laws and, in any other case, would've been considered as a rogue state by the current freedom and democracy merchants. Despite this, I've yet to see any instance where the US took a firm stance against Israel's frankly criminal policies in the occupied West Bank and the blockaded Gaza Strip. Every resolution condemning Israel has been systematically vetoed by the US which also provides a yearly $4 billion financial aid. The best you can get from the US is an abstention. It can't be a coincidence and that's something every official in the American state apparatus or potential presidential candidate is accutely aware of.

To my eyes, the US is currently the biggest obstacle to a durable peace and a two-state solution. Israel has no reason to stop its settlement policy and continue to geographically atomize any hope of a Palestinian State because it holds all the cards and there's no one able or willing to oppose them. They do it because they can. The Arab countries are weak and their governments corrupt. Europe is guilt ridden, divided more than ever and militarily a nothingburger. Russia has other problems and certainly doesn't have the pull it had 40 years ago. China wants no part in it at the moment.The sole and only country capable of reigning Israel in and force them to engage in a two-state process is and always was the US, but they just won't do it for the reasons I've mentioned above. Unless Israel truly goes off the deep end but we're (still) far, far away from that.

+11,000 dead Palestinians within a month. Among them 4,500 children, more than all conflicts in every region of the world in the last three years combined. A collectively punished and starved Gaza turning into a flattened garbage dump and pogroms in the West Bank. Yet all of this is still far from enough for the official US and west-european moral compass to really turn red. Although and to be fair, it seems to have begun because of the real risk of a regional conflagration and the future consequences in the region and the world of this unhinged military campaign.
Accurate analysis.Unfortunately.
 
A Muslim ZAKA volunteer about the Hamas massacre atrocities
 
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What purpose then?



Its an embed program, so obviously journos have to agree to opsec restrictions before they go in. They get a free ride and the security of being able to film in an active war zone, as long as they don't give away any operational information in the process.
 
Its an embed program, so obviously journos have to agree to opsec restrictions before they go in. They get a free ride and the security of being able to film in an active war zone, as long as they don't give away any operational information in the process.
I think the word you're searching for is filtering.

There's no way any army in the world would agree to journos independently reporting about what's going on a battlefield, for very, very understandable reasons. There's a feckton of things that can go wrong in a war. Always did, always do and alway will. Nobody wants it to come out and look like the bad guy. Vietnam and Desert Storm are two examples that taught us that much in modern warfare, and they're a few among many. Embedded journalists are basically people who renounced any kind of objective and neutral reporting in exchange of exclusivity, and they will inevitabily abide to an already predetermined narrative written by the army they chose to closely follow.

There are glimpses of truth but never the whole truth itself.

From my own perspective, you're a smart and very well educated person, I always read your posts because I know I'm about to learn something. However I'm quite astonished when it comes to your relentnessness in trying to downplay and justify anything that's been undertaken under the Israeli flag. I don't know if it's an attempt to bring balance in a discussion that has, let's be honest, been overtaken by a sometimes unabashed pro-palestinian side, or a genuine belief that the IDF is abiding by the rules and can do no wrong.

I might well be miles off the mark but that's my impression.
 
I think the word you're searching for is filtering.

There's no way any army in the world would agree to journos independently reporting about what's going on a battlefield, for very, very understandable reasons. There's a feckton of things that can go wrong in a war. Always did, always do and alway will. Nobody wants it to come out and look like the bad guy. Vietnam and Desert Storm are two examples that taught us that much in modern warfare, and they're a few among many. Embedded journalists are basically people who renounced any kind of objective and neutral reporting in exchange of exclusivity, and they will inevitabily abide to an already predetermined narrative written by the army they chose to closely follow.

There are glimpses of truth but never the whole truth itself.

From my own perspective, you're a smart and very well educated person, I always read your posts because I know I'm about to learn something. However I'm quite astonished when it comes to your relentnessness in trying to downplay and justify anything that's been undertaken under the Israeli flag. I don't know if it's an attempt to bring balance in a discussion that has, let's be honest, been overtaken by a sometimes unabashed pro-palestinian side, or a genuine belief that the IDF is abiding by the rules and can do no wrong.

I might well be miles off the mark but that's my impression.

There are restrictions when operating in war zones so obviously journos have to abide by rules when participating since the military aren’t going to allow random journalists to give away their locations, hardware, or soldiers faces in their reporting. I’ve seen these programs in action throughout seven years in two war zones, and there is an extensive credentialing process that is undertaken to make sure the reporting doesn’t compromise operations. If journos don’t want to participate then that’s their choice, but most do because they know if they don’t, journos from other outlets will beat them to the story.
 
Well, their propaganda minister is absolutely certain it's a Hamas HQ and we know that he never lies.


He’s such an irresponsible impotent moron. I don’t know if he’s genuinely stupid or just senile. The US are looking worse and worse day by day in this conflict, and it’s pretty much down to weak leadership embodied by this prat.
 
Both sides are just as bad. Both are driven by hate, and both couldn't care less about the innocent in this conflict. I think Israel are getting more stick because of the hypocrisy surrounding them, which is mostly coming from their allies and our western organisations.

When you see this for what it is: Two terrorist groups fighting it out, it becomes easier to get past the anger and just feel sadness for the innocent involved on both sides.

One is driven by living under an apartheid regime, the other is driven by hate (well, it's more like some psychotic, divorced from reality existential fear). Israel is getting more stick because it's a nuclear superpower attempting to ethnically cleanse an indigenous population.
 
There are restrictions when operating in war zones so obviously journos have to abide by rules when participating since the military aren’t going to allow random journalists to give away their locations, hardware, or soldiers faces in their reporting. I’ve seen these programs in action throughout seven years in two war zones, and there is an extensive credentialing process that is undertaken to make sure the reporting doesn’t compromise operations. If journos don’t want to participate then that’s their choice, but most do because they know if they don’t, journos from other outlets will beat them to the story.
You mean controlling the narrative? This was first introduced in Iraq. The unethical nature of it is the reason media houses now have to mention it.
That Iraq war exposed a lot of ugly practices by govts.