Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

[4bars]

Then I guess at some point (and honestly I think we're already there) ordinary israeli citizens need to start sharing the blame for the genocide. They can't keep hiding behind the "only those in power are evil".

I dont think most of the ordinary israeli are hiding at all but voice it out. Or at least my impression

 

[Tibs]

If oil prices went through the roof, say $150 a barrel or more...do you think Western governments would tell the ZioNazis to stop, or could they still carry on their non-stop war crimes?

 

[Member 21058]

I'm not going to write a plan for toppling the government on redcafe. But millions and millions on the street everyday demanding the end of the genocide would surely do the trick.

So you're calling for civil war while they're being attacked on 3 fronts?

 

[maniak]

So you're calling for civil war while they're being attacked on 3 fronts?

Whatever attacks they're suffering are nothing compared to the harm they're causing. Yes, the people should do whatever they can to stop the genocide being committed in their name.

 

[Jev]

I'm not going to write a plan for toppling the government on redcafe. But millions and millions on the street everyday demanding the end of the genocide would surely do the trick.

Are you genuinely saying that regular Israelis are accountable for an ongoing genocide because they are not overthrowing their government?

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

What did you do in Lebanon? You annihilated what you annihilated. It was great! It had to be done! If attacks were launched from Canada into the United States, everyone here would have said, ‘Attack all the cities of Canada, and we don’t care if all the civilians get killed.’ - Joe Biden (allegedly)

So just following precedent really.

 

[Kaos]

So you're calling for civil war while they're being attacked on 3 fronts?

"Being attacked on 3 fronts" - this is the same boring 'existential threat' nonsense thats being perpetuated. Israel isn't some poor little nation under siege from the hordes at its gates, its an colonial, nuclear armed war machine that's been oppressing, occupying and murdering people for decades to the point they've essentially created militias that wish to do them harm on account of their actions. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis don't possess an existential threat to Israel, not even Iran does.

Israel can end all this tomorrow if they cease being a colonial aggressor, end the occupation and finally declare their feckin borders under UN resolutions.

And yes, their people absolutely need to decide whether they want to maintain this completely unsustainable status quo of being a pariah state relying on being bailed out by the US, or whether they want to actually be a serious partner of peace and stability in the region by dropping the dogmatic, fascist, expansionist nonsense of them being the rightful occupants of the entire territory.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Are you genuinely saying that regular Israelis are accountable for an ongoing genocide because they are not overthrowing their government?

Israelis are 'accountable' in the sense that most actually support this and have not simply been Hijacked By The Bad Man.

Does that mean individual citizens should be held responsible as genocidaires and put in prison? No.

 

[Amir]

Then I guess at some point (and honestly I think we're already there) ordinary israeli citizens need to start sharing the blame for the genocide. They can't keep hiding behind the "only those in power are evil".

Again, what do you expect them to do?

What do you expect ME to do?

 

[Kaos]

Again, what do you expect them to do?

What do you expect ME to do?

I'd expect benevolent people like you not to be labelled traitorous lepers by your society for speaking out. Its an unfortunate state of affairs thats what its now come to.

 

[Withnail]

So you're calling for civil war while they're being attacked on 3 fronts?

That's an interesting way of seeing it.

 

[Amir]

I'd expect benevolent people like you not to be labelled traitorous lepers by your society for speaking out. Its an unfortunate state of affairs thats what its now come to.

Israeli society has been torn apart, and partly twisted, in recent years. It's an absolute mess, caused by Netanyahu's successful attempt to devide the society into us (Netanyahu supporters) against them (Anyone who doesn't support him). It wasn't even about the Palestenian issue, though obviously it's a part of it now. And it's all one big, political and spin-driven, mess.

 

[Giggsyking]

 

[maniak]

Are you genuinely saying that regular Israelis are accountable for an ongoing genocide because they are not overthrowing their government?

No.

 

[maniak]

Again, what do you expect them to do?

What do you expect ME to do?

This interaction started because you said only the leadership is evil.

I don't think that's true, I think a very large percentage of israelis are evil. Polls show really horrific numbers when it comes to israelis acceptance of the genocide.

I don't expect you to do anything apart from recognizing the uncomfortable truth that the leadership isn't the only problem in israel. Your society is accepting a genocide so these bad apple replies are just delusion.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

This interaction started because you said only the leadership is evil.

I don't think that's true, I think a very large percentage of israelis are evil. Polls show really horrific numbers when it comes to israelis acceptance of the genocide.

I don't expect you to do anything apart from recognizing the uncomfortable truth that the leadership isn't the only problem in israel. Your society is accepting a genocide so these bad apple replies are just delusion.

I think you grossly underestimate the impact of cognitive dissonance.

 

[WPMUFC]

Trump Says Israel Should Bomb Iran’s Nuclear Facilities and ‘Worry About the Rest Later’

https://www.mediaite.com/trump/trum...ar-facilities-and-worry-about-the-rest-later/

 

[Enigma_87]

Again, what do you expect them to do?

What do you expect ME to do?

Personally I'd like to see sanctions towards all Israeli citizens just like the same were imposed towards Russian ones. Of course we won't see that as the double standard is pretty clear and the leading nations have zero sympathy towards people in middle east.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Personally I'd like to see sanctions towards all Israeli citizens just like the same were imposed towards Russian ones. Of course we won't see that as the double standard is pretty clear and the leading nations have zero sympathy towards people in middle east.

What sanctions are imposed on all Russians?

Would you also sanction Arab Israelis?

 

[africanspur]

Israeli strikes force hospitals in southern Lebanon to close​

At least four hospitals closed yesterday in southern Lebanon because of Israeli airstrikes, officials at the hospitals say, severely limiting health cover for the remaining population there.

At the Marjayoun government hospital, a core team of 20 doctors and nurses had held on for days after the rest of its 120 staff stopped coming to work because of the strikes, officials said, but the hospital eventually closed on Friday following a direct hit.

Hospital director Dr Mounes Kalakish told the BBC he had no choice but to suspend services after the strike hit two ambulances at the hospital’s entrance, killing seven paramedics.

“We held on for as long as we could,” he said. “But the nurses and doctors were terrified after the strike. We tried to calm them and carry on but it was not possible.”

The hospital’s emergency director, Dr Shoshana Mazraani, said she heard the cries of the paramedics who were hit. She ran towards the damaged ambulances, but was warned to stay back by colleagues who feared a follow-up strike.

The closure of the hospital on Friday was a “tragedy for the region”, Dr Mazraani said.

“We serve a huge population here, many villages. We had 45 inpatient beds, all now empty. We were the only hospital providing dialysis in the region. We have had to turn away emergency patients and tell others to leave.”

At least 37 healthcare facilities have closed over the past two weeks, since Israel began its air bombardment of Lebanon, according to the World Health Organization.

In a statement on Friday night, the Israeli army accused Hezbollah of using medical vehicles to transport fighters and weapons.

In a separate statement, it said it had “made many efforts to prevent damage to non-involved people and civilian infrastructure, and this is in contrast to the systematic use by the terrorist organisation Hezbollah”.


Remember when we spent days and pages arguing back and forth about whether or not Israel would ever dare attack a hospital or medical facilities directly. Good times.

@Simbo, perhaps another pithy joke about what any of the religious paramedics or the dialysis patients were thinking when their ambulance was destroyed or they were turned away for life saving care would be appropriate?

 

[Enigma_87]

What sanctions are imposed on all Russians?

Would you also sanction Arab Israelis?

The list is very long, but some of the few:

• banned exports of technology Russia might use for making weapons
• banned imports of gold and diamonds from Russia
• banned flights from Russia
• sanctioned oligarchs - the wealthy business people linked with the Kremlin - and impounded their yachts

Banning export and import or applying taxes would seriously hit the Israel economy, alongside prohibiting inbound flights from Israel.

If you want change you also have to impose sanctions to the citizens, otherwise the killing spree will continue.

Of course EU doesn't have the balls to do so and USA are the accomplice in it.

As for the second part - everyone that has Israel citizenship and can affect voting would be enough.

 

[africanspur]

What sanctions are imposed on all Russians?

Would you also sanction Arab Israelis?

Scientific Co operation (Horizon)
Sporting sanctions
Cultural sanctions
Economic sanctions which by their very nature affect (in theory) all Russians.

Yes.

 

[B20]

The mortality rate has most likely exceeded 250.000 by now. 5% of the population of Palestine, 10% of the Gaza population.

I am really starting to think that genocidal states should be stripped of their right to self governance. If a democracy can produce this, then the legitimacy of that democracy is voided.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Scientific Co operation (Horizon)
Sporting sanctions
Cultural sanctions
Economic sanctions which by their very nature affect (in theory) all Russians.

Yes.

So in practice, no.

 

[africanspur]

So in practice, no.

Which part is in practice no?

 

[Enigma_87]

So in practice, no.

What do you mean no? Israel is a very advanced state and people have high standard. If you prohibit trade opportunities, the ability to fly to Europe, freeze their assets in Europe and ban SWIFT/Visa you can imagine the uproar inside the country.

This is not Russia where people are used to totalitarian regime.

 

[VorZakone]

“Right now, there’s enough posture in the region that if the Iranians step in, we can and would support Israel’s defense,” said Dana Stroul, the Pentagon’s top official for Middle East policy until last year. Of Israel’s increasingly aggressive campaign against Hezbollah, she said, “If you’re Israel and you’re a military planner, you want to do all that while things are in the region, not after it leaves.”

 

[Giggsy PO]

Which part is in practice no?

What percentage of Russian population even heard of Horizon projects?

How is Danil Medvedev feeling the sanctions?
Do you think some Russian ice-hockey player is devastated that he cannot compete in WC while still receiving his paycheck from NHL?

Cultural sanctios…give me a break.

Russia has still a lot hydrocarbon money for social spending so economic sanctions are a very very long term tool for all Russians to feel it. That doesn’t mean the sanctions are useless. But from everyday point of view I would be more worried about how long is Russia capable to live on wartime economy. Hopefully not very long.

 

[Superden]

wonder if there is a tipping point, whereby other arab states and/or turkey get involved (that arent part of Iran's Axis) in a military way, obviously in a defensive manner directly or indirectly, perhaps armed escorts for humanitarian relief works in Lebanon, obviously they arent even going to consider attacking Israel directly, Lots of strong words from the Turks and Qataris and even from the Saudis, but no actual action other than humanitarian aid.

Clearly the gloves are off with the israeli actions in Lebanon, and the same rules of engagement that applied (didnt apply) in Gaza are being used.

The Israelis have realised after a year of bombing the crap out of Gaza, that even with all the 'rage in the streets and governments of Arab countries, nothing actually has changed. But then again this is why despots like Sisi and the western centric regimes in Jordan, Saudi and the Emirates have been facilitated. Lots of looking the other way at their own self interests.

Kind of answered my own question.

 

[Kaos]

wonder if there is a tipping point, whereby other arab states and/or turkey get involved (that arent part of Iran's Axis) in a military way, obviously in a defensive manner directly or indirectly, perhaps armed escorts for humanitarian relief works in Lebanon, obviously they arent even going to consider attacking Israel directly, Lots of strong words from the Turks and Qataris and even from the Saudis, but no actual action other than humanitarian aid.

Clearly the gloves are off with the israeli actions in Lebanon, and the same rules of engagement that applied (didnt apply) in Gaza are being used.

The Israelis have realised after a year of bombing the crap out of Gaza, that even with all the 'rage in the streets and governments of Arab countries, nothing actually has changed. But then again this is why despots like Sisi and the western centric regimes in Jordan, Saudi and the Emirates have been facilitated. Lots of looking the other way at their own self interests.

Kind of answered my own question.

Yep. I suppose the big blowback from all this is they've scuppered any hope of normalisation with countries like Saudi for the foreseeable. Countries like Jordan and Egypt have essentially puppet governments in place that would sooner defend Israel (as was the case with Jordan) than attempt to challenge them harshly.

 

[VorZakone]

Bruh.

 

[Idxomer]

1974: Israel threatens daily airstrikes
For the third day in a row, the enemies' airplanes bomb the South and Beqaa.
Israel's message to the Security Council admits to attacking Lebanese civilians.

50 years later and nothing has changed.

 

[Idxomer]

Seems like they will attack Iran soon, likely on Monday.

 

[Idxomer]

"The Israeli military is preparing for large-scale assaults on multiple fronts, according to its public broadcaster Kan and other Israeli media.

The army is aiming for a “significant and difficult” attack on Iran in response to its launch of ballistic missiles on Israel, which had come in retaliation for the assassination of top Iranian, Lebanese and Palestinian officials.

Israeli authorities are said to expect their Western allies, who also oppose Iranian influence, to participate in the attack. This comes as General Michael Kurilla, the head of the US military in the region, is expected to arrive in Israel today to discuss the operation.

In Gaza, the Israeli military is planning for “intense manoeuvres”, especially around the Netzarim Corridor, as the war approaches the one-year mark".

From Aljazeera.

 

[Sweet Square]

"The Israeli military is preparing for large-scale assaults on multiple fronts, according to its public broadcaster Kan and other Israeli media.

The army is aiming for a “significant and difficult” attack on Iran in response to its launch of ballistic missiles on Israel, which had come in retaliation for the assassination of top Iranian, Lebanese and Palestinian officials.

Israeli authorities are said to expect their Western allies, who also oppose Iranian influence, to participate in the attack. This comes as General Michael Kurilla, the head of the US military in the region, is expected to arrive in Israel today to discuss the operation.

In Gaza, the Israeli military is planning for “intense manoeuvres”, especially around the Netzarim Corridor, as the war approaches the one-year mark".

From Aljazeera.

 

[11101]

Don't you feel there's a point when israeli citizens need to carry some responsibility for the ongoing genocide?

Do you feel there's a point where Palestinian citizens need to carry some responsibility for Hamas's actions? Of course not, and the same applies to Israeli citizens.

It's two equally guilty and evil regimes scrapping each other and everybody underneath them is getting squashed.

 

[Kaos]

Do you feel there's a point where Palestinian citizens need to carry some responsibility for Hamas's actions? Of course not, and the same applies to Israeli citizens.

It's two equally guilty and evil regimes scrapping each other and everybody underneath them is getting squashed.

I mean there's a huge asymmetrical dynamic that exists between the two. One group of people enjoy a privileged democratic existence within an apartheid, the other are an occupied, subjugated and disenfranchised people who are genuinely facing an existential threat. Trying to portray some form of moral equivalence doesn't really work.

The Israelis as well as their allies have the power to change the dynamic of the issue for good. The Palestinians have been shut down at every given junction, even with peaceful initiatives. UN resolutions being vetoed by the US, peaceful marches being brutally shut down by the Israelis, thousands of them, including children being held hostages in prison, etc.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Do you feel there's a point where Palestinian citizens need to carry some responsibility for Hamas's actions? Of course not, and the same applies to Israeli citizens.

It's two equally guilty and evil regimes scrapping each other and everybody underneath them is getting squashed.

By what metric is the average Israeli "getting squashed by Netanyahu"?

Are all Israelis getting squashed? If Donald Trump were to win the U.S. presidential election in one month, would we say, in two years, that "everybody in America is getting squashed by this evil regime"?

 

[africanspur]

What percentage of Russian population even heard of Horizon projects?

How is Danil Medvedev feeling the sanctions?
Do you think some Russian ice-hockey player is devastated that he cannot compete in WC while still receiving his paycheck from NHL?

Cultural sanctios…give me a break.

Russia has still a lot hydrocarbon money for social spending so economic sanctions are a very very long term tool for all Russians to feel it. That doesn’t mean the sanctions are useless. But from everyday point of view I would be more worried about how long is Russia capable to live on wartime economy. Hopefully not very long.

This is an absolutely classic you response.

The original poster didn't even say that the sanctions have been super effective. Just that they wished for the sanctions imposed on Russia to be similarly imposed on Israel.

One country has those sanctions. The other has unlimited American money and weapons coming in instead.

You then obfuscate and look for a racial divide that isn't there.