Is the way teams play the most boring it’s been for a while?

Solius

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Some clarifications, I think some of the games in the Euros have been great (not many though) and that obviously there are teams who play great stuff and there are still really enjoyable games.

But on the whole, there seems to be a feeling developing that this almost Pep influenced style of football is making it extremely dull to watch. I’m already of the opinion that his way of playing is incredibly mind-numbing to watch and now every team and his dog are trying to copy that we’ve just got shitter versions everywhere. There’s hardly any risk involved, players stick to their positions, it’s rigid, safe, all randomness is coached out of the game.

The Georgia Turkey game this Euros really stuck with me because it felt like one of those proper old school games where two teams just went for it. Georgia knew a narrow defeat wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world and yet they kept attacking. Every pass was with a forward intention and not done for the sake of it. Compare that to almost every other big team at the tournament and it’s passes the way they’re facing, a player dropping deep to just bounce it back to the original passer, low driven balls into the box, cut-back, cut-back, cut-back. Every team feels like they do the same shit and it’s so boring.

This happens at club level too but it’s not so obvious because they have the time to work on the tactics and make them more effective, but they still all play the same way. Individuality feels like it’s the lowest it’s been for ages. Every player is just a part of a machine.

I’d love it if 4-4-2 and a bit more risk and flair came back into fashion. Seen it a couple of times this tournament and it’s refreshing. Say what you want about Utd too but you cannot deny our games were entertaining (even if not always for us).
 
Isn't this just the same as the Is the top flight international football dead thread from the Euro forum?
 
I agree. It's hard to name many truly great players in any position on the field. How many truly great strikers can you think of? Centre backs? Even managers? There seems so few in any category.
 
Solius said:
Some clarifications, I think some of the games in the Euros have been great (not many though) and that obviously there are teams who play great stuff and there are still really enjoyable games.

But on the whole, there seems to be a feeling developing that this almost Pep influenced style of football is making it extremely dull to watch. I’m already of the opinion that his way of playing is incredibly mind-numbing to watch and now every team and his dog are trying to copy that we’ve just got shitter versions everywhere. There’s hardly any risk involved, players stick to their positions, it’s rigid, safe, all randomness is coached out of the game.

The Georgia Turkey game this Euros really stuck with me because it felt like one of those proper old school games where two teams just went for it. Georgia knew a narrow defeat wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world and yet they kept attacking. Every pass was with a forward intention and not done for the sake of it. Compare that to almost every other big team at the tournament and it’s passes the way they’re facing, a player dropping deep to just bounce it back to the original passer, low driven balls into the box, cut-back, cut-back, cut-back. Every team feels like they do the same shit and it’s so boring.

This happens at club level too but it’s not so obvious because they have the time to work on the tactics and make them more effective, but they still all play the same way. Individuality feels like it’s the lowest it’s been for ages. Every player is just a part of a machine.

I’d love it if 4-4-2 and a bit more risk and flair came back into fashion. Seen it a couple of times this tournament and it’s refreshing. Say what you want about Utd too but you cannot deny our games were entertaining (even if not always for us).
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Yeah, agreed. The Euros have been really poor to watch (so far)
 
Balance is important, it's gone too far the other way with stuff like playing from the back. I'm not a big fan of the passing in your box from a goal kick rule change for example, I think it's quite an underestimated addition to football last few years. Takes away an element of random chance of longer goal kicks. There are lots of less random chance moments like long shots, mazy dribbles, longer balls.

The most important 'player' for most teams is the manager the past 10 years, the players are just like chess pieces. It has always been an important aspect of football, but I don't remember that being such a thing 20 years ago. So many system managers over Ancelotti-types that just let the players play. Again it's a question of balance, it's gone too far the other way. Too much coaching from a young age.
 
Also I watched a video of the new Brighton manager’s way of ‘baiting the press’ and it was just his St Pauli team passing it around the back for like a full 3 minutes before eventually playing it forward. Tiresome.
 
The new trend of the fullback on one side basically just being a wide centre-half (Walker, Kounde, Ake, that mug on the left for Belgium etc) needs to be shot into the sun. Everybody seems to be playing that or 5 at the back.

That and systematic tactical fouling have basically killed counter attacks stone dead, so we're just seeing the stronger team with three players stood on the halfway line knock it sideways in front of 11 guys who aren't going to commit to leaving enough up to pitch to even have a chance of a proper counter.
 
Solius said:
Also I watched a video of the new Brighton manager’s way of ‘baiting the press’ and it was just his St Pauli team passing it around the back for like a full 3 minutes before eventually playing it forward. Tiresome.
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Yeah hate those ones and how clubs seem to want to push it as the only way to play football. Football works in cycles too and when Pep's football came around it was exciting because it was different to what was seen before. But if everyone plays like Pep, then it's not interesting because it's just the standard and the norm. It's contrasts that make football interesting, not uniformity.

People often forget that 4-4-2 wasn't seen as Brexit football in the mid-90s, it was seen as progressive then by unleashing from the 5 at the back man marking systems for zonal marking. I remember Wenger had opposition to it when he brought it in. Then within 15 years it was seen as a backward formation. I believe in time the most popular way now will be seen as outdated eventually.
 
V.O. said:
The new trend of the fullback on one side basically just being a wide centre-half (Walker, Kounde, Ake, that mug on the left for Belgium etc) needs to be shot into the sun. Everybody seems to be playing that or 5 at the back.

That and systematic tactical fouling have basically killed counter attacks stone dead, so we're just seeing the stronger team with three players stood on the halfway line knock it sideways in front of 11 guys who aren't going to commit to leaving enough up to pitch to even have a chance of a proper counter.
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I've long said tactical fouling has done huge damage to the game and needed to be punished far more severely. Pep and Klopp figured it out early and realized that you can press absurdly high and get away with having Fabinho/Fernandinho just chop down someone in their own half if a team is about to break, and the player won't be booked until the 3rd time or so he's done it (which by that point is probably deep into the game while your team has dominated effortlessly). Couple that with VAR coming in and disallowing a shiteload of goals for offsides by the smallest of margins and it makes it incredibly hard for teams to deal with.

The game needs looser offsides margins and stricter penalties on tactical fouling, otherwise it'll just be all of these Pep carbon copy systems of everywhere as it's the only real way to play through it if you don't have Real Madrid level talent.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Yeah hate those ones and how clubs seem to want to push it as the only way to play football. Football works in cycles too and when Pep's football came around it was exciting because it was different to what was seen before. But if everyone plays like Pep, then it's not interesting because it's just the standard and the norm. It's contrasts that make football interesting, not uniformity.

People often forget that 4-4-2 wasn't seen as Brexit football in the mid-90s, it was seen as progressive then by unleashing from the 5 at the back man marking systems for zonal marking. I remember Wenger had opposition to it when he brought it in. Then within 15 years it was seen as a backward formation. I believe in time the most popular way now will be seen as outdated eventually.
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The difference is that early Pep systems were far more fluid and had the greatest player of all time in the forward line with the best midfield trio ever behind him. They could solve problems themselves already through pure magic, and then Pep added some systemality to it.

Pep tweaked his system several times though to the point of where it is now, because teams realized that early version of Barca and then even Bayern could be countered at will with the right tactics. So he then got far more pragmatic and sacrificed much of the "beauty" by targeting better athletic profiles everywhere and getting stricter with the positional spacing of his teams since he wasn't going to have the magicians that could do it by instinct. It's made his City teams far more difficult to beat but also often times crap to watch (especially without De Bruyne pulling the strings) because the game state just becomes : Press, recover ball, move it side to side before exploiting a half space, cross into penalty area, rinse+repeat. He'll play a backline of physical beasts and accept that he's giving up some creativity without a Dani Alves but ensures that a Walker/Stones/Dias/Ake back 4 is going to be incredibly difficult to counter on.

Other pundits/ex players have said it too, but I think it's why modern football has become less "exciting" and there are less "geniuses" than before. Players are now developed where athleticism+ a good base level of technicality is the main areas teams look to improve. If you're a midfielder that can run well and press for 90 mins, plenty of teams will want you even if you aren't actually good at any part of the game apart from maybe receiving passes under pressure. Strikers and forwards now have to be able to lead pressing structures as well, and those that can't often struggle to make the leap to the top clubs even if they have the finer points of their craft honed exceptionally well. So the games often just become carbon copies of each other, with rehearsed "patterns of play" that are drilled into sides without players having to think much on their own, and then managers just have to find profiles for each position.
 
All sports are going in this direction. The analytics nerds have figured out the optimal way to play, and it's predictably resulted in a lot of the variance and unpredictability going away.
 
Folks… you are all having a mare :rolleyes: at least a misconception, we can agree: sport is not entertainment yet… results still trump highlights and reels. Adding to that, it’s Summer and the real comp starts on Saturday.
 
It’s the super professionalism of football that’s sucked the joy out of it.

Money ball. What’s the statistically most efficient way of winning, don’t lose, don’t concede. Play not to concede and hope you score.

Southgate…we wanted to win that game! Not as much as you didn’t want to lose though.

That’s the problem.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
The difference is that early Pep systems were far more fluid and had the greatest player of all time in the forward line with the best midfield trio ever behind him. They could solve problems themselves already through pure magic, and then Pep added some systemality to it.

Pep tweaked his system several times though to the point of where it is now, because teams realized that early version of Barca and then even Bayern could be countered at will with the right tactics. So he then got far more pragmatic and sacrificed much of the "beauty" by targeting better athletic profiles everywhere and getting stricter with the positional spacing of his teams since he wasn't going to have the magicians that could do it by instinct. It's made his City teams far more difficult to beat but also often times crap to watch (especially without De Bruyne pulling the strings) because the game state just becomes : Press, recover ball, move it side to side before exploiting a half space, cross into penalty area, rinse+repeat. He'll play a backline of physical beasts and accept that he's giving up some creativity without a Dani Alves but ensures that a Walker/Stones/Dias/Ake back 4 is going to be incredibly difficult to counter on.

Other pundits/ex players have said it too, but I think it's why modern football has become less "exciting" and there are less "geniuses" than before. Players are now developed where athleticism+ a good base level of technicality is the main areas teams look to improve. If you're a midfielder that can run well and press for 90 mins, plenty of teams will want you even if you aren't actually good at any part of the game apart from maybe receiving passes under pressure. Strikers and forwards now have to be able to lead pressing structures as well, and those that can't often struggle to make the leap to the top clubs even if they have the finer points of their craft honed exceptionally well. So the games often just become carbon copies of each other, with rehearsed "patterns of play" that are drilled into sides without players having to think much on their own, and then managers just have to find profiles for each position.
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Yup all this really.

Pep Guardiola has no doubt been a hugely influential coach on the game but it’s getting to the stage where his influence imo is a negative. The more he chases success the less risks he takes and the more he turns away from the dynamic footballer into the robotic footballer. Or he’ll sign a dynamic footballer and turn them into the Brummie Park Ji Sung.

Pep is blessed with fantastic technical players so for city playing this way works a treat but when you try and do it with shite players what you get is Group C and Group E from this years European Championships. A fecking abomination.
 
Yes, statistic based coaching has killed the entertainment in a lot of ways. Combined with clubs focussing on athletic attributes over flair in youth teams.
 
Problem is if you're a young coach interviewing for a role and your answer to what style of football you play is "direct, 442, crosses, width" or "defensive, compact, counter-attacking" etc then you aren't getting the job. Whenever I hear a new manager talking about the way they want to play, I already know what's coming before they've even said a word.
 
Solius said:
Some clarifications, I think some of the games in the Euros have been great (not many though) and that obviously there are teams who play great stuff and there are still really enjoyable games.

But on the whole, there seems to be a feeling developing that this almost Pep influenced style of football is making it extremely dull to watch. I’m already of the opinion that his way of playing is incredibly mind-numbing to watch and now every team and his dog are trying to copy that we’ve just got shitter versions everywhere. There’s hardly any risk involved, players stick to their positions, it’s rigid, safe, all randomness is coached out of the game.

The Georgia Turkey game this Euros really stuck with me because it felt like one of those proper old school games where two teams just went for it. Georgia knew a narrow defeat wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world and yet they kept attacking. Every pass was with a forward intention and not done for the sake of it. Compare that to almost every other big team at the tournament and it’s passes the way they’re facing, a player dropping deep to just bounce it back to the original passer, low driven balls into the box, cut-back, cut-back, cut-back. Every team feels like they do the same shit and it’s so boring.

This happens at club level too but it’s not so obvious because they have the time to work on the tactics and make them more effective, but they still all play the same way. Individuality feels like it’s the lowest it’s been for ages. Every player is just a part of a machine.

I’d love it if 4-4-2 and a bit more risk and flair came back into fashion. Seen it a couple of times this tournament and it’s refreshing. Say what you want about Utd too but you cannot deny our games were entertaining (even if not always for us).
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Indeed, it's got to the point where I barely watch football anymore outside of United matches.

All the things that made it the beautiful game are slowly being eroded.
 
Football is incredibly trend biased, a team does something considered new and the next week a dozen teams are doing the same thing. You see it in stuff like the wall sweeper, how many times has the guy lying down behind the wall been useful? Now you might say that is the point, stopping players from going for the low option but there are so few high level free kick takers these days anyway.

But yes, styles are homogenized, all the top teams or countries are playing the same general way with the variation caused by quality of individual. How many bloody versions of the left footed right winger cutting in and passing back do you want to watch. We have a copy for everyone.

And its something that leaches the vitality and artistry of the game and might be unavoidable with how decoded sport has become.

Put some dribblers into the middle of the pitch and destroy the press.
 
Would anyone say Real Madrid have a defined style? Seems like they've played rather flexible football in the last decade being able to score in varied ways and allow their forwards a degree of individualism.
 
Yep, hate the Pepification of football. Wish he would get tired of football and his boring style went out of style.
 
VorZakone said:
Would anyone say Real Madrid have a defined style? Seems like they've played rather flexible football in the last decade being able to score in varied ways and allow their forwards a degree of individualism.
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No, which is why they are my favorite team to watch and have been for a decade. Madrid still abides by the thought process of letting their players adapt to the game state for whatever particular game they are in. They’ll change the formation based on personnel (this year a good example) but in general they aim to recruit players that have both a high level of ability but also the mental state to problem solve within the match.

It’s also why they dominate the UCL regularly while people ask “how do they do it?” every year. They have 0 issue sitting in a deep block and looking to kill games on the counter, and they can also control the game in possession against teams that want to park the bus against them. Its a welcome breath of fresh air that reminds me of the Fergie United teams in an era of endless “systems” that all basically aim to do the same thing.
 
Also the amount of games that are decided by a shite pen decision as well. Almost like the ref is desperate for something to happen. The most unappealing way for a game to go.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
No, which is why they are my favorite team to watch and have been for a decade. Madrid still abides by the thought process of letting their players adapt to the game state for whatever particular game they are in. They’ll change the formation based on personnel (this year a good example) but in general they aim to recruit players that have both a high level of ability but also the mental state to problem solve within the match.

It’s also why they dominate the UCL regularly while people ask “how do they do it?” every year. They have 0 issue sitting in a deep block and looking to kill games on the counter, and they can also control the game in possession against teams that want to park the bus against them. Its a welcome breath of fresh air that reminds me of the Fergie United teams in an era of endless “systems” that all basically aim to do the same thing.
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Agreed.
 
It's vastly better than peak Spain, 80 odd percent possession and winning on penalties.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
I've long said tactical fouling has done huge damage to the game and needed to be punished far more severely. Pep and Klopp figured it out early and realized that you can press absurdly high and get away with having Fabinho/Fernandinho just chop down someone in their own half if a team is about to break, and the player won't be booked until the 3rd time or so he's done it (which by that point is probably deep into the game while your team has dominated effortlessly). Couple that with VAR coming in and disallowing a shiteload of goals for offsides by the smallest of margins and it makes it incredibly hard for teams to deal with.

The game needs looser offsides margins and stricter penalties on tactical fouling, otherwise it'll just be all of these Pep carbon copy systems of everywhere as it's the only real way to play through it if you don't have Real Madrid level talent.
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Agreeand sounding bitter the number of times City have got awaywith it overa fewyears now is annoying.

The Pep effecthas been hugeon football and not just games. Youonlyhave to read so many posts on this website and some from very popular and respected posters on tactical analysis, talk of players roles and strengths and stats etc etc etc....personally find some of it really good....but just as I find tiresome....like proving anexpert and know more....I dont need abreak down of stats or the strengths and how someoneworks inasystem or therprogressive passing or tehnoque to make mymind up on a player

Obviouslyhis success as amanager warrants plaudits but a lot ofthese new phrases are just rebrands and a lot of what he does himselfis very Barca Cruyff and Dutch based. He has bought in some very interesting thingsthe last 2/3yearsthoughto be fair and obviously had alotof sucess from it.

Butis it entertaining?He produed oneof the bestclub sides of all time....but Rijkaards Barca was more entertaining. Personally his influence in the premiership has made it lose a lot of identity....the super high tempo go for the throat footballo has gone, we are similar to other European leagues now.

The different leagues and international football has lost a lot of its individuality. Guve me Fergies Utd or Wengers Arsenal,even early Mourinhos Chelsea towatch over Pepes City any day.

I would sayon the flip side....thelower teams are now so muchbetter than before....Brentford, Brighton and severalsides in these Euros....that is the positive flip side
 
For me, the single biggest problem in football matches right now is the habit of being fouled or simulating a foul and then turning every fall to the floor into a protracted time-wasting action.

Leg gets tapped and the player goes down screaming and crying for a minute.

Hand brushes neck and player crumples to the floor for a minute.

Even worse than the diving is the sheer amount of time spent on the floor grimacing over a tackle that almost certainly didn't hurt them at all.

And it's not some of them doing it. It's everyone. Every club, every nation. Exaggeration, exaggeration, exaggeration.

Foul. One minute on the floor.
Foul. One minute on the floor.
Foul. One minute on the floor.
Ad infinitum.

I wish they'd collectively just cut that shit out because it's ruining the game in general.
 
The way to deal with this side ways pass to death was to hard tackle them amd get to counter them on the wings over their heads. Somehow we managed to weed out even good back tackles, no direct red cards for tactical fouls, and VAR overly protecting defensive teams. So we countered most counter measures. It will not go into circles after this, statistics and efficiency that eliminates randomness and chaos, no matter how fun they are.
 
Blaming Pep for why the current generation of players isn't as exciting as previous ones is silly.

The lack of exciting players to watch (a la Ronaldinho, Riquelme, Totti, old Ronaldo, Aimar, Denilson...) already started before Guardiola began coaching. The generation of players that was coming through youth ranks when Pep became manager of Barcelona was already lacking in that segment compared to previous ones.

There just aren't any elite dribblers and strikers coming up. It's a generational thing.

KeanoMagicHat said:
People often forget that 4-4-2 wasn't seen as Brexit football in the mid-90s, it was seen as progressive then by unleashing from the 5 at the back man marking systems for zonal marking. I remember Wenger had opposition to it when he brought it in.
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Yeah, 4-4-2 was basically seen as Pep's tactics are seen now.

Coaches who used this system were seen as modern and progressive by their proponents and as "tactical nerds" and try hards by their detractors.

Some of the new generation coaches adhered to it rigidly, for example even Ancelotti admitted he didn't sign Roberto Baggio at Parma because he wanted to play a rigid 4-4-2 and he didn't fit in the system. He would only change the system later on at Juve for Zidane.

There was also the idea over Europe, particularly in lesser leagues, that you need quality players for 4-4-2 and that 3-5-2 is a safer option. It was not uncommon in Eastern Europe that most teams continued to play 3-5-2 even into the early 00s.

Most of the big teams played 4-4-2 in late 90s and early 00s. Juve under Capello, Inter...

Bayern played 4-4-2 until Van Gaal came in 2009.

Even Barcelona played 4-4-2 for a period, which is why Riquelme didn't fit in.

The change to different systems was influenced by Mourinho's Chelsea and Ancelotti's Milan. Then Guardiola and Klopp came. Löw using 4-2-3-1 in 2010 was influential too.
 
It's all in the eye of the beholder. It's natural that as one grows older, it's harder to be excited as we've seen it all and built a catalogue of memories from those years when we were just discovering the game. I remember my parents generation saying the exact same thing about the football I loved in the late '90s and '00s. They used to say the game has become boring and now I realise, it's them who were looking at it from older eyes. I think the fact is there is plenty of amazing things about the modern game that are miles better than it used to be 20 years ago just like there are things from 20 years ago that were exciting that we lost today. Every time period is marked by certain charateristics that makes exciting but at the same time, has some aspects that are not very good. We tend to notice and fixate on the positive or negative depending on which mindset we're coming at it from.
 
LA BOMBA said:
Blaming Pep for why the current generation of players isn't as exciting as previous ones is silly.

The lack of exciting players to watch (a la Ronaldinho, Riquelme, Totti, old Ronaldo, Aimar, Denilson...) already started before Guardiola began coaching. The generation of players that was coming through youth ranks when Pep became manager of Barcelona was already lacking in that segment compared to previous ones.

There just aren't any elite dribblers and strikers coming up. It's a generational thing.



Yeah, 4-4-2 was basically seen as Pep's tactics are seen now.

Coaches who used this system were seen as modern and progressive by their proponents and as "tactical nerds" and try hards by their detractors.

Some of the new generation coaches adhered to it rigidly, for example even Ancelotti admitted he didn't sign Roberto Baggio at Parma because he wanted to play a rigid 4-4-2 and he didn't fit in the system. He would only change the system later on at Juve for Zidane.

There was also the idea over Europe, particularly in lesser leagues, that you need quality players for 4-4-2 and that 3-5-2 is a safer option. It was not uncommon in Eastern Europe that most teams continued to play 3-5-2 even into the early 00s.

Most of the big teams played 4-4-2 in late 90s and early 00s. Juve under Capello, Inter...

Bayern played 4-4-2 until Van Gaal came in 2009.

Even Barcelona played 4-4-2 for a period, which is why Riquelme didn't fit in.

The change to different systems was influenced by Mourinho's Chelsea and Ancelotti's Milan. Then Guardiola and Klopp came. Löw using 4-2-3-1 in 2010 was influential too.
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Just a side note, Riquelme played a lot a 442 system in Boca with Bianchi, so that wasn't the issue, the issue is that coaches like Van Gaal or Bielsa just don't mix that well with stubborn more old school fellas like Riquelme or Di Maria. In fact He also played sometimes ina 442 formation in Villareal, of course in all of those cases with variations.
 
Fobal said:
Just a side note, Riquelme played a lot a 442 system in Boca with Bianchi, so that wasn't the issue, the issue is that coaches like Van Gaal or Bielsa just don't mix that well with stubborn more old school fellas like Riquelme or Di Maria. In fact He also played sometimes ina 442 formation in Villareal, of course in all of those cases with variations.
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Riquelme's problem is that he was somewhat slow. Not in terms of running speed or agility or turn of pace, he was fine there, it was his tendency to take his time dribbling in diagnols waiting for the perfect pass. He could dribble from width of the pitch trying to find that perfect pass. He would not fit any team looking for rapid end to end football. Bit like Veron in that sense.

This meant you had to build your entire playing style around him, or you had to basically ask him to lose his effectiveness by not playing him as the main playmaker.
 
Hoof the ball said:
For me, the single biggest problem in football matches right now is the habit of being fouled or simulating a foul and then turning every fall to the floor into a protracted time-wasting action.

Leg gets tapped and the player goes down screaming and crying for a minute.

Hand brushes neck and player crumples to the floor for a minute.

Even worse than the diving is the sheer amount of time spent on the floor grimacing over a tackle that almost certainly didn't hurt them at all.

And it's not some of them doing it. It's everyone. Every club, every nation. Exaggeration, exaggeration, exaggeration.

Foul. One minute on the floor.
Foul. One minute on the floor.
Foul. One minute on the floor.
Ad infinitum.

I wish they'd collectively just cut that shit out because it's ruining the game in general.
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Is that really worse than teams actively targetting the talented players by kicking lumps out of them? How many times have we seen the best players kicked out of a game in the past? I am not saying it's perfect today but each time has its ills and we will never have a perfect system. But it seems to me that anything is better than kicking the players we pay to watch. I remember the treatment Cristiano Ronaldo got and Sir Alex going ballistic at the lack of protection from referees and rightly so, and that was in the '00s! I know I'd take watching early CR with all his exaggerations and grimacing as you put it over no grimacing and a game where some hard men wannabes get away with their own form of cheating.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Riquelme's problem is that he was somewhat slow. Not in terms of running speed or agility or turn of pace, he was fine there, it was his tendency to take his time dribbling in diagnols waiting for the perfect pass. He could dribble from width of the pitch trying to find that perfect pass. He would not fit any team looking for rapid end to end football. Bit like Veron in that sense.

This meant you had to build your entire playing style around him, or you had to basically ask him to lose his effectiveness by not playing him as the main playmaker.
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I was talking about the formation 442, saying that this wasn't the problem, his roles were the issue. He was a classic enganche, old school organizative and tactical number 10 (there is another version of 10s that are more dinamic, more of a dribbler like an Aimar and finally you have simply off the charts players that play the 10 role like "wild cards": Maradona, Messi, Zico or even Pele in some periods or moments of games). When coaches asked him to play diff roles, he would not tolerate that, too much stubborn for his own good, even if he could be right.

Regarding rapid end to end football, he could do it, in fact he did it (he has lots of assists or pre assists in such style), but indeed it would have been
silly to ask him to do that full time, it would have been leaving aside lots of other atributes of his game.
Regarding Veron, depends on what version of him, his young self was a dinamic box to box number 8, his first time in Italy he was precisly an end to end rapid launcher (too much for my own taste, in an Italian League that loved to launch ball after ball playing with the rival mistake and pressure), later he would switch to a more tactical/pivot midfielder closer to what you might recall of him.
 
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