Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

Sky1981 said:
I dont think it's that simple. Do they have the resolve to shoot down Israel jet this time of the day? It means war if they do.
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Huh? You're suggesting Iran might choose not to shoot down Israeli jets coming to bomb them?
 
Simbo said:
Huh? You're suggesting Iran might choose not to shoot down Israeli jets coming to bomb them?
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Yes, plausible, if the aircraft is not violating their own airspace and they know Israel won’t attack any strategic targets (Nuclear + Oil) … it also depends what use the Russian have authorised.
 
Pintu said:
Yes, plausible, if the aircraft is not violating their own airspace and they know Israel won’t attack any strategic targets (Nuclear + Oil) … it also depends what use the Russian have authorised.
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Disagree with that completely. There's no way any country will allow a foreign entity to just enter their air space and let them do what they want. If Iran could've destroyed those jets they would have. War or no war.

The only thing I would say is that after doing some research I'm not sure Israel actually attacked any major bases that housed the s-400, although this is from Iranian sources, so could just be face saving.
 
the_cliff said:
Disagree with that completely. There's no way any country will allow a foreign entity to just enter their air space and let them do what they want. If Iran could've destroyed those jets they would have. War or no war.

The only thing I would say is that after doing some research I'm not sure Israel actually attacked any major bases that housed the s-400, although this is from Iranian sources, so could just be face saving.
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Which didn’t happen… And I said as much as well.
 
Pintu said:
Yes, plausible, if the aircraft is not violating their own airspace and they know Israel won’t attack any strategic targets (Nuclear + Oil) … it also depends what use the Russian have authorised.
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Eh, I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm talking about the thing that just happened about Israel bombing Iranian strategic targets, within Iran. That they and the whole world has known has been coming for a few weeks now and would have been doing everything within their power to prevent or mitigate.
 
Simbo said:
Eh, I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm talking about the thing that just happened about Israel bombing Iranian strategic targets, within Iran. That they and the whole world has known has been coming for a few weeks now and would have been doing everything within their power to prevent or mitigate.
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We do know for a fact that Israeli jets never reached Iranian airspace, they launched attacks from outside. And they avoided all the red lines that have been established between the USA and the Iranians (Nucler and Oil facilities). I do not believe that Russia has authorised Iran to use S-400 in such cases. Israel and Russia certainly discussed this directly.

You see when the Israeli army wants to burn children alive in Gaza, they do it from Gaza’s airspace (this has happened almost every single day of the ongoing genocide) because they can do it. Why did they attack Iran from outside the Iranian airspace?
 
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Simbo said:
Huh? You're suggesting Iran might choose not to shoot down Israeli jets coming to bomb them?
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The tweet mentioned Syrian and Iraq airspace. Not Iran

Technically Iraq and Syria isn't at war and they wont risk one over some aircraft flying over. Not that they like it but shooting down Israel jets are no small matter and would cause a new war that they can't afford
 
Sky1981 said:
The tweet mentioned Syrian and Iraq airspace. Not Iran

Technically Iraq and Syria isn't at war and they wont risk one over some aircraft flying over. Not that they like it but shooting down Israel jets are no small matter and would cause a new war that they can't afford
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It is more likely those jets weren’t detected simply because they never approached Iranian airspace where the (Russian-made) Iranian radars may (or may not) have been able to spot them.

To prove the point Simbo is trying to make, we’d need Israeli jets to fly into Iranian Airspace and get out of it unharmed ( maybe to Azerbaïdjan). The distance from Israel to Iran make it much more complicated for them to return to Israel than it would be for Ukraine to use F-16 inside Russia and to return home..
 
Raoul said:
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This makes no sense.

Israel already struck directly at Iran, by bombing their consulate in Syria and by blowing up Haniyeh in Tehran.

The USA will also know exactly what the defences of Iran are and will know that they can strike at Iran, almost certainly without their planes being shot down. They didn’t need this attack to know that. Nobody thinks the Iranians have developed their own super advanced anti air systems.

The relative unknown is what effect this would have on an Iranian response across the region as a whole.
 
africanspur said:
This makes no sense.

Israel already struck directly at Iran, by bombing their consulate in Syria and by blowing up Haniyeh in Tehran.

The USA will also know exactly what the defences of Iran are and will know that they can strike at Iran, almost certainly without their planes being shot down. They didn’t need this attack to know that. Nobody thinks the Iranians have developed their own super advanced anti air systems.

The relative unknown is what effect this would have on an Iranian response across the region as a whole.
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Believe he’s talking about actual direct air strikes on Iranian military targets with F-35s, not Mossad operations taking out a specific person.
 
Raoul said:
Believe he’s talking about actual direct air strikes on Iranian military targets with F-35s, not Mossad operations taking out a specific person.
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That’s fine but it still makes little sense to me.

Most countries would consider an air strike against their consulate in a sovereign country an act of war.

Most would consider an assassination in their capital a significant provocation.

I cannot believe that anyone who has even a modicum of knowledge about the area would be surprised that Syria and Iraq don’t have the capability to strike down Israeli or advanced Western jets? Or that Iran almost certainly likewise won’t be able to do so either?

That everyone knows the Americans could strike at will inside Iran? And that the negative pushback the Americans could expect would be asymmetrical warfare against their interests in the region, as opposed to an Iran scattered with American jets and ICBMs headed to Washington.

I feel like both tweets are essentially saying American weapons and tactics are more advanced than Iranian and Russian. Which….i feel like I’ve known for decades.
 
africanspur said:
That’s fine but it still makes little sense to me.

Most countries would consider an air strike against their consulate in a sovereign country an act of war.

Most would consider an assassination in their capital a significant provocation.

I cannot believe that anyone who has even a modicum of knowledge about the area would be surprised that Syria and Iraq don’t have the capability to strike down Israeli or advanced Western jets? Or that Iran almost certainly likewise won’t be able to do so either?

That everyone knows the Americans could strike at will inside Iran? And that the negative pushback the Americans could expect would be asymmetrical warfare against their interests in the region, as opposed to an Iran scattered with American jets and ICBMs headed to Washington.

I feel like both tweets are essentially saying American weapons and tactics are more advanced than Iranian and Russian. Which….i feel like I’ve known for decades.
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I agree that most countries would view an attack on their consulates in foreign countries as an act of war. But all things said, Israel and Iran have been at war for a long time. Not a hot war involving traditional tanks, infantry, planes etc., but certainly a covert war involving targeted assassinations, arming proxies like Hezbollah/Hamas, Israeli attacks on the Iranian nuclear problem through STUXNET and more. This is a rare exception where the war has spilled over to Iran launching ballistic missles directly at Israel, and Israeli jets bombing military sites inside Iran, which is what the tweet was getting at. There is a belief that Israel and possibly the US may come into further military conflict with Iran, and direct airstrikes into Iran are being used to learn how Iranian air defenses may (or in this case may not) react to F-35s operating inside their airspace.
 
Raoul said:
I agree that most countries would view an attack on their consulates in foreign countries as an act of war. But all things said, Israel and Iran have been at war for a long time. Not a hot war involving traditional tanks, infantry, planes etc., but certainly a covert war involving targeted assassinations, arming proxies like Hezbollah/Hamas, Israeli attacks on the Iranian nuclear problem through STUXNET and more. This is a rare exception where the war has spilled over to Iran launching ballistic missles directly at Israel, and Israeli jets bombing military sites inside Iran, which is what the tweet was getting at. There is a belief that Israel and possibly the US may come into further military conflict with Iran, and direct airstrikes into Iran are being used to learn how Iranian air defenses may (or in this case may not) react to F-35s operating inside their airspace.
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I already know how they’re going to react. They’re not going to be able to shoot down F-35s. Or B2s or whatever the Americans may end up using to bomb Iran.

Im sure the Americans also know this.

As far as I can remember, the last American plane hit by an enemy in the air was in 2003? I don’t remember the last one properly shot down and lost.
 


If this is true, the reputation of the IDF is not doing very well, Israel should avenge its brave genocidal soldiers by burning down three hospitals at least.
 
Pintu said:


If this is true, the reputation of the IDF is not doing very well, Israel should avenge its brave genocidal soldiers by burning down three hospitals at least.
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every single time there's been hezbollah success (the recent ones i can think of are blowing up a bunch of tanks in one day, and the drone that hit the army base), there's been some escalation against the people of gaza later the same day.
 
Pintu said:


If this is true, the reputation of the IDF is not doing very well, Israel should avenge its brave genocidal soldiers by burning down three hospitals at least.
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It's an army mostly consisting of ideologically indoctrinated conscripts, most of them racists, used to kill and torture defenseless women, ederly and children whom they see as a subhuman. There's no doubt that the IDF's the absolute best in this category.

The IDF has highly trained elite units and their Air Force isn't something to sniff at, but most of its ground forces is rabble which wouldn't be able to hold its ground against any well trained and equipped army.

They generally stay in their APU and armored transport vehicles in any urban fight and would only pop out when the neighborhood they're in has been completely burned to the ground. They just abuse their diplomatic impunity and overwhelming technological advance, a bit like a videogamer steamrolling the game by choosing the easiest difficulty level. That's how they "win".

That's why their 2006 Lebanon Invasion came as a shock when the IDF encountered a much more resolute and better trained opponent, and why its losses were relatively high when you consider Israel's utter military superiority in terms of equipment. And why their current "limited ground operations" in Lebanon aren't going as planned.

So what they do? They take it out on civilians by bombing the daylight out of them. That's who the most moral war criminals are.
 
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That_Bloke said:
It's an army mostly consisting of ideologically indoctrinated conscripts, most of them racists, used to kill and torture defenseless women, ederly and children whom they see as a subhuman. There's no doubt that the IDF's the absolute best in this category.

The IDF has highly trained elite units and their Air Force isn't something to sniff at, but most of its ground forces is rabble which wouldn't be able to hold its ground against any well trained and equipped army.

They generally stay in their APU and armored transport vehicles in any urban fight and would only pop out when the neighborhood they're in has been completely burned to the ground. They just abuse their diplomatic impunity and overwhelming technological advance, a bit like a videogamer steamrolling the game by choosing the easiest difficulty level. That's how they "win".

That's why their 2006 Lebanon Invasion came as a shock when the IDF encountered a much resolute and first and foremost better trained opponent, and why its losses were relatively high when you consider Israel's utter military superiority in terms of equipment. And why their current "limited ground operations" in Lebanon aren't going as planned.

So what they do? They take it out on civilians by bombing the daylight out of them. That's who the most moral war criminals are.
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Do you have sources for this?

Staying in a APC/MRAP in a defined urban battlefield is against almost all established doctrine (unless the battlefield is not defined yet, see: Thunder Runs) and immensely stupid.

I doubt that the conscript rabble is this incompetent.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Do you have sources for this?

Staying in a APC/MRAP in a defined urban battlefield is against almost all established doctrine (unless the battlefield is not defined yet, see: Thunder Runs) and immensely stupid.

I doubt that the conscript rabble is this incompetent.
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It would be in any normal circumstances. But the thing is that the IDF razes an entire neighborhood when fired upon by one guy.

I've said many times that Israel's highly allergic to human losses (on their side, not the brown rats) and despite Israel's info black-out there's enough footage on the net to see their tanks and armored vehicules wandering alone in urban areas without any ground troops to support them whatsoever. Even if they're ambushed, and it happened quite often, the equipment used by Hamas isn't enough to inflict significant damage. And if it by chance does, they just call on either artillery or airstrikes to nuke the area without any regard for anyone or anything living there.

There is no Thunder Runs to speak of. The enemy is a guerilla type without any heavy weapons, artillery or armored units. It's organized in lightly armed cells designed to work independently from each other.

It's a whack-a-mole without any end in sight. Israel's strategy is akin to give an elephant on crack a free pass to roam through a porcelain shop. It only tactically "succeeds" because of the absolute diplomatic immunity granted by the US and its militar support. And it strategically fails because it ignores the root cause of the problem and believes only in the use of force. And if that fails then use even more force.

What you surely know is that their RoE are not what you're familiar with. They do not seek a military victory, but the annihilation of a technologically vastly inferior entity/people they always considered less than human, a thorn in their side and whose territory they consider their own. It's the 21st century version of the colonial wars of extermination the Spanish, the Portuguese waged for centuries in South America. Or the European immigrants in North America or Australia.

Here's a link to Israel's reluctance for ground operations and its over-reliance on airstrikes and assassinations. The link is one year old but you still see the same mistakes being made over and over again. It still works in Gaza or the West Bank because Israel has absolute control over the territories but becomes a whole other matter when it comes to Lebanon where Hezbollah has a much wider room to maneuver and access to a much more lethal weaponry.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...or-decades-is-it-still-looking-for-a-way-out/
 
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AfonsoAlves said:
Do you have sources for this?

Staying in a APC/MRAP in a defined urban battlefield is against almost all established doctrine (unless the battlefield is not defined yet, see: Thunder Runs) and immensely stupid.

I doubt that the conscript rabble is this incompetent.
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there are literally hundreds of videos of hamas attacking tanks with RPGs or bombs (with uncertain results). in almost all of them, i've never seen any soldier outside the tank. there are lots of idf photos/videos of themselves, and some hamas snipers against idf soldiers (rather than tanks), from whatever i've seen, the foot soldiers aren't usually near any of the tanks.

there was a recent idf video of a hezbollah guy firing an RPG at a tank, and then getting taken out by a drone shooting him down. again, no idf soldier on the ground.
 
berbatrick said:
there are literally hundreds of videos of hamas attacking tanks with RPGs or bombs (with uncertain results). in almost all of them, i've never seen any soldier outside the tank. there are lots of idf photos/videos of themselves, and some hamas snipers against idf soldiers (rather than tanks), from whatever i've seen, the foot soldiers aren't usually near any of the tanks.

there was a recent idf video of a hezbollah guy firing an RPG at a tank, and then getting taken out by a drone shooting him down. again, no idf soldier on the ground.
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…..

“Do you have evidence that Frenchmen like to eat fruit?”

“Look! All these Frenchmen around us eating croissants!”
 


Talks about a 30 day pause to allow for diplomacy. Basically same deal that was in place back in September and that Netanyahu accepted before backtracking once an opportunity to kill Nasrallah (by burning an entire neighbourhood, killing hundreds of civilians in the process) presented itself.
 
Giggsyking said:
What? How is this even logical?

@AfonsoAlves can you explain?
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I am not sure I understand what this tweet is trying to say. Radars are essential to guide the defensive missiles, the ones protecting Iran… I don’t think there is a need for those radars when launching offensive ballistic SSM/GGM from Iran.
 
Idxomer said:
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It's funny that it was widely condemned and publicized when the Taliban blew up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan, and when ISIS destroyed some World Heritage sites, but we won't hear a peep when Israel will do the same. No articles describing how backward and barbaric the Israeli's are.
 
Pintu said:
I am not sure I understand what this tweet is trying to say. Radars are essential to guide the defensive missiles, the ones protecting Iran… I don’t think there is a need for those radars when launching offensive ballistic SSM/GGM from Iran.
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Yes, my thoughts too.
 
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