Can you give a non-Israel government source proving civilian centres were the targets of most of this attack?
Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic
- Thread starter Raoul
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Can you give a non-Israel government source proving civilian centres were the targets of most of this attack?
An escalating hot conflict isn't the thing to be worried about in my opinion. It's more about how the international community will look going forward because the status quo of the UN is done and dusted, what's the point of international law if a select few nations get to ignore it.
This is pretty incredible.
assuming Israel doesn't use its more serious weapons (atomic, tactical stuff, i don't know much about it) then I'd wager that there would be no clear winners.
I agree, but what were they supposed to do? Just ignore it and let it lie? It's not like they had many countries sticking up for them. Just look at the reporting, this retaliation is apparently unprovoked.
Bibi getting want he wants. He's been trying to provoke Iran or Hezbolla to attack since attacking Gaza. The attack on the Iranian consulate was such an obvious attempt to force an Iranian response.
Iran are caught between a rock and a hard place. They knew if they responded then Israel would use it as an excuse to escalate. But if they did nothing then they look weak and the regime has it's own image of strength to maintain. The fact they announced to the world exactly what they were going to do shows it's just a (deadly) PR campaign to save face from their end.
End result is eyes off Gaza and Bibi's incompetence. And onto a larger conflict with Iran. Imagine how sociopathic you must be as a 70-odd year old willing to insight a war just to cling onto power for a few more years. He should be spending his golden years in the Hague.
Iran are caught between a rock and a hard place. They knew if they responded then Israel would use it as an excuse to escalate. But if they did nothing then they look weak and the regime has it's own image of strength to maintain. The fact they announced to the world exactly what they were going to do shows it's just a (deadly) PR campaign to save face from their end.
End result is eyes off Gaza and Bibi's incompetence. And onto a larger conflict with Iran. Imagine how sociopathic you must be as a 70-odd year old willing to insight a war just to cling onto power for a few more years. He should be spending his golden years in the Hague.
Great post and nice view on Bibi changing the narrative and taking the focus away from Gaza and the West Bank. Bibi truly is a piece of shit.
The problem is they took the mask off, that Israel was all to happy to pretend to not fully know what lay underneath.
Having Hezbollah do the heavy lifting with their absurd missile/rocket inventory - gives plausible deniability, and off ramp for both parties and it lets Israel know that "Yes, it was actually Iran"
But Israel is the one who forced the mask off with a direct attack on Iran. Iran couldn’t continue to hide behind proxies in that scenario; they “had” to respond. Israel has goaded Iran into a direct conflict and at this point frankly controls what that escalation will look like.
You can say their massive drone and missile attack looks completely insane in response to a bomb on a consulate…. But you can’t remove the context Iran knowingly launched a salvo on arguably the world’s most advanced air-defence nation. There’s been what - 3 casualties from debris so far? Not even targeted hits. That’s still 13 less people than died in Israel’s attack. Also on higher value targets.
Iran can say project and say “we fired hundreds of drones and missiles!” in a show of strength knowing fine well that those hundreds of drones and missiles would do absolute minimal damage and not escalate to whatever calculated degree.
I'm basing that on the same assumption of course.
Netanyahu is a crazy bastard Idk if he's that crazy though. I hope....
Not even close.
Why couldn't they hide behind proxies? Everyone knows Hezbollah in this context = Iran. It allows them to save face, de-escalate and gives both themselves and Israel and Off-ramp.
Sure on paper, they "didn't do anything" but if Hezbollah suddenly launched 1000's of rockets at Israel we all know who gave the order.
Media not showing ground realities.
Biden let Netanyahu do whatever he wanted for 6 full months. The result: Israel attacks the consulate of a sovereign nation on the soil of another sovereign nation. The weakness or complacency of Biden over the past half a year led us to this point.
Biden is helping Israel as we write these posts. And of course Israelis would probably want Trump!
(And to be clear: Iran is a terrible actor and that regime should go, but I’m talking about this specific situation).
Biden is helping Israel as we write these posts. And of course Israelis would probably want Trump!
(And to be clear: Iran is a terrible actor and that regime should go, but I’m talking about this specific situation).
I just texted a family friend in US "Hi, why does US support Israel? I don't understand it." And the answer was "Read your bible" 
Not even close? The Iron Dome is the most tested and effective air defence system in the world. That’s a fact. In terms of actual national coverage and success rate it’s a fact.
To say “not even close” on Israel’s air defence capabilities, developed and funded alongside the US, would be like saying China isn’t even close to being one of the biggest economies in the world.
Because Iran was attacked openly and directly it had to respond openly and directly. It couldn’t hide behind a proxy. Why didn’t the US hide behind Israel for all Middle Eastern conflicts of the last 30 years when “provoked”? After all we’d all have known “who gave the order”.
The point of sending the message to save face gets completely undermined by hiding behind someone else? If it’s done for internal audience, what are they going to say? They’ve attacked as so, you know, a completely unrelated Hezbollah attack happened right after, wink wink?
It's hard being online when you hate Netanyahu, Hamas, and the Iranian theocrats. Every discussion devolves into demands for choosing a side and then accepting all the horrific shit they do.
Iron dome is the most effective and tested air defense system in the world...against short range, unguided, none-manouvering rockets with a ballistic trajectory. Hint: most of the intercepts today were not even by Iron Dome. It's completely useless against LRBM's and Cruise Missiles.
I am saying that Iran's Air defense system is mid tier. It has no segregation of concern against exoatmospheric and atmospheric targets, with Arrow 3 covering both. David's sling is a more cost efficient Patriot derivation when they realized that Pac-3 would cost too much. In fact, David's sling uses the same radar ANPQ-65 as Patriot, just they wanted a less effective, cheaper, kinetic inteceptor. Iron Dome was specifically built to intercept cheap shit by being the 'lo' in the 'lo-high' calculus of Air defense. Arrow 3 and David's Sling are the High.
Israel does not have naval BMD nor does it have any form of ICBM defense or GBI's, nor does it have exo-atmospheric Naval defense.
Israel has no real tactical red zone layered air defense in the form of something like D-E Shorad, M-Shorad or Pantsir. It has no multi layered, tridented missile tracking, relying almost entirely on ground based radar installations. It has no aerial based interceptors (though F-15 with AIM-120 may be able to do the job) and it does not have a networked, multi platform data link across all it's defense networks.
If Iran had launched a volley of 100+ Surface hogging cruise missiles (Thankfully they don't really have fully capable ones), Israel would be screwed without American help. No AWACS for top down data linked interception, no naval radar for early tracking. If Iran fired something akin to JASSM-ER, TLAM's or such, we'd be seeing devastation across Israel. Thankfully, they don't have any of that.
All in all, Israel is a solid 6.5 out of 10.
If your statement was "Israel has the best and most proven effective air defense against shitty short range rockets fired by militants who cannot afford the good stuff", sure.
But yeah, you've proven you have no idea what you're talking about.
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The Russians have got probably the best "theoretical" Land based Air Defense in the world. Reality is far different, due to corruption, incompetency, lack of proper implementation, corruption etc
But if you want to see what a real top tier Layered Air defense is meant to look like on paper: Take a look at this
Japan is another fantastic example of tridented, multi-facet layered air defense. Diagram doesn't include their THAAD's or their Tactical level stuff, which they have plenty of. But it's still far more comprehensive than Israel's.
But if you want to see what a real top tier Layered Air defense is meant to look like on paper: Take a look at this
Japan is another fantastic example of tridented, multi-facet layered air defense. Diagram doesn't include their THAAD's or their Tactical level stuff, which they have plenty of. But it's still far more comprehensive than Israel's.
Well, when I made that commitment to staying up till 6am to watch the ufc, I never thought being thoroughly educated on air defence systems would be part of the evening
It's the only reason I'm up as well. I missed the whole prelims following this shit.
Good thing Benny Dariush isn’t on this card!
Given Israel military sites are embedded in civilian areas and cities, they're clearly using human shields and as such these sites, using Israel's own logic when attacking Hamas, can be deemed as legitimate targets
Israel killed the person who effectively enabled Oct 7th. But you conveniently ignore that part.
I have no idea how representative the Redcafe is of global opinion, but it's pretty fascinating at least on here seeing how heavily Israel has lost the PR war over the last 7 months. I think much like Putin, Netanyahu has insulated himself from the reality of what the world thinks, and this is terrifyingly dangerous, especially as he's surrounded by idiotic right-wing hawks.
The pass people give Iran on here because of Israel's actions is amazing in my eyes. So they arm militias all over the region, just to f*ck things up and keep it unstable. So they enable the Houthi's to close a shipping a major shipping route, impacting the entire global trade network. So they fire literally hundreds of attacks on major cities. So they're a murderous regime that has made it impossible for one half of their population to have rights.
Yeah but guys, Iran's the good guys now, cause Gaza?
F*ck sake people.
The pass people give Iran on here because of Israel's actions is amazing in my eyes. So they arm militias all over the region, just to f*ck things up and keep it unstable. So they enable the Houthi's to close a shipping a major shipping route, impacting the entire global trade network. So they fire literally hundreds of attacks on major cities. So they're a murderous regime that has made it impossible for one half of their population to have rights.
Yeah but guys, Iran's the good guys now, cause Gaza?
F*ck sake people.
Where is the proof of that? That's the point being made, Israel can go along and kill whoever they want in a foreign country and none of the Western allies will bat an eye. And let's not act like this is the first time Israel has killed an Iranian, they went on a murder spree to stop their nuclear program as well.
As for Iran, they no full well they can't go on a full on war with Israel because they'll get trounced, not just because Israel is strong but they have the world's strongest armies as their allies while Iran has no allies in the region. It was purely theatre (why would they announce they are attacking if they were serious about it).
Not that it was a question to some people before but what this war has shown is that there aren't any 'good guys' in the world. Everyone only cares about their power and control in the world.
No one would defend Iran in isolation but when it comes to the how the West is allowing a possible genocide to take place in Gaza, along with the already decades long brutal war in Yemen they are financing, there can be a bit of sympathy for the side actually trying to fight back against the world's powers.
Like I said, no one in this is a good guy. The problem though is some people still think one side is.
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Yip just see the post below yours where someone responded to me saying there’s no proof that the person killed by Israel had any involvement in Oct 7th. It’s pretty obvious who a lot of the posters are if you read between the lines. Lines have been drawn and certain sides are supported purely due to one factor.
Especially if you also hate Putin, Modi, Xi, all the imperialist cnuts and the american military industrial complex. Unfortunately almost 30% of people support these far right bastards.
Iran are not the good guys, but israel is worse currently and had been the most disruptive power after the US, in thr region
Israel has been the most disruptive power in the Middle East? After the US?
Wait until you hear about the 80s my friend!
Looking at history, that region would be fighting if the US and Israel had never even heard of it. Hell good ole' Saddam personally ordered an order of magnitude more human beings murdered than then entirety of the Gazan conflict, since it started in 1948.
As easy (and right in the magnitude of destruction in Gaza) to point the fingers at the great Satan and Zionist rulers, there have been far worse, deadlier wars in the Middle East - recently- that have nothing to do with either.
In my liberal, seculiar mind, anywhere that features religion - any religion - so heavily in their ruling government is bound to end up fighting those that disagree with which sky fairy to worship.
Worse than Saddam Hussein? Who invaded Iran in a horrific bloody war and then invaded Kuwait.
Casualties don't even compare. 1-2 million in the iraq and iran war and totally pointless.
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Was any proof provided? Does that mean any country and go on and kill people they think we're involved in attacks against their citizens? Should Iran have killed Israeli military personnel in response to Israel killing their scientists involved in the nuclear program?
You're the one who has drawn lines but then don't like it when the other side call you out on it. I have no love for Iran until they give a little back to the powers who consider themselves holier than thou while committing ethnic cleansing and war crimes. Someone has to do it.
EDIT: Jesuz I don't know if it's people sticking their heads in the sand or just naivety when they are bringing up Saddam. Who the feck gave him the weapons and supported him throughout his murderous run in the 80s because he, completely unprovoked, went after their enemy? Saddam wouldn't nearly have the capabilities to do what he did without them.
This is what annoys the feck out of me. You give weapons to people knowing they are murderous dictators because you think they will do your bidding in the region and then try to wipe your hands clean when they go on a murderous run with the weapons you've given, taking no responsibility and instead blaming it only on the dictator. And then when people call you out on it you think we're supporting extremists.
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Realistically now, guess that's it between the 2 directly for a bit? Iran can claim thy did something, Israel can say they stopped it
We have to desperately hope so. Obviously Netanyahu is the wild card, one would hope that his blood lust would be sated at the moment with Gaza, but who knows.
If there's anything we've learned in the last six months it's that we must take Israel at its word.
Its a completely fair point to point out that the US sold chemical weapons sold chemical weapons to Saddam and those chemical attacks killed 20.000 thousand and left 80.000 injured. It would be more expedient to say that the US did this rather than using the word "You". Im from Denmark, who werent involved, and 1 year old when that war ended. I wasn't complicit and neither are my countrymen.
Edit: Actually the us didnt sell chemical weapons to Iraq. At least not as far as i can read. They may have supplied some components. That was a gaffe on my part. Germany played a part in that as well. Do you consider yourself conplicit in that?
https://www.peoplesworld.org/articl...es-that-gave-saddam-hussein-chemical-weapons/
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Agreed.
He'll likely want to escalate this, let's see if Biden and co let him, as in this case they'll need to cover his dirty ass.
So the damage by the unprecidentant attack is...
- Minor damage to an Israeli air base
- 30 odd people treated for anxiety
- A young girl seriously injured via shrapnel which is by far the worst of the damage. Hopefully she can make a full recovery.
As usually it is the case every morning, the neighbors down south invading our air space and flying their jets (I assume towards Syria). One would think they'd be pre-occupied with this Iran stuff but doesn't seem like it.