Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

That_Bloke said:
What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
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Because the Bible doesn't refer to a lot of day-to-day stuff, there was a need to expand on it. Thus came about some books, and the most important of them to the actual ruling is the Halakha. it was written hundreds of years ago and current rabbis keep expanding on it but based on it, if that makes sense.
I'd think that Immams in mosques do the same.

Anyway,
According to the Halakha, you don't bury a non-Jew next to Jews. can't remember why exactly.
now, this woman was on her way to becoming Jewish by conversion which is specific for soldiers of the IDF (it's faster and disliked by orthodox Jews, but they have no choice but to accept it and the converted people as Jews).

Seeing as she didn't complete the process, she is considered a non-Jew.
Her body must have been sent, after identification, to Khevra Kadisha, which is the organization that is in charge of burials in Israel.
They go by the Halakha. There are indeed several "civil (secular) cemeteries" in Israel and you can ask to be buried there,
but most people don't do that- whether by lack of thought, knowledge, money (I assume it's more expensive), or other reasons.

so the Khevra Ksddisha buried the murdered young lady in a different part of the cemetery dedicated to non-Jews,
because for them that's the way to go, no exceptions seeing as this is god's will.

After a huge public outcry, I saw an article where some Rabbis who are responsible for this or that on a national level,
saying that there should have been at least a consideration to make an exception, because the Halakha has solutions to everything, essentially.
Some of them said she should have been buried regularly because she was murdered as a Jew.

I wonder how it will be resolved.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Because the Bible doesn't refer to a lot of day-to-day stuff, there was a need to expand on it. Thus came about some books, and the most important of them to the actual ruling is the Halakha. it was written hundreds of years ago and current rabbis keep expanding on it but based on it, if that makes sense.
I'd think that Immams in mosques do the same.

Anyway,
According to the Halakha, you don't bury a non-Jew next to Jews. can't remember why exactly.
now, this woman was on her way to becoming Jewish by conversion which is specific for soldiers of the IDF (it's faster and disliked by orthodox Jews, but they have no choice but to accept it and the converted people as Jews).

Seeing as she didn't complete the process, she is considered a non-Jew.
Her body must have been sent, after identification, to Khevra Kadisha, which is the organization that is in charge of burials in Israel.
They go by the Halakha. There are indeed several "civil (secular) cemeteries" in Israel and you can ask to be buried there,
but most people don't do that- whether by lack of thought, knowledge, money (I assume it's more expensive), or other reasons.

so the Khevra Ksddisha buried the murdered young lady in a different part of the cemetery dedicated to non-Jews,
because for them that's the way to go, no exceptions seeing as this is god's will.

After a huge public outcry, I saw an article where some Rabbis who are responsible for this or that on a national level,
saying that there should have been at least a consideration to make an exception, because the Halakha has solutions to everything, essentially.
Some of them said she should have been buried regularly because she was murdered as a Jew.

I wonder how it will be resolved.
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Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I'm better informed about Islam without being part of it, but as far as I know, you're correct in your assessment. Non-Muslims can't be buried next to Muslims, unless there's no other way. The definition of the jewish word "Halakha" is also very similar to the arabic "Akhlaq" which also defines "a code of conduct and good manners under the precepts of Islam". A walk of life. Or am I wrong in my comparison?

She didn't complete the process because she was murdered, it's not like she jumped out. I know that becoming a Jew is quite an arduous and lengthy process but the intent was already there, and the conversion was underway. Unless you go by a very literal interpretation of the Halakha. A way of thinking that I always found to be dangerous and impratical, no matter which religion it refers to.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any objection to her burial inside a jewish cemetery.
 
That_Bloke said:
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I'm better informed about Islam without being part of it, but as far as I know, you're correct in your assessment. Non-Muslims can't be buried next to Muslims, unless there's no other way. The definition of the jewish word "Halakha" is also very similar to the arabic "Akhlaq" which also defines "a code of conduct and good manners under the precepts of Islam". A walk of life. Or am I wrong in my comparison?

She didn't complete the process because she was murdered, it's not like she jumped out. I know that becoming a Jew is quite an arduous and lengthy process but the intent was already there, and the conversion was underway. Unless you go by a very literal interpretation of the Halakha. A way of thinking that I always found to be dangerous and impratical, no matter which religion it refers to.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any objection to her burial inside a jewish cemetery.
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Could also be linked to the Arabic word halaqa as well (the literal meaning is circle but wider connotation is religious gathering). Halakha has similar intimations (literally means 'the way' with a wider intimation of talmudic teachings).
 
RedTiger said:
Have the IDF found and destroyed the tunnels under Shifa yet?
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They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
 
the_cliff said:
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
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They've arrested all journalists in the area so it's much easier to spread their lies without anyone challenging them.
 
the_cliff said:
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
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They need to consult with the guys who staged the moon landings
 
That there are tunnels in that particular hospital doesn't seem to be any kind of mystery. "We all know there are bunkers and tunnels because the Israelis built some of them when they were in control of the al Shifa hospital before 2005," is a quote from a Sky News military analyst.
 
berbatrick said:
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Media coverage in US is turning against Israel in US now. Even NYT comment section, which is good indicator of liberal Hillary/Biden supporting Democrats, is turning against Israel after initially they were all for Israel eradicating Hamas for Oct 7 attack. The generational divide within Democrats over Israel-Palestine issue can cost Biden the election. And ultimately that might be the issue that forces him to reign in Israel in some manner here.
 
crappycraperson said:
Media coverage in US is turning against Israel in US now. Even NYT comment section, which is good indicator of liberal Hillary/Biden supporting Democrats, is turning against Israel after initially they were all for Israel eradicating Hamas for Oct 7 attack. The generational divide within Democrats over Israel-Palestine issue can cost Biden the election. And ultimately that might be the issue that forces him to reign in Israel in some manner here.
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I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
 
Ian Bremmer in an interview date from 11/9 on Palestine and Israel's domestic situation before 10/7, its relationship with the Arab Gulf States, the Israeli response to the massacre, Hamas' strategy, the US support, prospects of peace and the two-state solution.

 
The Indonesian President is calling for a ceasefire because he's afraid if things keep going the IDF will find the top secret documents that show the Indonesian Hospital in Gaza was built by Hamas.
 
Raoul said:
I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
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I honestly don't think that it's the case.

The current Israeli military campaign is predictably turning into a PR disaster for the Israeli government, and no matter how little it means on the current operations, the international opinion has well and truly turned. And I don't believe that the US government is blind to it.

You just can't get away with +11,000 dead with about half of them being children, every meaningful infrastructure and 43% of the residences in Gaza being either damaged and destroyed, no food, no water, no power, no medical aid allowed for the civilian population, all of it within a month. A child is dying every ten minutes in Gaza right now. And the IDF hasn't even begun to make a real dent to the Hamas structures for which weeks, if not months more, will be needed. The little IDF show of soldiers bringing baby food and medical supplies to the Al Shifa hospital won't change anything. This is well above anything the West would've tolerated from any ally if it weren't for Israel, and even then, too much is just too much at some point.

The humanitarian crisis is real, there's no visible end game and the post-war consequences are potentially catastrophic in the short as well as in the long-term. Something needs to change and fast.
 
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Raoul said:
I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
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I will be honest, I was pretty much going by NYT/WaPo coverage of the war for my take, so I will take your word on media coverage. Overall I still feel if this issue dampens some enthusiasm amongst young Democrat voters it can cost Biden the election. I also don't believe US will allow Israel to go even more belligerent given the international pressure from other allies in the region. That's recipe for disaster for sure.
 
Ireland voting tonight on a bill which may possibly see us expel the Israeli ambassador and report Israel to the ICC for the constant violation of international law. I really don’t see it happening, our mainstream politicians will vote against as they’ve been very slow to condemn Israel in any way that may upset the business status quo. From what I gather Sinn Fein, Social Democrats and people before profit are the parties behind the bill. I hope we can lay down a marker and then other countries follow suit. I want us to be on the right side of history and that this can be the start of something resembling lasting peace and justice for Palestinians. Hopefully something lasting and positive can eventually come out of this horror for ordinary peaceful people in the region.
 
ExoduS said:
I really need to get educated more about Northern Ireland conflict, The Troubles. Closest I got was in Gladwell's book David and Goliath where he argued British attempt to enforce authority backfired. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that it appears IRA took an "L" in "The Troubles" conflict and in return they got few concessions from the British. The same will have to happen in this conflict - Palestinians will have to take an "L" along with whatever favorable agreements they can get from Israelis. Appears that Palestinians do not want to take an "L" and their strategy is to continue to inflict damage to Israeli civilians to which Israelis respond unevenly. Doesn't bring me any pleasure in saying this - but the side getting overwhelmed should work toward peace and ensure there are no organizations within it jeopardizing the path toward peace. If Palestinian strategy is to protect Hamas so they can murder Israeli civilians, so Israelis just pack up and leave then they will have to live with harsh responses like this.
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John Oliver's recent episode on this should be illuminating to you on how Palestinians view Hamas and their desire for peace.
 
Wibble said:
Evidence would suggest that you are being very optimistic. I'm well over 3 decades past expecting Israel to act like the adult in the room after having lived there for 6 months in the late 80's. I've lived in Egypt and UAE as well so I have a similarly dim view from that perspective as well. Much to admire but a great deal not to admire.

When a democratic state gets into the situation (however that occurs) where they are occupying a bit of land where the local population is other, wants them gone and a terrorist organisation arises, then that democracy will pander to the majority of the electorate when a terrorist attack occurs not matter the history, and that will rarely be a path of restraint. Anything less is usually seen as rewarding terrorists. It happened in the UK with Northern Ireland and it is happening/has happened here. The big difference is that few or none of the players in this conflict want a workable solution. The West Bank is now such a mass of settlements that I can't see how that can be made to work under a 2 state solution (exactly the point of Israeli settlement). Hamas are happier trying to wipe out Jews and Israel and any version of a 2 state solution they would be part of won't fly for anyone else (as it will be delusional in nature and scope). Including land outside Gaza and The West Bank is a no go for the neighbouring countries. Governments talking to terrorists, with both wanting a peaceful solution is required to get a solution and we are nowhere near that here. In fact we are further away than ever.

I'm not against calling out bad behaviour by everyone, rather the opposite, but the current bias to Hamas e.g. they say they don't have military operations in hospitals and people believe that, yet blindly assuming Israel are lying about everything, even things as obvious as Hamas using hospitals and the like as cover, does nothing to further anything. You can accept that both sides are engaging in misinformation and propaganda while at the same time thinking Israel shouldn't attack hospitals no matter what (or that they should do so with more care or whatever) and most of all you can think badly of just about all players in this. I do. But the ludicrous levels of confirmational bias displayed in this thread (mainly pro-Palestinian, but also pro-Israeli by some posters) simply demonstrates how divided and intractable the situation is.
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I think that we mainly agree on everything. Hamas included. If i am part of the Hamas optics that you mention, i believe and i can only talk for me but i think i can extrapolate that evrybody believe that Hamas has tunnels and i believe a majorty accepts or can accept that they have them under key infrastructures using them as human shields, because it makes sense in a terrorist strategy POV, but in my opinion i dont see how bombing the hospital would affect this tunnels as the only way would be wipe out the hospital with a big crater. Bombing here and there it seems that they are more interested on destroying the infrastructure to make living in gaza untenable for civilians the same for other infrastructures. It would make more sense, if they would have a minimum respect for the civilians to bomb the surroudings and then raid the hospital and the posible tunnels. Or not having any regards and obliterate the hospital in hopes of destroying the tunnels. But it seems that the primary objective is to make civilians lives miserable more than go after hamas. The fake staged videos dont help either. And bombing fishing boats (no tunnels under boats, just clarifying) helps that view of going after the civilian population more than the hamas tunnels that are used as an excuse.

Summarizing, i dont think that anyone denies the tunnels, and anyone or mostly anyone dennies the plausibility of these tunnels to run below these infrastructures, but it seema at least to me that is a secondary point and is just un excuse for what israel is doing to the palestinian population
 
Ali Dia said:
Ireland voting tonight on a bill which may possibly see us expel the Israeli ambassador and report Israel to the ICC for the constant violation of international law. I really don’t see it happening, our mainstream politicians will vote against as they’ve been very slow to condemn Israel in any way that may upset the business status quo. From what I gather Sinn Fein, Social Democrats and people before profit are the parties behind the bill. I hope we can lay down a marker and then other countries follow suit. I want us to be on the right side of history and that this can be the start of something resembling lasting peace and justice for Palestinians. Hopefully something lasting and positive can eventually come out of this horror for ordinary peaceful people in the region.
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Both motions defeated -TDs reject motion to expel Israeli ambassador
 
VorZakone said:
Tried a Google translate on Channel 13 website. So far I see nothing on this?
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Yes, you are right. there's nothing on the N13 website at the moment.
it might have been said on the 13 TV channel and not yet posted to the website- I don't know.

Anyhow, the evidence coming so far from Shifa is meek, even for those who believe that the IDF doesn't fake everything.

Edit: the main news article on the N13 website claims that 2,000 Hamas men were hiding in Shifa at a certain point.
could have said 20 or 20 thousand. no explanation as to how the number was calculated.

maybe there are calendars there with 2k days of the week...
 
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VorZakone said:
Tried a Google translate on Channel 13 website. So far I see nothing on this?
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ScholesyTheWise said:
Yes, you are right. there's nothing on the N13 website at the moment.
it might have been said on the 13 TV channel and not yet posted to the website- I don't know.

Anyhow, the evidence coming so far from Shifa is meek, even for those who believe that the IDF doesn't fake everything.
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I’m trying to find the same - but give it time. This has been shown though:

 
Oh well maybe it was another hospital. On to the next one, no one can stop it anyway, not Biden, not Sunak.
 
VorZakone said:
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The quoted twitter page does not look very reliable - their first headline is about Iran getting close to a nuke, and a little below they are reporting a random Republican senator saying Biden is soft on Iran. After googling, only the times of israel is carrying the same story. Reuters has a more basic report which only says this, not that last line in that quoted tweet:
The Islamic Republic says it supports Hamas but did not play any role in the militants' surprise attack on Israel last month.

"Ayatollah Khamenei praised the steadfastness and resilience of the people of Gaza and expressed strong regret over the crimes of the Zionist regime, supported directly by Washington and some Western countries," Iran's state TV said.

Without elaborating when the meeting took place, Iran's Tasnim news agency said the country's top authority Khamenei "emphasized Tehran's consistent policy of supporting the Palestinian resistance forces against the Zionist occupiers".


Iran's clerical establishment has warned Israel, which it refuses to recognise, of "harsh consequences" if attacks continue on the Gaza Strip.
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I would be absolutely unsurprised if Iran indeed does not want to get involved, but, the source just doesn't look right.
 
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