Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

11101 said:
Do you feel there's a point where Palestinian citizens need to carry some responsibility for Hamas's actions? Of course not, and the same applies to Israeli citizens.

It's two equally guilty and evil regimes scrapping each other and everybody underneath them is getting squashed.
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That’s absolute bull and you know it. Let’s say some polish citizen or a group performs a terrorist act in Germany is that an excuse to occupy Poland and start bombing civilian neighbourhoods ?

Just in the last month alone IDF are worse than Russia in any sense and form and they are performing terrorist acts on another three internationally recognised states.

What they are doing in Lebanon is absolute terrorism under false pretences and if we go with the eye for an eye rhetoric does that mean Lebanon is within its rights to go and occupy Israel ?

The truths is EU and US are considering Iranian, Palestinian, Lebanese people like some sort of low lives and not worth remotely the same as a white European. So they are expandable.

Let’s also not pretend a huge amount of Israeli people are enjoying the genocide in the process, otherwise they won’t be interested in the boat tours whilst they are bombed into oblivion.
 
Enigma_87 said:
What do you mean no? Israel is a very advanced state and people have high standard. If you prohibit trade opportunities, the ability to fly to Europe, freeze their assets in Europe and ban SWIFT/Visa you can imagine the uproar inside the country.

This is not Russia where people are used to totalitarian regime.
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If you say that sanctions would work better in Israel than in Russia then we are in agreement. The other poster came with simplistic list of sanctions that apparently “in theory” work in Russia, to which I replied “no”.

The disagreement is in assessment whether there is double standard.
 
B20 said:
The mortality rate has most likely exceeded 250.000 by now. 5% of the population of Palestine, 10% of the Gaza population.

I am really starting to think that genocidal states should be stripped of their right to self governance. If a democracy can produce this, then the legitimacy of that democracy is voided.
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I think these numbers are not true. Most estimates are at around 50k, roughly 1% of Palestine population. Which is still extremely tragic.

NB: You might be referring to the Lancet paper which effectively multiplied the number of deaths by 5. Which was pretty bad scholarship.
 
africanspur said:
This is an absolutely classic you response.

The original poster didn't even say that the sanctions have been super effective. Just that they wished for the sanctions imposed on Russia to be similarly imposed on Israel.

One country has those sanctions. The other has unlimited American money and weapons coming in instead.

You then obfuscate and look for a racial divide that isn't there.
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Thats why I replied to you because you came up with the list like from elementary school.

What racial divide are you talking about? You genuinly worry me.
 
Revan said:
I think these numbers are not true. Most estimates are at around 50k, roughly 1% of Palestine population. Which is still extremely tragic.

NB: You might be referring to the Lancet paper which effectively multiplied the number of deaths by 5. Which was pretty bad scholarship.
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50k is by every mean an underestimation. People missing or under the rubble are not counted. But even the 50k is 2.5% of the Gazan population. That is equivalent to 1.6 m killed in the UK.
 
Giggsyking said:
50k is by every mean an underestimation. People missing or under the rubble are not counted. But even the 50k is 2.5% of the Gazan population. That is equivalent to 1.6 m killed in the UK.
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Yes, there are likely lots of excess deaths, including non combat ones. But probably/hopefully nowhere close to the number Redsky mentioned.
 
Giggsyking said:
50k is by every mean an underestimation. People missing or under the rubble are not counted. But even the 50k is 2.5% of the Gazan population. That is equivalent to 1.6 m killed in the UK.
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But what about the terrorists huh? HUH? If you take away the terrorists it’s only 30k dead and that makes the IDF the most moral and precise army in the world (TM)
 
I’d like to point out that Israel has killed more civilians in one year than the entire western coalition has killed in 23 years in the Middle East, which includes dozens of urban sieges and brutal bombings and air strikes.

To highlight the extravagance of this further, the western coalition faced heavy criticism, especially in the first half decade of operations in GWOT for their lack of precision. Israel has outdone that by orders of magnitude in one year.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I’d like to point out that Israel has killed more civilians in one year than the entire western coalition has killed in 23 years in the Middle East, which includes dozens of urban sieges and brutal bombings and air strikes.

To highlight the extravagance of this further, the western coalition faced heavy criticism, especially in the first half decade of operations in GWOT for their lack of precision. Israel has outdone that by orders of magnitude in one year.
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Brett McGurk:
Brett McGurk would push back against the complaints, invoking his stint overseeing the siege of Mosul during the Obama administration, as the U.S. attempted to drive ISIS from northern Iraq:

"We flattened the city. There’s nothing left. What standard are you holding these Israelis to?"
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https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...ar-biden-netanyahu-peace-negotiations/679581/
 
Revan said:
I think these numbers are not true. Most estimates are at around 50k, roughly 1% of Palestine population. Which is still extremely tragic.

NB: You might be referring to the Lancet paper which effectively multiplied the number of deaths by 5. Which was pretty bad scholarship.
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The Lancet is a very reputable medical outlet and if it was bad scholarship, I'd love to hear why. The death count has stagnated for months because the Gazan administration and health system have completely collapsed and Israel gradually took control of almost all of the strip.

I'm certain that the deaths will be counted in hundreds of thousands once the dust settles and the humanitarian organizations will have full access to Gaza, which I highly doubt. Certainly not in the North.

The Lancet report also doesn't take into account the ones who are still dying and who will die given the catastrophic humanitarian situation and the absolutely relentless bombing that continues to this day. You also have the permanently handicapped and mutilated.

Then there's an entire generation of children and teenagers traumatized for life, having their physical and intellectual development impeded in a major way by the lack of food and proper medical treatment, the complete and systematic destruction of not only their houses and families, but also every hospital (including the medical personal), school and university. It will take decades just to clear the dozens of millions of tons of rubble and dozen of thousands of unexploded ordnance in Gaza.

And we're not touching the pogroms and the major land thefts in the West Bank carried out by Israel since 10/7.

Anyone still trying to downplay the civilian losses, the voluntary destruction of the Palestinians as a people by Israel and its malevolent, genocidal intent under the pretense of eliminating of Hamas, is either badly misinformed or an absolute scumbag.

Israel will also do more or less the same in Southern Lebanon. We're already witnessing it. The Israelis are dead set on colonizing that part of the region as well.
 
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Killing natives and land theft are the two main foundations of that state.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
But what about the terrorists huh? HUH? If you take away the terrorists it’s only 30k dead and that makes the IDF the most moral and precise army in the world (TM)
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When I watch the Israeli officials talk about the death ratio it sickens me, they talk about it being proud of a death fecking ratio. They always bring in Mosul which is a very stupid comparison for 10s of reasons, but even if we take their claim the estimation was about 9-10k killed in Mosul in a two years war compared to >50k in Gaza in less than 1 year. The scale of destruction in Gaza exceeds by every mean anything happened in Mosul including the old town of Mosul.
 
crappycraperson said:
Am I wrong to think Trump will win if US gets involved in any kind of war with Iran? Bibi trying to get Trump elected?
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It’s more so a case of Netanyahu exploiting the fact that the election is exactly a month off, and knowing neither candidate is going to do or say anything to push back against his military plans (nor will Biden who by now is a lame duck). Bibi knows this is his one and only chance to go after Iran and its proxies with out any political pressure from the US. He does of course hope Trump wins since it would guarantee an extension of hostilities well into next year, which will keep him and his coalition in power indefinitely.
 
crappycraperson said:
Am I wrong to think Trump will win if US gets involved in any kind of war with Iran? Bibi trying to get Trump elected?
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The consensus seems to be that unless Biden can force a ceasefire, Trump will win (or be *more likely* to win, more accurately). I’m not sure I buy that. History suggests that a country at war is more likely to act cautiously, and keep the incumbent in power. Trump is not entirely seen as a rational actor; I’d guess that, even amongst those who naturally lean Republican, there will be a proportion who accept that he may be something of a loose cannon. And multiple interconnected wars are not the time to try your luck.

What I can’t make a guess on, is how much of that need for continuity in a crisis, will be negated by the fact that it is Harris not Biden running for President.
 
Raoul said:
It’s more so a case of Netanyahu exploiting the fact that the election is exactly a month off, and knowing neither candidate is going to do or say anything to push back against his military plans (nor will Biden who by now is a lame duck). Bibi knows this is his one and only chance to go after Iran and its proxies with out any political pressure from the US. He does of course hope Trump wins since it would guarantee an extension of hostilities well into next year, which will keep him and his coalition in power indefinitely.
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What do you think China wants in that case? Putin clearly wants Trump to win, but Xi? Trump has constantly take aim at China; I can’t believe they would want him back.
 
Giggsy PO said:
Thats why I replied to you because you came up with the list like from elementary school.

What racial divide are you talking about? You genuinly worry me.
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You asked what kinds of sanctions are directed towards Russian civilians (as opposed to, I guess, military or political leaders). I gave some. At no point did either I or the other poster suggest they were the most amazing or comprehensive sanctions.

You asked if they should also extend to Arab Israelis, no doubt assuming that people would say no.

What are you worried about?
 
NicolaSacco said:
What do you think China wants in that case? Putin clearly wants Trump to win, but Xi? Trump has constantly take aim at China; I can’t believe they would want him back.
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I would guess Putin desperately wants Trump back so he can carpet bomb Ukraine into submission, which Trump would spin as a win and a “deal”. Xi wants nothing to do with Trump. Probably a discussion for the election thread
 
Netanyahu against Macron as a response to Macron's call for an arms embargo.

 
That_Bloke said:
Odds on Israel (massively) striking Iran on 10/7?
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You would think the Israelis are factoring in that the Iranians would be expecting it then, and as such, the attack could take place before or after. They could of course still do it on 10/7 irrespective of Iranian's expecting it.
 
VorZakone said:
Netanyahu against Macron as a response to Macron's call for an arms embargo.

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"all civilised countries should stand with israel... yet macron and other western leaders..."

cb54-002_1899_July10_B21725.jpg
 
How is it that there’s nothing stopping Israel from bombing the $hit out of anyone they please?

Actions have no consequences in case of Israel.
 
iKnowNothing said:
How is it that there’s nothing stopping Israel from bombing the $hit out of anyone they please?

Actions have no consequences in case of Israel.
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You can ask the same question for a lot of nation states and their actions pertaining to, "Why is nobody stopping them."

The answer most of the time lies between, "It's not in their interest to stop them" or, "They don't have the power to stop them."
 
NicolaSacco said:
The consensus seems to be that unless Biden can force a ceasefire, Trump will win (or be *more likely* to win, more accurately). I’m not sure I buy that. History suggests that a country at war is more likely to act cautiously, and keep the incumbent in power. Trump is not entirely seen as a rational actor; I’d guess that, even amongst those who naturally lean Republican, there will be a proportion who accept that he may be something of a loose cannon. And multiple interconnected wars are not the time to try your luck.

What I can’t make a guess on, is how much of that need for continuity in a crisis, will be negated by the fact that it is Harris not Biden running for President.
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That was maybe true 2 decades ago when vast majority of Republican base & some portion of Dem didn't have war fatigue. Post Iraq & Afghanistan, even Republican base, sans elites, seems against directly getting involved in a war. Dems r definitely opposed to it.
 
Invading Gaza (previously a concentration camp); invading Lebanon; bombing Yemen and Syria after two of the bloodiest civil wars of the century; and killing some other Arabs in more general locations.

He is an absolute cnut (Bibi). The man spouts fiction.

5% or greater of the two million people in Gaza murdered (or severely injured) as it goes. Also have bombed literally every hospital, most mosques and also many schools. Targeting civilian infrastructure and now repeating the murderous insanity in Lebanon where over a million people have been displaced. Tis a genocide. The legalese scholars, though not all of them, hide behind is a farce. They'll all conclude with the term "genocide" when it is politically more convenient to do so (subconsciously or consciously) within the next few years.
 
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Revan said:
I think these numbers are not true. Most estimates are at around 50k, roughly 1% of Palestine population. Which is still extremely tragic.

NB: You might be referring to the Lancet paper which effectively multiplied the number of deaths by 5. Which was pretty bad scholarship.
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Those numbers are the kill rate. The mortality rate is what we should be looking at since it also accounts for people dying of illness, starvation, etc. Israel are killing the population on multiple fronts.
 
crappycraperson said:
That was maybe true 2 decades ago when vast majority of Republican base & some portion of Dem didn't have war fatigue. Post Iraq & Afghanistan, even Republican base, sans elites, seems against directly getting involved in a war. Dems r definitely opposed to it.
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That’s a fair point.
 
Israel has cost the US global prestige and influence, specially looking at Netanyahu ignoring Biden's call time after timme after time.
 


Yes, she is talking about the soldiers killed in the special op in southern Lebanon.
 
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