Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

I'm going to start documenting the absolutely mentally insane shit pro-Israel people say online:

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Loved the point especially about how Houthi's, without any actual functional naval vessels, will blockade the coast of Israel which is entirely on the Mediterranean sea.
 


This is so fecking bizarre to me, celebrating a foreign power bombing your capital city, killing hundreds just because someone else you also hate potentially died in the process?

Such a weird mentality.
 


This is so fecking bizarre to me, celebrating a foreign power bombing your capital city, killing hundreds just because someone else you also hate potentially died in the process?

Such a weird mentality.

Is that video even verified? Looks like the source is an insane conservative lunatic.
 
But in the course of the last year Netanyahu has made a habit of defying President Joe Biden’s wishes about the way Israel is fighting. Despite providing Israel with the aircraft and bombs used in the raid on Beirut, President Biden and team were spectators.

:lol:

I wonder what's going to happen to those weapons deliveries and American security umbrella? Even though they've defied Biden.

But there's nothing the USA could do. Honest.
 
Is that video even verified? Looks like the source is an insane conservative lunatic.

I honestly can't tell what's bullshit on twitter anymore.

Nasrullah is trending on Twitter and when I click it its just videos of people celebrating. Twitter algorithm is pretty fecked, I just want to see what is the latest update.
 
According to The Atlantic, Blinken enquired whether the Saudis could tolerate Israel periodically re-entering the territory to strike the besieged Gaza Strip.

“They can come back in six months, a year, but not on the back end of my signing something like this,” Mohammed bin Salman responded.

“Seventy percent of my population is younger than me,” the crown prince explained to Blinken.

“For most of them, they never really knew much about the Palestinian issue. And so they’re being introduced to it for the first time through this conflict. It’s a huge problem. Do I care personally about the Palestinian issue? I don’t, but my people do, so I need to make sure this is meaningful.”

MBS is such a fecking wankstain on society. How fecking callous could one possibly be?

"Yeah, I don't give a shit about these people being massacred, but look, I lose power if I don't pretend otherwise, I hope you understand dude, no hard feelings okay?"

feck you MBS.
 
MBS is such a fecking wankstain on society. How fecking callous could one possibly be?

"Yeah, I don't give a shit about these people being massacred, but look, I lose power if I don't pretend otherwise, I hope you understand dude, no hard feelings okay?"

feck you MBS.

Out of interest what's the context of this article? Israel re entering periodically in the context of a ceasefire or in the context of a Palestinian 'state'?
 
I honestly can't tell what's bullshit on twitter anymore.

Nasrullah is trending on Twitter and when I click it its just videos of people celebrating. Twitter algorithm is pretty fecked, I just want to see what is the latest update.

Its an old video apparently.
 
Out of interest what's the context of this article? Israel re entering periodically in the context of a ceasefire or in the context of a Palestinian 'state'?


MBS told Blinken that the Biden administration represented his best chance for realizing his plans: Two-thirds of the Senate needed to ratify any Saudi-U.S. defense pact, and he believed that could happen only in a Democratic administration, which could help deliver progressives’ votes by building a Palestinian state into the deal. He had to move quickly, before the November election risked returning Trump to power.

“What do you need from Israel?” Blinken wanted to know.

Above all, MBS said, he needed calm in Gaza. Blinken asked if the Saudis could tolerate Israel periodically reentering the territory to conduct counterterrorism raids. “They can come back in six months, a year, but not on the back end of my signing something like this,” MBS replied.

He began to talk about the imperative of an Israeli commitment to Palestinian statehood.

“Seventy percent of my population is younger than me,” the 38-year-old ruler explained. “For most of them, they never really knew much about the Palestinian issue. And so they’re being introduced to it for the first time through this conflict. It’s a huge problem. Do I care personally about the Palestinian issue? I don’t, but my people do, so I need to make sure this is meaningful.” (A Saudi official described this account of the conversation as “incorrect.”)

He wanted Blinken to know that he was pursuing this deal at the greatest personal risk. The example of the assassinated former Egyptian President Anwar Sadat weighed on him, an unshakable demonstration that the Muslim Brotherhood would wait patiently to exact murderous revenge on an Arab leader willing to make peace with Israel.

“Half my advisers say that the deal is not worth the risk,” he said. “I could end up getting killed because of this deal.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...ar-biden-netanyahu-peace-negotiations/679581/

Saudi's deny he said that of course, but then again they have to deny it or that would not go down well with the Saudi people.
 
They were always thinking it.

Oh not at all. Before being exposed to the likes of Fearless and HR and you and polls of Israeli public opinion, and the writings of Zionist thinkers, I used to think the two state solution was a good thing, a middle ground must be found, religion is the problem, etc.


I now understand Israel as a ethno-supremacist state doing a genocide in open sight and with the backing of the world, which exists because of Britain's colonialism and Germany's genocide, and which has been waging an elimination war on the native population since its existence.
 
Same was thinking Nasrallah after October 7th about Hamas when he decided not to get involved. They are living their particular " first they come for....and said nothing"
Another perspective: an Iran that calculates that its proxies are not good enough as a deterrent might genuinely consider to go nuclear.

 
Oh not at all. Before being exposed to the likes of Fearless and HR and you and polls of Israeli public opinion, and the writings of Zionist thinkers, I used to think the two state solution was a good thing, a middle ground must be found, religion is the problem, etc.


I now understand Israel as a ethno-supremacist state doing a genocide in open sight and with the backing of the world, which exists because of Britain's colonialism and Germany's genocide, and which has been waging an elimination war on the native population since its existence.

You got radicalised, yes I see that. Echo chambers do that. If you'd expressed the same views from a pro Israel perspective would you still be allowed to post here?
 
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He was for a two state solution before. One would wonder what is he for now.
Something beginning with G?

To be fair there is no chance of a two state solution in the foreseeable future. All sides need to choose leaders who are not so extreme and that's not on the cards.
 
You got radicalised, yes I see that. Echo chambers do that. If you'd expressed the same views from a pro Israel perspective would you still be allowed to post here?
The echo chamber known as "correct usage of your eyes, ears, and brain."
 
Something beginning with G?
no it can’t be that, that can only be reserved for a certain group of people who were in a very specific area for a short period of time for a specific time period. People who were there before, after and during the same specific period are ethnic cleansing genocidal western colonisers who must go back to where they came from*

*where they came from to be determined at a later date
 
The echo chamber known as "correct usage of your eyes, ears, and brain."

It seems there are many people who disagree. Perhaps they are all blind, deaf and stupid. Or perhaps it is you that has been radicalised to the point where there is only one truth? That's generally a bad sign.
 
Something beginning with G?

To be fair there is no chance of a two state solution in the foreseeable future. All sides need to choose leaders who are not so extreme and that's not on the cards.

Presumably you must also consider the current PM of Israel to be in favour of something beginning with G, seeing as he has never been in favour of a 2 state solution.

Right?

Right?
 
no it can’t be that, that can only be reserved for a certain group of people who were in a very specific area for a short period of time for a specific time period. People who were there before, after and during the same specific period are ethnic cleansing genocidal western colonisers who must go back to where they came from*

*where they came from to be determined at a later date

Just say there's no such thing as a Palestinian people. Message would be a lot shorter.
 
It seems there are many people who disagree. Perhaps they are all blind, deaf and stupid. Or perhaps it is you that has been radicalised to the point where there is only one truth? That's generally a bad sign.
I would honestly love to know what is going through your brain. Israel has the institutional and financial support of the world's largest superpower and here you are repeatedly complaining about its mistreatment on a football forum.
 
Presumably you must also consider the current PM of Israel to be in favour of something beginning with G, seeing as he has never been in favour of a 2 state solution.

Don't think he's advocated killing, enslaving or driving out every Palestinian between the river and the sea in the way Hamas openly do. But also yes, he's not somebody I want in charge of Israel either. Likud's West Bank expansion cannot be condoned.

But I do not see myself any genocide in Gaza. Just a calous disregard for the lives of Hamas human shields. Its legitimate to criticise that.
 
I would honestly love to know what is going through your brain. Israel has the institutional and financial support of the world's largest superpower and here you are repeatedly complaining about its mistreatment on a football forum.

And here you are repeatedly attacking it on a football forum. Go figure. At least it's my own team's football forum.
 
So is this the scenario where Hezbollah unleashes its rocket arsenal? Feels like a "use them or lose them" dilemma.
 
And here you are repeatedly attacking it on a football forum. Go figure.
I am. According to my calculations, with 10-12 more negative posts about Israel, I'll change U.S. foreign policy.

At least it's my own team's football forum.

You are right, I support Real Madrid, you support Manchester United. Both enormously wealthy clubs with vast resources and a massive fanbase.

Do you know how unbecoming it comes across when supporters of Real Madrid or Manchester United complain endlessly about how the media ecosystem and the referees are conspiring against them? Whenever I hear these people, I can only think to myself "you are on top of the world. The least you can do is behave with some dignity."
 
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Don't think he's advocated killing, enslaving or driving out every Palestinian between the river and the sea in the way Hamas openly do. .

He stood at the UN yesterday with a map of israel that deleted gaza the west bank and the golan heights.

So yes, yes he does.
 
Don't think he's advocated killing, enslaving or driving out every Palestinian between the river and the sea in the way Hamas openly do. But also yes, he's not somebody I want in charge of Israel either. Likud's West Bank expansion cannot be condoned.

But I do not see myself any genocide in Gaza. Just a calous disregard for the lives of Hamas human shields. Its legitimate to criticise that.

That's not my question. Ignore Gaza for a second. Gaza doesn't exist. Ignore Hamas. Nobody brought up Hamas.

You said that Berbatrick was for something beginning with G, seeing as he is not in favour of a two state solution.

Netanyahu is not in favour of a 2 state solution. He never has been. He is not in favour of it now.

So berbatrick is for G. Is Netanyahu for G?
 
The pager/walkie-talkie explosions are not only an escalation, they're a humiliation - I suppose they are intended to be provocative, and that can only be because Israel believes that they can prevail in any sort of conflict if Hezobollah/Iran retaliate. I suppose that makes sense given they have blanket diplomatic immunity and full military support from the US where the worst consequence is a strongly worded tweet to accompany their next shipment of arms, ammo, and other war machines.

But that begs the question - does Hezbollah have the ability to truly retaliate? What would be a good resource to understand their idelogical beliefs and their organizational, military, and geopolitical capabilities? Is Israeli confidence founded in their actual ability (can they persist with 3 active conflicts with Gaza, West Bank, Hezbollah at once) or is it erroneously motivated only by Netanyahu's selfish goals? Assuming that (1) Israel continues to escalate the conflict, (2) Hezbollah/Iran eventually are forced to rise to the bait of declaring 'open war' or the equivalent, (3) the US continues to be only passively involved, and (4) the other Middle Eastern states continue to be inert in this conflict - how does this pan out next?

I had briefly emerged from my passive but attentive following of this 'conflict' to ask what could happen next just after the pager explosions (thanks @Raoul and @nickm for your replies) - seems the answer is here. Perhaps a lot of the statements I am about to make are not grounded in fact or the whole context - I would welcome corrections.

If the death of Nasrallah is indeed true, then Netanyahu and co. were right (so far) in believing that they could prevail in the immediate conflict with Hezbollah. They were seemingly right in believing that Western World (mainly US), despite any pretense at de-escalating rhetoric, would continue to support them - through massive funding, weapons/ammo supplies, and lack of diplomatic action. And this because the leaders of the Western World effectively have the same views as Netanyahu and co - that the devastating human loss of innocent life, livelihoods, families, history, culture, societies, and the ensuing generational trauma is all fair game if it came with debilitating damage to Hezbollah's leadership and organization and furthering of their ally's geopolitical superiority and stability in the region. Don't get me wrong, I am glad terrorists like Nasrallah are dead, they are vile and evil just like terrorists everywhere, Hezbollah and Hamas chose to inflict damage on innocent civilian lives - they didn't care for the children they killed either when it was 'fair game' for their strategic aims.

But my takeaway from this is strengthening of a belief I've had for a while. The pain that I and many others like me feel as a bystander for the suffering of blameless children, of innocent civilians whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - be it in Israel on Oct 7, Gaza the months since, or in Beirut yesterday - this pain and suffering is universal and inevitable. If I am in the wrong place at the wrong time, I will lose loved ones and suffer loss and death as well, there will be none to stand up for me - the same for any poster reading this. We'd all like to believe in and hope for a world where innocent lives and civilians are protected, and in leaders and institutions that stand up for these beliefs, but that world does not and will not exist. Leaders who take us towards such a world - the Gandhis, the Mandelas, the MLKs - are exceptions and outliers, not the norm. The reality is that we live in a Darwinian world where only strength prevails. Where land belongs to the people who win the fight for it, where peace belongs to the people who can nuke their enemies first, where the privilege of declaring what is right and doing otherwise belongs to those countries with the most amount of money and most powerful armies. This is who we are as a species, we are incapable of anything more.

Instead of the 'precise' bombing from IDF and the 'retaliation' from Hezbollah (I am aware of the skew), we would have liked for an inspirational leader in world politics - no matter the country - who could have guided this historically violent and complex geopolitical conflict towards peace with non-violence, by protecting civilian lives and ensuring innocent lives are not affected. We would have liked for a ceasefire first, then diplomatic talks that led to a resolution, then actions taken to appease the inevitable resentment born out of any resolution, then years of lower violence till the status quo of the Middle East was peace. Since we lacked the outlier leaders who could have made this possible - this violence was the only probabilistic outcome.

'What happens next?' was a stupid question from me, in a way. The answer has been the same across all wars through the millenia - doesn't matter if it colonials seizing land and killing natives, doesn't matter if it rebels overthrowing an unjust government, doesn't matter if it is a war fought for ideological beliefs or human rights, or a religious crusade where non-believers are massacred - the result is always the same. The strong win and survive to write history, and the weak die. It's all very obvious, and I don't know why I've rambled on for so long, maybe I'm just overwhelmed after a long week in my personal life and thinking too much.
 
So berbatrick is for G. Is Netanyahu for G?
I don't know what Netanyahu secretly wants but if I had to guess it would be ethnic cleansing over a much longer period of time in the manner of a boiled frog. I don't think that's what we're currently seeing in Gaza. We might see it after the war ends if he blocks attempts to rebuild. He's certainly not a nice person. Because yes, when you move away from two state solutions, you by definition move towards one state solutions. That's inescapably true.
 
Instead of the 'precise' bombing from IDF and the 'retaliation' from Hezbollah (I am aware of the skew), we would have liked for an inspirational leader in world politics - no matter the country - who could have guided this historically violent and complex geopolitical conflict towards peace with non-violence, by protecting civilian lives and ensuring innocent lives are not affected. We would have liked for a ceasefire first, then diplomatic talks that led to a resolution, then actions taken to appease the inevitable resentment born out of any resolution, then years of lower violence till the status quo of the Middle East was peace. Since we lacked the outlier leaders who could have made this possible - this violence was the only probabilistic outcome.

'What happens next?' was a stupid question from me, in a way. The answer has been the same across all wars through the millenia - doesn't matter if it colonials seizing land and killing natives, doesn't matter if it rebels overthrowing an unjust government, doesn't matter if it is a war fought for ideological beliefs or human rights, or a religious crusade where non-believers are massacred - the result is always the same. The strong win and survive to write history, and the weak die. It's all very obvious, and I don't know why I've rambled on for so long, maybe I'm just overwhelmed after a long week in my personal life and thinking too much.
If it's any solace, this is basically where I arrive now. We desperately needed a figure to stand up for peace and be charismatic enough to get large support, while also powerful enough to actually influence real-world actions. Instead you have zealots on both sides. While there have been instances of Israeli PMs actually wanting a two-state solution, that is not the case now. And obvioulsy Hezbollah/Hamas don't either. We're stuck in the worst case situation - the two players only agreeing on one thing: the goal is the elimination of the other.

In most situations, this would mean the 'adult' has to step in and separate the toddlers. But for whatever reason, the rest of the world isn't. It's vastly over-simplistic to just blame the US, but that seems the cool thing to do. But where is the EU? Where is the rest of the ME leadership?

The fastest off-ramp I can see is the removal of Netanyahu, but all that internal momentum has unfortuantely dried up.
 
If it's any solace, this is basically where I arrive now. We desperately needed a figure to stand up for peace and be charismatic enough to get large support, while also powerful enough to actually influence real-world actions. Instead you have zealots on both sides. While there have been instances of Israeli PMs actually wanting a two-state solution, that is not the case now. And obvioulsy Hezbollah/Hamas don't either. We're stuck in the worst case situation - the two players only agreeing on one thing: the goal is the elimination of the other.

In most situations, this would mean the 'adult' has to step in and separate the toddlers. But for whatever reason, the rest of the world isn't. It's vastly over-simplistic to just blame the US, but that seems the cool thing to do. But where is the EU? Where is the rest of the ME leadership?

The fastest off-ramp I can see is the removal of Netanyahu, but all that internal momentum has unfortuantely dried up.
Yes and no (in my view). Sure, the EU should grow a spine and dare to deviate from the US but the US is still the top dog supporting Israel and its power & influence means everyone in the region is cautious of going against the US. It's the US that should step up and take a leadership role but alas here we are with the Biden administration going along with everything.
 
I love that we're still doing bothsidesism after the last 12 months and 75 years before them.