Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

[langster]

In fact they resort to that rhetoric all the time. The actual reason is that the people who challenge the anti-Israeli rhetoric get thread banned. I got quite a few supportive messages from such people when I challenged the prevailing tone, before getting thread banned myself. Don't mistake that place for the real world. It's a Guardian reader echo chamber.

I live in the real world. Thanks though for the condescending advice.

 

[Kaos]

This is precisely the point I was making to @Raoul .

All this talk of moving forward by replacing Netanyahu with a seemingly more compliant partner for peace is pie in the sky stuff. The US has locked itself into an uncompromising position with Israel, forced to back it and defend it to no end. The Israelis know they have them by the gonads, hence why they're recklessly pushing their luck. The US at some point needs to grow a pair and draw a red line somewhere. Otherwise they'll be implicated for even more destruction and suffering, all the while further chipping away at their international credibility.

 

[africanspur]

Classic Glazed.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

I applaud you revising your own viewpoints, but something I'm still curious about.

Prior to October 7th, did you not feel any unease or objection to the status quo, namely the role Israel was playing in subjugating the Palestinians and colonising the west bank? This isn't me trying to catch you out btw, I'm genuinely curious as to what shaped your holistic view of the conflict (outside of the positive interactions you've had with your trips to Israel and coming into contact with their IDF personnel).

I mostly tend to view outcomes and situations as a long term strategic game. Decisions made by a peoples or a group or a nation that cements itself a place in history is a way to judge current events as opposed to using pure morality - barring the most egregious of circumstances and scenarios (like what we are seeing today, or Armenian genocide, or the holocaust, for example.) I've long given up on the view we should view nation states on a purely moral lens because frankly we'd all be left disappointed. I've had a lot of real world experience in this scenario where "National interest" clearly beats "Right thing to do" and it's helped me shape my worldview.

I had a positive view of Israel because it made strategically sound, logical and ultimately decisive moves in order to gain and maintain a positive status quo in the balance of power. From a series of military victories, to diplomatic victories and strategic state-building policies that placated previously aggressive neighbours, turning them into frosty allies and partners. All of this was done whilst maintaining broad international support and never crossing arbitrary lines set by the international community. Truly, it's an example of excellent statecraft over half a century, carefully crated and curated. I could turn a blind eye to their Gaza policy, their West bank policy (though some things made no sense like Settler encroachments, that was always a "But why?" moment for me) because though brutal, it wasn't anything that didn't fit within a historical or even a semi-modern context. It was no different than American statecraft, or European post-war foreign policy. Whilst hard on the eye - it fell within degrees of normalcy still palatable to the conscience given the struggles of most geopolitical situations.

On the other hand, I felt that the Palestinian cause has old been littered with own goals and self-inflicted wounds. Alienating pan-arab nations, such as Egypt, and trying to coup the regime of Jordan that lent a helping hand in providing aid to the displaced peoples of Palestine. Embracing scorched-earth policy that alienated the Saudi's from ever committing fully to the cause despite ideological reasons to. Combine this was an all or nothing approach to geopolitics (The unwillingness to compromise in an pretty unreachable objective, aka the return of everything back to pre 1948), I felt that the broad Palestinian cause at a strategic level reached the point where we are today due to their own mistakes. Losing the support of Jordan and Egypt, alienating the Lebanese government and playing with fire with the Iranians were all part of this failure. I still feel that many decisions made post Nabka up until now would have resulted in a exponentially better status quo for the Palestinian peoples had they been different.

Then 10/7 happened and over the coming weeks and months that arbitrary line of acceptability in realpolitik's got crushed. Not for a long time has solving a problem by bombing the civilian population into absolute submission been acceptable outside the confines of Total War. Only this isn't Total war - this is a nation that is in control, surrounded by allies and their enemies cannot reach them or at weak to the point of rump states. There is just no justification for this brutality, this horrendous lack of regard for Civilian life. This is not World War Two, a fight to the very death between peer rivals. This was a beatdown that served no strategic purpose. Worst, this was done by a democratic nation. I guess you can say the carefully curated mask of decency and sanity and rationality that the Israeli's put up both on the international stage and on every day micro-interactions finally dropped. It's as if the collective people and government of Israel went insane over 10.7.

The likelier answer to that point is that this has always been the mentality - only the mask has now dropped. IDF officers whom I worked with in the past, that seemed reasonable, caring and seemed to "understand" the "other side", suddenly turned to bloodthirsty genocidal vessels overnight. Whatsapp groups of retired, respected former work partners turned into chants of genocide, "Wipe them off the map" etc.

It has truly been eye opening watching this unfold.

 

[VorZakone]

I mostly tend to view outcomes and situations as a long term strategic game. Decisions made by a peoples or a group or a nation that cements itself a place in history is a way to judge current events as opposed to using pure morality - barring the most egregious of circumstances and scenarios (like what we are seeing today, or Armenian genocide, or the holocaust, for example.) I've long given up on the view we should view nation states on a purely moral lens because frankly we'd all be left disappointed. I've had a lot of real world experience in this scenario where "National interest" clearly beats "Right thing to do" and it's helped me shape my worldview.

I had a positive view of Israel because it made strategically sound, logical and ultimately decisive moves in order to gain and maintain a positive status quo in the balance of power. From a series of military victories, to diplomatic victories and strategic state-building policies that placated previously aggressive neighbours, turning them into frosty allies and partners. All of this was done whilst maintaining broad international support and never crossing arbitrary lines set by the international community. Truly, it's an example of excellent statecraft over half a century, carefully crated and curated. I could turn a blind eye to their Gaza policy, their West bank policy (though some things made no sense like Settler encroachments, that was always a "But why?" moment for me) because though brutal, it wasn't anything that didn't fit within a historical or even a semi-modern context. It was no different than American statecraft, or European post-war foreign policy. Whilst hard on the eye - it fell within degrees of normalcy still palatable to the conscience given the struggles of most geopolitical situations.

On the other hand, I felt that the Palestinian cause has old been littered with own goals and self-inflicted wounds. Alienating pan-arab nations, such as Egypt, and trying to coup the regime of Jordan that lent a helping hand in providing aid to the displaced peoples of Palestine. Embracing scorched-earth policy that alienated the Saudi's from ever committing fully to the cause despite ideological reasons to. Combine this was an all or nothing approach to geopolitics (The unwillingness to compromise in an pretty unreachable objective, aka the return of everything back to pre 1948), I felt that the broad Palestinian cause at a strategic level reached the point where we are today due to their own mistakes. Losing the support of Jordan and Egypt, alienating the Lebanese government and playing with fire with the Iranians were all part of this failure. I still feel that many decisions made post Nabka up until now would have resulted in a exponentially better status quo for the Palestinian peoples had they been different.

Then 10/7 happened and over the coming weeks and months that arbitrary line of acceptability in realpolitik's got crushed. Not for a long time has solving a problem by bombing the civilian population into absolute submission been acceptable outside the confines of Total War. Only this isn't Total war - this is a nation that is in control, surrounded by allies and their enemies cannot reach them or at weak to the point of rump states. There is just no justification for this brutality, this horrendous lack of regard for Civilian life. This is not World War Two, a fight to the very death between peer rivals. This was a beatdown that served no strategic purpose. Worst, this was done by a democratic nation. I guess you can say the carefully curated mask of decency and sanity and rationality that the Israeli's put up both on the international stage and on every day micro-interactions finally dropped. It's as if the collective people and government of Israel went insane over 10.7.

The likelier answer to that point is that this has always been the mentality - only the mask has now dropped. IDF officers whom I worked with in the past, that seemed reasonable, caring and seemed to "understand" the "other side", suddenly turned to bloodthirsty genocidal vessels overnight. Whatsapp groups of retired, respected former work partners turned into chants of genocide, "Wipe them off the map" etc.

It has truly been eye opening watching this unfold.

I don't understand the bolded paragraph. Israel's West Bank policy just...didn't concern you enough?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

I don't understand the bolded paragraph. Israel's West Bank policy just...didn't concern you enough?

It was concerning, but not "enough" of a concern in the broader picture.

I view this from a very pro-western lens. All this must be viewed from a positive/negative analysis. If it were a choice of partner between:

A functional, competent, 'democratic' country with a tendency to really push the grey area of the norms of international behaviour vs an unpredictable displaced peoples with a tendency to make strategic mistakes littered with strings of failed decisions, the choice was pretty apparent for me.

That has turned to

"A genocidal, irrational, religious-zealot run country led by a criminal" so the calculus changes heavily. The positives of Israel from a geopolitical POV outweighed the moral negatives up until 10/7. After that, their behaviour could no longer be tolerated, all lines were crossed and we're into new territory that do not sit within international norms any longer.

This is the same logic for MBS. Do I wish Saudi Arabia weren't so brutal? Yes, absolutely. Things like killing the journalist in Turkey is grim, but it's no different than how we operate. Only, we're far more competent and do not get caught. That "standard-procedure" of operation, defined arbitrarily over decades of behavioural normalization is my 'moral line'.

 

[2mufc0]

Probably because those that remain are mainly articulate, intelligent or knowledgeable posters who can discuss without name calling or offensive comments, without sarcasm, trolling and in good faith. They don't resort to inflammatory rhetoric or baseless propaganda and conspiracy bullshit either. If you're suggesting that it's only left leaning & liberal posters that use the thread that's probably because those on the right can't discuss without resoering to everything I mentioned above. For the record, there have been a fair few left leaning & liberal posters banned or threadbanned too.

There are also a few right wing posters still posting there too, but not many as it's no secret that this forum especially, but the majority of middle aged or younger posters in the world are left leaning or more liberal leaning. Just look at the UK riots going on or Trump supporters, fair right voters are usually less well educated or just filled with hate of anything except what they believe in, especially if that involves a religion they don't like or of a different race.

It's also highly likely that many right wing posters on here just stay out the threads or this particular forum because they know they will be banned if they spoke their true thoughts and feelings. Or, especially with the Palestine thread, they know they have no excuses or arguments against what is going on, so why bother?

This is a brilliant post.

Unfortunately most right wingers have this victim complex that they are being unfairly subdued or their free speech is being curtailed, when it just comes down to people not wanting to put up with their lack of compassion, nastiness and dishonesty.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Kaos]

I mostly tend to view outcomes and situations as a long term strategic game. Decisions made by a peoples or a group or a nation that cements itself a place in history is a way to judge current events as opposed to using pure morality - barring the most egregious of circumstances and scenarios (like what we are seeing today, or Armenian genocide, or the holocaust, for example.) I've long given up on the view we should view nation states on a purely moral lens because frankly we'd all be left disappointed. I've had a lot of real world experience in this scenario where "National interest" clearly beats "Right thing to do" and it's helped me shape my worldview.

I had a positive view of Israel because it made strategically sound, logical and ultimately decisive moves in order to gain and maintain a positive status quo in the balance of power. From a series of military victories, to diplomatic victories and strategic state-building policies that placated previously aggressive neighbours, turning them into frosty allies and partners. All of this was done whilst maintaining broad international support and never crossing arbitrary lines set by the international community. Truly, it's an example of excellent statecraft over half a century, carefully crated and curated. I could turn a blind eye to their Gaza policy, their West bank policy (though some things made no sense like Settler encroachments, that was always a "But why?" moment for me) because though brutal, it wasn't anything that didn't fit within a historical or even a semi-modern context. It was no different than American statecraft, or European post-war foreign policy. Whilst hard on the eye - it fell within degrees of normalcy still palatable to the conscience given the struggles of most geopolitical situations.

On the other hand, I felt that the Palestinian cause has old been littered with own goals and self-inflicted wounds. Alienating pan-arab nations, such as Egypt, and trying to coup the regime of Jordan that lent a helping hand in providing aid to the displaced peoples of Palestine. Embracing scorched-earth policy that alienated the Saudi's from ever committing fully to the cause despite ideological reasons to. Combine this was an all or nothing approach to geopolitics (The unwillingness to compromise in an pretty unreachable objective, aka the return of everything back to pre 1948), I felt that the broad Palestinian cause at a strategic level reached the point where we are today due to their own mistakes. Losing the support of Jordan and Egypt, alienating the Lebanese government and playing with fire with the Iranians were all part of this failure. I still feel that many decisions made post Nabka up until now would have resulted in a exponentially better status quo for the Palestinian peoples had they been different.

Then 10/7 happened and over the coming weeks and months that arbitrary line of acceptability in realpolitik's got crushed. Not for a long time has solving a problem by bombing the civilian population into absolute submission been acceptable outside the confines of Total War. Only this isn't Total war - this is a nation that is in control, surrounded by allies and their enemies cannot reach them or at weak to the point of rump states. There is just no justification for this brutality, this horrendous lack of regard for Civilian life. This is not World War Two, a fight to the very death between peer rivals. This was a beatdown that served no strategic purpose. Worst, this was done by a democratic nation. I guess you can say the carefully curated mask of decency and sanity and rationality that the Israeli's put up both on the international stage and on every day micro-interactions finally dropped. It's as if the collective people and government of Israel went insane over 10.7.

The likelier answer to that point is that this has always been the mentality - only the mask has now dropped. IDF officers whom I worked with in the past, that seemed reasonable, caring and seemed to "understand" the "other side", suddenly turned to bloodthirsty genocidal vessels overnight. Whatsapp groups of retired, respected former work partners turned into chants of genocide, "Wipe them off the map" etc.

It has truly been eye opening watching this unfold.

Thanks, not sure I entirely agree with your holistic view of it, but insightful nonetheless.

 

[Kaos]

Could these feckers leave Iraq alone for a minute FFS.

 

[2mufc0]

Could these feckers leave Iraq alone for a minute FFS.

It's a wider implication of Israel bombing the countries around them and Iran. You can be sure Iran have been instructing their proxies to ramp up the attacks after previous events.

 

[glazed]

Smotrich: Might be ‘justified and moral’ to cause 2 million Gazans to die of hunger, but world won’t let us

I mean if they actually did it you might have a point. Fact is they are letting food through. Hardly the actions of fanatics.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

It's quite incredible that ten months in and after one of the most brutal military campaigns since WWII, alongside the most documented genocide in human history which only resulted in the utter failure in defeating Hamas and completely isolating Israel on the international scene, you're still banging that drum.

Iran is a 3,000 years old major player in the region that will never go away. 46 years of sanctions, murders, and proxy-wars achieved the square root of feck all. Your view of the actors and dynamics in the region is a Disney one, watched through neo-con specs. What you advocated from day one after 10/7 will never never happen since Hamas is an idea. You defeat an idea with a better one, not with 2,000 pounds bombs or extra-judicial assassinations. Constantly poking at Iran will only lead to a major war in which there's no winner.

Hamas is a by-product of Israel's policies in the occupied territories, just like Hezbollah is a direct result of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. They aren't going anywhere no matter how many of their leaders you kill, unless you go for the root cause which is the Israeli Occupation of Palestine. Hamas will also be integrated one way or another into any serious peace talk, just like Arafat became a dialogue partner once Rabin understood that the hammer/nail policy lead to nowhere. A true shame that he was killed for seeing the light.

Terrorism is a very old, and highly subjective, political brand used to disqualify anyone the dominant side doesn't like. Hamas are terrorists, but so was Menachem Begin, a leader of Irgun before becoming Israel's PM. His organization was responsible for multiple acts of terrorism including attacks on civilians and the bombing of the King David Hotel. Or Yitzhak Shamir, terrorist, leader of the Lehi which carried out multiple massacres including Deir Yasin in 1948 and also future PM of Israel.

On a side note, it's absolutely amazing to see so many people firmly anchored in the democratic camp, including many posters here, cheering when Israel assassinates someone on foreign soil and continuously makes a mockery of every single international law. The cognitive dissonance, double standards and complete disintegration of any kind of moral compass taking place in this particular matter will be a case study for decades, if not centuries.

Just wanted to say after first finding your appearance on here in the beginning a tad arrogant, I now look forward to your well-written, educational and insightful posts. Please continue on this arc.

 

[africanspur]

I mean if they actually did it you might have a point. Fact is they are letting food through. Hardly the actions of fanatics.

Ah right, so you need to actually kill 100% of a population through starvation before you're deemed a fundamentalist in your world.

Just saying you want to do it and are being constrained only by the international community. Now that's a logical, well intentioned actor.

Perhaps most importantly, they are barely letting food through at all.

Like I said, you're a genuine nutter.

 

[glazed]

This is a brilliant post.

Unfortunately most right wingers have this victim complex that they are being unfairly subdued or their free speech is being curtailed, when it just comes down to people not wanting to put up with their lack of compassion, nastiness and dishonesty.

Oh the compassion and kindness of supporting Hamas. Do you have any awareness at all of who you are cheering on? Do you think they want a two state nirvanna with Jew and Muslim holding hands under the kind smile of your compassion and truth? Read their literature. They want to wipe Israel off the map. That's not what I say. It's what they say over and over. So who's being dishonest?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Ah right, so you need to actually kill 100% of a population through starvation before you're deemed a fundamentalist in your world.

Just saying you want to do it and are being constrained only by the international community. Now that's a logical, well intentioned actor.

Perhaps most importantly, they are barely letting food through at all.

Like I said, you're a genuine nutter.

Nah I think he just thrives off being a contrarian. The typical "akshually" type you see on reddit.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Oh the compassion and kindness of supporting Hamas. Do you have any awareness at all of who you are cheering on? Do you think they want a two state nirvanna with Jew and Muslim holding hands under the kind smile of your compassion and truth? Read their literature. They want to wipe Israel off the map. That's not what I say. It's what they say over and over. So who's being dishonest?

Oh mate do feck off, nobody is cheering on Hamas, implicitly or explicitly.

Nobody wants to see tens of thousands of civilians being bombed into dust and Israel can stop that whenever it wants.

 

[2mufc0]

Oh the compassion and kindness of supporting Hamas. Do you have any awareness at all of who you are cheering on? Do you think they want a two state nirvanna with Jew and Muslim holding hands under the kind smile of your compassion and truth? Read their literature. They want to wipe Israel off the map. That's not what I say. It's what they say over and over. So who's being dishonest?

Another lie, how many people in the main thread are supporting Hamas? I'll be waiting.

 

[glazed]

Like I said, you're a genuine nutter.

Please post respectfully. Your echo chamber does not encompass all the voices of sanity. I suggest you take a closer look at who you are on the side of.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Please post respectfully. Your echo chamber does not encompass all the voices of sanity. I suggest you take a closer look at who you are on the side of.

Your entire premise here is disrespectful and taking us on a joyride of intellectual dishonesty.

Do you think that wanting Israel to stop bombing innocent civilians (40,000+ of them at the very least) equates to supporting Hamas?

 

[glazed]

Oh mate do feck off, nobody is cheering on Hamas, implicitly or explicitly.

Nobody wants to see tens of thousands of civilians being bombed into dust and Israel can stop that whenever it wants.

Israel will stop when it gets its hostages back and when Hamas is defeated. That's a legitimate war aim given what happened. Hamas knew all this would happen when they started the conflict. They literally use the Gazan population as human shields. If they handed them back and left Gaza the war would end tomorrow.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Israel will stop when it gets its hostages back and when Hamas is defeated. That's a legitimate war aim given what happened. Hamas knew all this would happen when they started the conflict. They literally use the Gazan population as human shields. If they handed them back and left Gaza the war would end tomorrow.

This is insane - you're basically saying for the case of +-150 hostages, it's okay to blow an entire population to glass because the "other side" started it?

 

[Kaos]

It's a wider implication of Israel bombing the countries around them and Iran. You can be sure Iran have been instructing their proxies to ramp up the attacks after previous events.

Yeah I get that, just wish they'd keep Iraq out of it. Every time the country looks like its finally returning to a semblance of normality they get dragged into this nonsense and get caught right in the middle. Its the same for other countries but I'll selfishly say I think the Iraqis have seen enough death and destruction for several lifetimes.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Israel will stop when it gets its hostages back and when Hamas is defeated. That's a legitimate war aim given what happened. Hamas knew all this would happen when they started the conflict. They literally use the Gazan population as human shields. If they handed them back and left Gaza the war would end tomorrow.

Just because there's legitimate military targets in a vicinity does not give them the right to have overwhelming civilian collateral.

 

[africanspur]

Please post respectfully. Your echo chamber does not encompass all the voices of sanity. I suggest you take a closer look at who you are on the side of.

Nah I'm good thanks. I've been on this board over a decade, been involved in all kinds of debates on all kinds of topics and always posted respectfully, with no hint of a warning.

I work with orthodox Jews/ have orthodox jews in my circles who have essentially espoused genocidal views during this conflict and even they can admit that the likes of Smotrich and Ben Gvir are fundamentalists.

Literally nobody here is on the side of Hamas.

Your views are genuinely scummy though and calling you a nutter is about as polite as I can bring myself to be. If you genuinely believe the stuff you're saying, you are a scumbag and I'll take my infraction.

 

[Spoony]

That is very key. A lot of people who have zero knowledge of Iranian history and revolution don't comprehend that this was purely an "ideological" revolution. It was also allowed to take place because it benefited (At the time) both sides of the cold war. The problem was that the Shah was 50 years ahead of his people in. terms of vision, class, elegance, and overall world outlook. He was also getting extremely powerful (He literally ran OPEC which led to price of oil quadrupling in early 1970s massively benefiting Iran )even for the Western elite, and hence he had to be taken out by combining the two forces of Islamism and Communism (Toudeh party + MEK). Jimmy Carter is the most despised man in Iran and I'm sure you'll see clips of people celebrating on the streets once the prick kicks the buck.

It honestly sucks. It's the only country in the world where the past looks like its future. We had a more reputable passport than most European countries, one of the fastest growing economies in the world, massive modernization, women in Iran got the right to vote before Swiss women, Iran was also one of the favourites to host the 1990s World Cup actually before the revolution happening...all of these were happening when Dubai and Abu Dhabi were desserts and some were still commuting with camels.

And now what we are? We are nothing. We have the second worst passport in the world. Our ruling regime hates the concept of Iran and Persian culture. They're actively trying to destroy Persepolis and thomb of Cyrus the Great or anything resembling the ancient Iranian civizliation. Our economy is in literal. toilet (When Shah left Iran 2 weeks before the revolution, the exchange rate of Iranian TOMAN to USD was 7:1 , as of now, it's about 70,000 : 1). Our women are treated like animals, picked up on streets and shoved into vans, beaten up, for having their hair showing up...environmentally we're so mismanaged , the lakes keep drying (I'm very Esfahan and Zayandeh-Rood has no water anymore because of years of water mismanagement). Our best football stadium and hospitcal is still built 50 years ago by SHAH (Aryamehr Stadium , now name changed to Azadi).

We have a wealth of natural resources, oil and gas, that is never spent on its own nation. All our money goes abroad to "Resistence Axis" while the people inside get poorer and poorer. The regime says it supports Palestine/Hezbollah/Houthi/Assad/ etc to protect "Islamic values" , yet Palestinian and Lebanese women are allowed to go to Olympics in normal swimming outfit, whereas Iranian women themselves are banned by the regime.

so @berbatrick , while yes, Palestine might be a loser of a relatively free Iran (I honestly don't care about democratic part as much as a regime that just. cares about its own people. I'll gladly take a Bin Zayed or MBS type, I don't expect us to be a Finland liberal democracy, because this is Middle East we're talking about), the Iranian nation and people will be winners.

After 45 years of misery, downgrade, abuse, and not ever ever being proud of my country's flag....that's the single issue I personally care about. Plus, It is possible to have a gov't that can cooperate both with Israel and the Arab States and even Palestine. Life doesn't have to be black or white. In fact, The Shah was one of the first people who brought the Jewish control of Western media to public in 1976. (so much for a so called "puppet" that Western far left academia brainwash their audience about him).

Muhammad Reza Phelavi. I knew a Iranian girl who loved the former Shah because she and her family were loaded during his regime and they all looked down on the 'peasants' but sadly had to endure a nomal life in the UK. Not a nice lot.

 

[Kaos]

Israel will stop when it gets its hostages back and when Hamas is defeated. That's a legitimate war aim given what happened. Hamas knew all this would happen when they started the conflict. They literally use the Gazan population as human shields. If they handed them back and left Gaza the war would end tomorrow.

Not sure why I'm bothering to engage, but I'll bite. Israel have stated its objectives are to return the hostages home and to destroy Hamas. Its the latter which is problematic, more so when they've killed 40,000 people and counting, the relatives of which will fall straight into Hamas' arms, or failing that something that could replace it. Put aside the sheer civilian collateral and ask yourself if this is an even remotely plausible strategy.

 

[2mufc0]

Yeah I get that, just wish they'd keep Iraq out of it. Every time the country looks like its finally returning to a semblance of normality they get dragged into this nonsense and get caught right in the middle. Its the same for other countries but I'll selfishly say I think the Iraqis have seen enough death and destruction for several lifetimes.

Yeah I feel you, that's a consequence of the US still having a presence there as well as Iran having their proxies operating there. I wish the whole region was left alone from foreign powers from all sides.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Yeah I feel you, that's a consequence of the US still having a presence their as well as Iran having their proxies operating there. I wish the whole region was left alone from foreign powers from all sides.

Despite their public rhetoric, the Iraqi government wants US military presence there.

It really eases their own necessity to build a functional defence force which is proving to be very difficult as corruption is still very rife.

 

[2mufc0]

Another lie, how many people in the main thread are supporting Hamas? I'll be waiting.

I've said this before, but supporting Hamas (a proscribed terrorist organisation ) is a crime in a lot of countries, so the accusation is quite a serious one.

 

[Kaos]

Despite their public rhetoric, the Iraqi government wants US military presence there.

It really eases their own necessity to build a functional defence force which is proving to be very difficult as corruption is still very rife.

They've come leaps and bounds since the ISIS campaign tbh. There's still the issue of rampant corruption as well as excessive Iranian embedment, but the security forces on the whole are a much more matured and capable outfit compared to whatever the feck they were supposed to be in 2003-2014.

 

[glazed]

This is insane - you're basically saying for the case of +-150 hostages, it's okay to blow an entire population to glass because the "other side" started it?

It's Ok to kill Hamas. In fact it's obligatory. If they insist on hiding behind their own population that's on them. If a bunch of religious fanatics came and raped, kidnapped and murdered my people I'd do the same. I wouldn't care who I had to go through.

In a perfect world there would be peace and a two state solution. That's what most people want, including me. It's clear now that's not going to happen. So the alternative is war. That's what war is like. If you don't like it, don't start it. If you don't like it, stop. Hand back the hostages. Don't say you'll do it all again first chance you get. Hamas won't do any of those things because war is what they want.

That said I don't think the Israelis are attempting genocide or ethnic cleansing. If they were it would look far worse than this.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

It's Ok to kill Hamas. In fact it's obligatory. If they insist on hiding behind their own population that's on them. If a bunch of religious fanatics came and raped, kidnapped and murdered my people I'd do the same. I wouldn't care who I had to go through.

In a perfect world there would be peace and a two state solution. That's what most people want, including me. It's clear now that's not going to happen. So the alternative is war. That's what war is like. If you don't like it, don't start it. If you don't like it, stop. Hand back the hostages. Don't say you'll do it all again first chance you get. Hamas won't do any of those things because war is what they want.

That said I don't think the Israelis are attempting genocide or ethnic cleansing. If they were it would look far worse than this.

You have absolutely no fecking clue what war is like. You have no idea how the people on the ground feel in a situation like this and how unnormalized this is. This is not typical "war", this is a fecking massacre. You are sat here trying to tell people what war is like despite never being 1000km within a warzone.

An asymmetrical war does not look like this and should never look like this.

As for not caring who you had to go through, I am so so so glad you are not in the military and are keyboard warrioring instead.

You have absolutely no idea how wars of this nature are meant to be conducted and you've just decided to conjure up absolute bullshit to justify your asinine opinions.

 

[glazed]

Your views are genuinely scummy though and calling you a nutter is about as polite as I can bring myself to be. If you genuinely believe the stuff you're saying, you are a scumbag and I'll take my infraction.

I think you're safe. Your point of view is the anointed and received wisdom here. But it's only one side of the story and the people who tell it aren't as nice as you think.

 

[Kaos]

Muhammad Reza Phelavi. I knew a Iranian girl who loved the former Shah because she and her family were loaded during his regime and they all looked down on the 'peasants' but sadly had to endure a nomal life in the UK. Not a nice lot.

Sounds a lot like the Miami lot under the good ol days of Batista.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

They've come leaps and bounds since the ISIS campaign tbh. There's still the issue of rampant corruption as well as excessive Iranian embedment, but the security forces on the whole are a much more matured and capable outfit compared to whatever the feck they were supposed to be in 2003-2014.

They've improved for sure, and since 2020 (which is my last real meaningful reference point), they've actually got soldiers who actually want to be there and feel like they want to fight for Iraq as a nation state.

But, i'll be perfectly honest, I would still not trust any of the brigades to be combat effective, mainly due to huge problems in non-enlisted leadership.

 

[NYAS]

Not too long ago the troll posted something along the lines of “Arab civilizations are barbaric”.

Stop giving him attention and he’ll feck off.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

They've come leaps and bounds since the ISIS campaign tbh. There's still the issue of rampant corruption as well as excessive Iranian embedment, but the security forces on the whole are a much more matured and capable outfit compared to whatever the feck they were supposed to be in 2003-2014.

To be honest I'm still shocked when I read about the Iraqi 1st Division, armed with Abrams and other western assets, with western equipped air support being defeated and destroyed by 2000 ISIS fighters in Toyota Hilux's.

 

[Kaos]

To be honest I'm still shocked when I read about the Iraqi 1st Division, armed with Abrams and other western assets, with western equipped air support being defeated and destroyed by 2000 ISIS fighters in Toyota Hilux's.

I mean we all saw it coming, suppose that's what happens when you build up an officer corps consisting almost solely of nepotistic appointments. Like it or not they were bailed out by the militias composed of zealots who considered it an honour to die as part of some holy crusade. The same feckers who are now being used as pawns in this silly proxy war.

 

[Pav1878]

It's Ok to kill Hamas. In fact it's obligatory. If they insist on hiding behind their own population that's on them. If a bunch of religious fanatics came and raped, kidnapped and murdered my people I'd do the same. I wouldn't care who I had to go through.

In a perfect world there would be peace and a two state solution. That's what most people want, including me. It's clear now that's not going to happen. So the alternative is war. That's what war is like. If you don't like it, don't start it. If you don't like it, stop. Hand back the hostages. Don't say you'll do it all again first chance you get. Hamas won't do any of those things because war is what they want.

That said I don't think the Israelis are attempting genocide or ethnic cleansing. If they were it would look far worse than this.

Dear Sir, you may want to bone up on your history. This war did not start on October 7th. It started in 1948 with the Nakba when 750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes to make way for an Israeli state. You could say the stones were laid with the Balfour declaration before that.

I would also take exception to your comment about hostages. I agree that any Israeli hostages should be returned, in exchange for the many thousands of Palestinian hostages being held by Israel, which includes children. At the end of the day, the hostages taken by Hamas were for this purpose.

Please look up the definition of genocide and tell me this isn’t what we are seeing in Gaza. The ICJ think there is a plausible case of genocide.
Israel’s response has lacked proportionality, precaution and distinction. Civilians are being massacred in their tens of thousands including in their tents in so called safe zones. Tell me in which world is that OK?