Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

[Pav1878]

So you object to Israel's very existence, that's another conversation all together.
Just for the sake of precision, there was no Palestinian state before 1948, there was a British mandate, and before that there was a Othman rule. You can perhaps claim that every inch of land within those borders belonged to the Arabs who populated it, but that was not the territories legal status.

Wars have happened all across the globe and populations moved as a result of it, most moved on to create a better lives for themselves, while Palestinian leaders have chosen to persue terror instead and doomed their population to life long suffering because of that.

BTW, the West Bank was under Jordanian rule from 1948-1967, why was no Palestinian state established than?
BTW 2, Gaza has a border with Egypt, a border which Israel currently holds no control on, and yet the Egyptians keep it sealed shut, why do you not complain about the siege the Egyptians are enforcing on the Gazans?

whataboutery and selective facts.

I will deal with each of your points in turn:

1. should Israel have been established on Palestinian land? No. Should it now exist? Yes, as I don’t believe in now displacing a whole other population of people as well. A two state solution is the only realistic solution. But Israel should not continue in its current form with its current leadership, which has a genocidal agenda aimed at wiping out a whole population.

2. There was no Palestinian state before 1948: according to whom? The West? The UN? Who gets to say whether a people are a people or nation? It was under Ottoman rule and then British administration before 1948. So what? India was under British rule until 1947, does that not make India a nation?

if we are talking about who has a claim to that land, and if Zionists want to make it a biblical conversation about the land of Canaan, then we should look at what made up Canaan and who made up Canaan. It was on what we now call Palestine/Israel, Jordan and Lebanon. Therefore, the people of all those places could stake a claim to that land. It was not however, solely a Jewish land. Israeli Zionists say that they are the only real democracy and secular country in the Middle East, yet they also believe in Israel being a country only for Jews. So which is it, are you a secular democracy or a theocracy?

3. wars have happened all over the world and populations have moved. What is your point? That the Palestinians should just accept what’s happened to them? Would you? Would for example, Italy accept seizure of their land and just ‘move on?’ Of course not. They would fight, as the Palestinians are doing. It’s absurd to suggest they do anything else.

BTW 1: why would Jordan have anything to do with this conversation? Are they the mouthpiece or representation of Palestine? Stop bundling all Muslim or Arab people and countries into the same basket as if they all speak and act in unison. The fact it didn’t happen under Jordanian administration is a completely different question as to why Israel has acted the way it has and continues to do so.

BTW 2:

Do I have a problem with how Egypt have conducted themselves? Of course. They are not blameless and their submission to Israel’s wishes and the mess along the Philidelphi border is a massive problem. But last time I checked it wasn’t Egyptian bombs blowing up Palestinians and orphaning almost 20,000 children, leaving thousands more missing limbs, living in a tent in the cold and without food or water.

 

[Pav1878]

So you object to Israel's very existence, that's another conversation all together.
Just for the sake of precision, there was no Palestinian state before 1948, there was a British mandate, and before that there was a Othman rule. You can perhaps claim that every inch of land within those borders belonged to the Arabs who populated it, but that was not the territories legal status.

Wars have happened all across the globe and populations moved as a result of it, most moved on to create a better lives for themselves, while Palestinian leaders have chosen to persue terror instead and doomed their population to life long suffering because of that.

BTW, the West Bank was under Jordanian rule from 1948-1967, why was no Palestinian state established than?
BTW 2, Gaza has a border with Egypt, a border which Israel currently holds no control on, and yet the Egyptians keep it sealed shut, why do you not complain about the siege the Egyptians are enforcing on the Gazans?

oh and BTW you do realise that Israel was not a nation before 1948 either? Palestine was more of a nation than Israel before 1948. so what point are you trying to make?

 

[hasanejaz88]

oh and BTW you do realise that Israel was not a nation before 1948 either? Palestine was more of a nation than Israel before 1948. so what point are you trying to make?

Oh no he's going to bring about how it existing over 2000 years ago, as if we should now go back to how the world used to be at that time.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

And, as expected, this thread has descended into piss flinging as to whether Israel should have existed or not.

Brilliant, take this crap with you to the Gaza thread please.

 

[B. Munich]

But before it comes to that Russia etc would have joined in. The world would burn from the aftermath from the instability economically.

With what? Putin is already struggling in Ukraine. You think he wants (will be able) to open a second frontline?

 

[That_Bloke]

I think (hope) this will be a pre agreed face saving exercise for the embassy attack. A retaliation to cause a bit of damage in Israel and that will be that. Israeli defences will shoot down most if not all of the drones. If they really wanted to cause damage they'd be firing ballistic missiles.

Either way Iran has been building up to this since they orchestrated the October attacks.

 

[That_Bloke]

'cause it's being acted out. Not genuine. The iranian regime has to sell something to its people. It has to respond as Trump revealed following Suleimani's death, and it had like 12 days to coordinate with the US and hence Israel. Not that there won't be bombings and may be even deaths, but this is a way to contain what happened in Syria while selling something to the people.

Yep, that's the point.

 

[That_Bloke]

Iran will surely realize that they can do feck all to Israel.

They actually can even if they'd badly pay for it.

But that's not the point of this "attack".

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Revan]

They actually can even if they'd badly pay for it.

But that's not the point of this "attack".

They can hit it once with their ballistic missiles especially with Hezbollah at the same time throwing lots of their rockets to overwhelm the Israel defense system.

And then Lebanon becomes Gaza, and Teheran is massively hit, as are all the important military/nuclear assets of Iran.

 

[That_Bloke]

I don't see any logic in this attack. Not that they didn't have reason to do it. But one on one vs Israel would be tough. Now, they are alone against 5 or 6 countries. What they expect that will happen in next few days? They are fecked

It's a limited PR response just like when they attacked a US military base (after calling them to tell them where and when) after the assassination of General Suleimani by the US.

No, they are not. Nothing will happen if Israel doesn't decide to pour gasoline on the fire, once again.

 

[Idxomer]

This really re-awakened zionists to push more shameless propaganda here, huh?

 

[Revan]

Reading this thread, one might think that Israel fired hundreds of drones and dozens of rockets to Iran, not the other way around.

 

[That_Bloke]

This was after Biden explicitly told them not to.

Who gives a shit about what BIden says? Especially after he behaved in the past six months?

Why the feck should Iran accept their embassy being bombed without reply? Rules only apply to the ones you don't like?

In what world are you people living?

 

[Andycoleno9]

It's a limited PR response just like when they attacked a US military base (after calling them to tell them where and when) after the assassination of General Suleimani by the US.

No, they are not. Nothing will happen if Israel doesn't decide to pour gasoline on the fire, once again.

They will bomb Iran for sure.

 

[Kaos]

IRGC has been attacking Israel for decades via their proxies. Of course Israel is going to attack them, what on Earth do you expect.

By that logic NATO should be given the greenlight to bomb Russian consulates and embassies in other sovereign nations though. The issue isn't who they were targeting, but rather the fact they carried out a strike in another sovereign nation, killing civilians in the process, and risking an all out regional war. It was a reckless act of provocation which was only going to lead to further escalation.

The remaining part of your post is so stupid, I do not find a reason to reply.

Instead of giving a petulant reply you could try and explain what about it you find stupid. It's relevant since you mentioned duty and are presumably justifying Israel's aggression. So I was keen to gauge as to whether you thought Israel's campaign in Gaza was also a justifiable act of self defence.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Who gives a shit about what BIden says? Especially after he behaved in the past six months?

Why the feck should Iran accept their embassy being bombed without reply? Rules only apply to the ones you don't like?

In what world are you people living?

Real world. Powerful ones write rules. That is how things work in geopolitics.

 

[VorZakone]

Reading this thread, one might think that Israel fired hundreds of drones and dozens of rockets to Iran, not the other way around.

Not really though. It's just that the Iranian response didn't fall out of the sky (no pun intended). Israel has been increasingly aggressive and are acting pretty much unrestrained by the Biden administration. Can't exactly expect Iran to not respond after having its consulate bombed.

The point isn't that the Iranian regime are the good guys, the point is that the Israeli state is acting aggressive and unnecessarily inflaming the situation. And by doing that, they're creating more dangers for the Israeli people themselves IMO.

The Iranians have already signaled that they consider the matter concluded.

 

[nickm]

It's a limited PR response just like when they attacked a US military base (after calling them to tell them where and when) after the assassination of General Suleimani by the US.

No, they are not. Nothing will happen if Israel doesn't decide to pour gasoline on the fire, once again.

I am not sure approx 300 missiles and drones is a "limited PR response" given how badly wrong things could have gone. It could easily have been seen as a serious escalation (still could be if Israel was so minded), and worse if more missiles had gotten through. But Iran is apparently signalling a desire not to escalate further, so there is that.

 

[Giggsyking]

I know the overwhelmingly negative view everyone has on here regarding this war. We did not start it, and anyone who thinks any country can go about after an attack of the magnitute we suffered on October the 7th, is living in la la land.

I pray everyday that the war ends and that the suffering of innocent people everywhere stop. But no one in Israel, and rightfully so, will agree to keep living next to a terror organization that has proved it will stop at nothing to reek havok and kill as many of us as possible. And that to under the Iranian guidance that was mentioned above.

I believe that here a war is the worst solution here as well, and the best solution is for Hamas to surrender, free all hostages and allow for a new palestinian leadership to rise in Gaza, one that could work along side other arab nations to rehabilitate Gaza and allow this people to have a normal life. I truly and sicerely hope that this happens asap.

Pray harder, they need a state to live in as equals, not sympathy tears every now and then when you watch them being slaughtered from a comfy soffa on TV. Like it or not, they are the indigenous people of the land and they have (if not more than you) as much as you a right to live on the land.

 

[That_Bloke]

"Without targeting civilians?"

They targeted civilians, the ballistic missiles were aimed for Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem and co. You cannot state that Iran responded in minimal fashion because Israeli air defenses were competent.

I don't know about you, but to me a reaction to seeing your proxy commanders in Syria getting killed in an air strike is not a justification to launch hundreds of BM's and Drones at a country.

Come off it.

Israel didn't mind it when it hit the embassy. Or are you going to gloss over this minor detail?

And Iran wasn't going to strike an Israeli embassy on another country. They've been saying for days that they would attack, even leaked it right after the launch and you can be damn certain that they briefed the US and Israel about it and how it would unfold. The Iron Dome was more than enough to intercept the missiles and drones, and Iran perfectly knew it.

This "Israel good, Iran very, very bad" trope is getting old.

 

[Giggsyking]

How can you compare Ukraine with the Palestine?
The Ukraine didn't threaten or attacked Russia ever. Putin ambushed and wants to annihilate the country.

Whereas the Israel Palestine conflict lasts for almost 100 years, if not longer. Both sides carry their fair share of guilt and responsibility that it hasn't been resolved yet.
It's not as black and white like in Ukraine.

You are right, Israel is worse, they have been occupying Palestinian territories for more than 50 years now. Not only that, multiple massacres, ethnic cleansing, and now a genocide in the making.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Reading this thread, one might think that Israel fired hundreds of drones and dozens of rockets to Iran, not the other way around.

In some sense history does not change. Vasily Grossman wrote in 1980: Tell me what you accuse the Jews of, I’ll tell you what you are guilty of. One should not be suprised it is happening again and again.

 

[Idxomer]

You are right, Israel is worse, they have been occupying Palestinian territories for more than 50 years now. Not only that, multiple massacres, ethnic cleansing, and now a genocide in the making.

Zionists are clearly the good guys, they have been doing this and cheering on it for 6 months.

Spoiler

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Revan]

By that logic NATO should be given the greenlight to bomb Russian consulates and embassies in other sovereign nations though. The issue isn't who they were targeting, but rather the fact they carried out a strike in another sovereign nation, killing civilians in the process, and risking an all out regional war. It was a reckless act of provocation which was only going to lead to further escalation.

Well, Russia has nukes, Iran doesn't.

Talking about not-escalating further, Israel also has nukes and is the only country that nuke-less countries routinely attack.

Instead of giving a petulant reply you could try and explain what about it you find stupid. It's relevant since you mentioned duty and are presumably justifying Israel's aggression. So I was keen to gauge as to whether you thought Israel's campaign in Gaza was also a justifiable act of self defence.

Because your remaining of the post was petulant, and ad-hominem attack. No, I do not condone Israel actions in Gaza. From the beginning, I thought that the current approach would have been to attack Hamas and their sponsors (read: Iran and IRGC), especially their leaders wherever they are, instead of doing this humanitarian catastrophe that they did in Gaza. The likes of Meshal, Hanniyah and IRGC generals who sponsored the October massacre in my opinion are completely fair game, be it in Iran, Qatar, Lebanona, Iraq or Syria. So in that aspect, I salute Israel's strike in Iran 'consulate'.

 

[Revan]

Not really though. It's just that the Iranian response didn't fall out of the sky (no pun intended). Israel has been increasingly aggressive and are acting pretty much unrestrained by the Biden administration. Can't exactly expect Iran to not respond after having its consulate bombed.

The point isn't that the Iranian regime are the good guys, the point is that the Israeli state is acting aggressive and unnecessarily inflaming the situation. And by doing that, they're creating more dangers for the Israeli people themselves IMO.

The Iranians have already signaled that they consider the matter concluded.

Cool. But both sides need to conclude it, not only Iran. And Iran just fired 300 drones and missiles in Israel. So now it concludes when Israel say so.

For a start, I guess firing 300 missiles in Iran would make this equal and then conclude it?

 

[That_Bloke]

I am not sure approx 300 missiles and drones is a "limited PR response" given how badly wrong things could have gone. It could easily have been seen as a serious escalation (still could be if Israel was so minded), and worse if more missiles had gotten through. But Iran is apparently signalling a desire not to escalate further, so there is that.

Not wasting my time with this.

 

[VorZakone]

Cool. But both sides need to conclude it, not only Iran. And Iran just fired 300 drones and missiles in Israel. So now it concludes when Israel say so.

For a start, I guess firing 300 missiles in Iran would make this equal and then conclude it?

Huh? This was a reaction to Israel bombing the consulate. There's no need for Israel to keep upping the stakes.

 

[hellhunter]

Cool. But both sides need to conclude it, not only Iran. And Iran just fired 300 drones and missiles in Israel. So now it concludes when Israel say so.

For a start, I guess firing 300 missiles in Iran would make this equal and then conclude it?

Once they bombarded an Israeli embassy, sure

 

[Revan]

Huh? This was a reaction to Israel bombing the consulate. There's no need for Israel to keep upping the stakes.

Once they bombarded an Israeli embassy, sure

Yes, if we pretend that 1) the consulate had nothing to do with the IRGC and 2) wasn't serving as a headquarters in Syria for them, and if we pretend that 3) IRGC did not sponsor Hamas in their attack in October, and if we pretend that 4) the two generals killed there were not the Iranian people in charge who trained, made plans and sponsored Hamas in that attack, then sure, Israel are to be blamed.

But considering all those 4 assumptions are false, it was a fair game for Israel to strike there.

 

[Revan]

Once they bombarded an Israeli embassy, sure

They've been bombing Israel in daily basis via their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah for how long now? The northern Israel who is in vicinity of Hezbollah's attack has been pretty much completely evacuated but somehow God forbid Israel strikes back.

 

[nimic]

Can we please try to keep this thread on topic? There's a separate thread for Israel-Palestine.

 

[Gehrman]

Huh? This was a reaction to Israel bombing the consulate. There's no need for Israel to keep upping the stakes.

That depends on the definition of on the definition of proportional response. I think some consider the fact that Israel has the iron dome means that firing hundreds of missiles at it as a symbolic gesture. Im not sure the Israeli government, citizens and military feel the same way, but I dont believe because of their current war they are interested in a full on war with Iran.

 

[Gehrman]

Can we please try to keep this thread on topic? There's a separate thread for Israel-Palestine.

They aren't entirely unrelated hence the overlap.

 

[4bars]

Israel has been the most disruptive power in the Middle East? After the US?

Wait until you hear about the 80s my friend!

Looking at history, that region would be fighting if the US and Israel had never even heard of it. Hell good ole' Saddam personally ordered an order of magnitude more human beings murdered than then entirety of the Gazan conflict, since it started in 1948.

As easy (and right in the magnitude of destruction in Gaza) to point the fingers at the great Satan and Zionist rulers, there have been far worse, deadlier wars in the Middle East - recently- that have nothing to do with either.

In my liberal, seculiar mind, anywhere that features religion - any religion - so heavily in their ruling government is bound to end up fighting those that disagree with which sky fairy to worship.

Worse than Saddam Hussein? Who invaded Iran in a horrific bloody war and then invaded Kuwait.

Casualties don't even compare. 1-2 million in the iraq and iran war and totally pointless.

Ans who help saddam on his iran slaugther? The US. First because it was US interest to feck around with iran since WWII ending

Then saddam went rogue, but was the US who proppes him up

Then, israel is not just last year. They displaced +4 million of people out of their homes (2 million) and had killed hundreds of thousands muslims directly and others indirectly in their conflict vecinity. Without israel in the area nothing of this would never happened

 

[Idxomer]

How can anyone be calling for escalation from Israel when even the US think this should be the end of it? I mean Iran may or may not have gotten something out of it but it was clearly coordinated betwern all sides not to cause more escalation.

 

[nimic]

They aren't entirely unrelated hence the overlap.

Sure, but some people are posting things that clearly fit better in the other thread.

 

[That_Bloke]

How powerful are Iran? Do they stand a chance with their military and proxies against Israel and USA if it got to that?

No.

They can inflict massive damage to Israel though.

 

[4bars]

* Israel accepted the UN partition plan, palestinians started a war with all the arab countries who surrounded us. War has consquences, they could have gained control of 55% of the land back in 48 had they not initiated a war.

* Palestinians in the west bank live under the rule of the palestinian Authority, they are not israeli civilians. Arabs within the israeli borders have equel rights as any citizan should.

* I have my criticism on the settlements in the west bank. Non of which i will use as an excuse to justify the murder and kiddnapping of children, women and innocent people with a bullet to the head at the really best case. If you do, thats on you mate.

Sure, lets give 55% of the land to 30% of the population of which 90% were eruopeans. Lets give 55% of US to mexico because there is a good chunk of mexican immigrants