Is the team underperforming, or just... missing Keano

mikhail

Guest
Even in the height of United's glory, it was generally accepted that they were half the team without Keane. Keane has been injured/suspended/not-entirely-match-fit for the best part of a year now. Even when he came back towards the end of last season, he was clealy below par (of course, par for him is pretty much a hole in one).
So perhaps Keane will be back in December, avoid suspension for a whole, and get fully fit, and back to his best form. And then we'll see just how much differance he makes.
The last two times Arsenal won the league, Keane missed significant parts of the season. Am I wrong, or is it he who makes United Champions.
But he'll never win World Footballer of the Year. Because Beckham, Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo - the guys with media pull, have the competition sewn up.
 
They better get used to playing without him. I don't think he is going to stay past this year :(
 
Originally posted by mikhail:
<strong>Even in the height of United's glory, it was generally accepted that they were half the team without Keane. Keane has been injured/suspended/not-entirely-match-fit for the best part of a year now. Even when he came back towards the end of last season, he was clealy below par (of course, par for him is pretty much a hole in one).
So perhaps Keane will be back in December, avoid suspension for a whole, and get fully fit, and back to his best form. And then we'll see just how much differance he makes.
The last two times Arsenal won the league, Keane missed significant parts of the season. Am I wrong, or is it he who makes United Champions.
But he'll never win World Footballer of the Year. Because Beckham, Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo - the guys with media pull, have the competition sewn up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's little doubt that Keane is a huge influence. Statistics show that we win more games when he's playing than when he's out. Also Fergie recently referred to the fact that without Keane we tend to lose a bit of the competitive edge. He intimated that we do not have any real battlers in the same mould when he's not there which was rather a revealing comment I thought. This is all well and good but reliance on such a volatile character,who's going to miss a number of games each season, is not healthy for the team surely. In the meantime, without doubt, we can look forward to improved performances when he returns
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Kinda surprised how people turned on Keano this year and its funny to see how it backfires. With united Ive heard people say hes mental and a loose cannon but thats not true. Understandably hes pissed off this year after missing the world and what he did to mcateer was stupid but he has so much to offer in passion energy and drive. He influences anyone and is missed by Ireland who lost the first two Euro qualifiers and Utd. Anyone who thinks that beckham is an equal captain need their head read. He struggles to bring England through against Slovakia and Macedonia while keane led a much poorer Irish team against Holland and portugal and got results. There is no doubt you miss keane I dont think theres a team in the land who wouldnt
 
Kinda surprised how people turned on Keano this year and its funny to see how it backfires. With united Ive heard people say hes mental and a loose cannon but thats not true. Understandably hes pissed off this year after missing the world and what he did to mcateer was stupid but he has so much to offer in passion energy and drive. He influences anyone and is missed by Ireland who lost the first two Euro qualifiers and Utd. Anyone who thinks that beckham is an equal captain need their head read. He struggles to bring England through against Slovakia and Macedonia while keane led a much poorer Irish team against Holland and portugal and got results. There is no doubt you miss keane I dont think theres a team in the land who wouldnt <hr></blockquote>

Sounds about right to me!
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"Even in the height of United's glory, it was generally accepted that they were half the team without Keane."

Maybe in Ireland.
 
Another are we shite thread? <img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" />
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Another are we shite thread? <img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not really. Just acknowledgement that Keane's a big influence, that we play better when he's in the side and that we possibly rely on him too much.
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"The last two times Arsenal won the league, Keane missed significant parts of the season."

Very true for 98, but not last season. he wasn´t longer injured til spring and we lost many games.

True we are not playing very well most of this season without him, but did we in the few games with him? Anyone remember West Brom or this hungarian side away ?
 
So Becks75 you think that without keane you have the drive passion and courage to take a game by the scruff of the neck and win it. I dont think you do as was proven when keane go his cruciate injury I dont think united won anything that year and this year the start of the season has been poor coinciding with keanes abscence. Its clear your upset about the comments about Beckham but its simply true that keane is a better captain with his intimidating demeanor and inspirational play!!!
 
"He struggles to bring England through against Slovakia and Macedonia while keane led a much poorer Irish team against Holland and portugal and got results."

:rolleyes: Well he led an English team against Germany and Argentina and got results and I´m shure that Ireland has lost one or two games under captain keane too.
By the way beckham scored against Slovakia and Macedonia and was at least against Macedonia man of the match by a mile.
I´m also not shure if the Irish team is " much poorer" than the english one.
 
Fair enough - I didn't read the full title of this thread. My mistake.

What's underperforming though, really? I mean we can't have honestly expected that we could continue to dominate English football like we have in the past few years could we? And in Europe we've never looked convincing like Bayern or Real have IMO. We are only human and we'll have periods like this. The others have sussed us out more than we are underperforming IMO. As for Keane, correct me if I'm wrong but don't the stats show that we are no worse and no better since his absence?
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>like Bayern or Real have IMO. </strong><hr></blockquote>

They've looked very dodgy this year, the CL is wide open this season. IMO.
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"So Becks75 you think that without keane you have the drive passion and courage to take a game by the scruff of the neck and win it. I dont think you do as was proven when keane go his cruciate injury I dont think united won anything that year and this year the start of the season has been poor coinciding with keanes abscence. Its clear your upset about the comments about Beckham but its simply true that keane is a better captain with his intimidating demeanor and inspirational play!!! "

rolleyes:
I´ve never said that keane isn`t a great captain and isn`t missing. Of course he is. I just don`t like the usual bollox that the whole team is poor and only the irish god can save us. As I said he played in most games last season and we didn`t win anything too. He played in the first few games of this season and we were poor too. That´s all mate.
 
Originally posted by Spoony:
<strong>

They've looked very dodgy this year, the CL is wide open this season. IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>

To clarify, I was referring to the past 5 years. Obviously Bayern haven't looked the best this year.
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"To clarify, I was referring to the past 5 years. Obviously Bayern haven't looked the best this year."

We had pretty much the same results as Bayern in Europe in the last 5 years.
 
I know what you mean that the Irish are blinkered when it comes to keane and there are far better footballers with skill at Man Utd but Keane has something that others lack something mental and physical. He is superb at influencing a game and makes average players in the mould of Gary Breen and Ian Harte look good as he takes responsiblity for them and helps them through each game. At united when the team is floundering and fringe players like Phil Neville or Chadwick come in he can help them through and improve there game but your right he doesnt make Man Utd no one person does but he gels the team together nicely when he plays. As for Beckham against Slovakia he played alright but slovakia bossed the midfield which shouldnt happen and he couldnt drive his team on to beat a poor macedonia in St Marys I dont think he is as influential as a captain as keane is!!!
 
Why does this thread have to turn into a Keane v Beckham thing? Of course, we are missing Keane; he's one of our most influential players as well as a gritty competitor, but we also missed Beckham at the end of last season when he was injured with the broken foot. We need to have all our best players fit and playing well if we want to challenge for trophies.

I think having Keane back won't just improve the quality of our football, it will also be a welcome psychological boost for the whole team, as well as the fans. Keane gives us self-belief that we can win no matter what the situation. United are lacking inspiration at present and his return could be the moment that kick-starts our challenge. Well, here's hoping anyway! <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
 
Originally posted by Nh1878:
<strong>Why does this thread have to turn into a Keane v Beckham thing? Of course, we are missing Keane; he's one of our most influential players as well as a gritty competitor, but we also missed Beckham at the end of last season when he was injured with the broken foot. We need to have all our best players fit and playing well if we want to challenge for trophies.

I think having Keane back won't just improve the quality of our football, it will also be a welcome psychological boost for the whole team, as well as the fans. Keane gives us self-belief that we can win no matter what the situation. United are lacking inspiration at present and his return could be the moment that kick-starts our challenge. Well, here's hoping anyway! <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

That's pretty much what I ment. No offence to Beckham - he's a key player, and would be sorely missed were he injured.
Apart from the psychological boost, Keane will also shield the back-line, and improve the passing (he wasn't the most accurate passer in the Premiership for the last two years (at least) for nothing.)
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"Why does this thread have to turn into a Keane v Beckham thing? Of course, we are missing Keane; he's one of our most influential players as well as a gritty competitor, but we also missed Beckham at the end of last season when he was injured with the broken foot. We need to have all our best players fit and playing well if we want to challenge for trophies.
I think having Keane back won't just improve the quality of our football, it will also be a welcome psychological boost for the whole team, as well as the fans. Keane gives us self-belief that we can win no matter what the situation. United are lacking inspiration at present and his return could be the moment that kick-starts our challenge. Well, here's hoping anyway!"

Amen
:) <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Fair enough - I didn't read the full title of this thread. My mistake.

What's underperforming though, really? I mean we can't have honestly expected that we could continue to dominate English football like we have in the past few years could we? And in Europe we've never looked convincing like Bayern or Real have IMO. We are only human and we'll have periods like this. The others have sussed us out more than we are underperforming IMO. As for Keane, correct me if I'm wrong but don't the stats show that we are no worse and no better since his absence?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Realistically you're probably right, we couldn't expect to dominate year in and year out each season, although if we are in some sort of prolonged decline it's very premature given the side's average age and experience. However we do remain unfulfilled in Europe in that Fergie wanted to emulate AC Milan, Real, Ajax, Bayern etc and win the ECL a few times to really establish his side as a great one in European terms and not just a onc- off winner. I still think he wants to win it once more if not twice before he retires and this aim is to the exclusion virtually of everything else - hence the underperformance in the PL (by our standards that is). My own preference is for United to once again re-establish their domestic dominance over Arsenal & Liverpool first and take the ECL as it comes. Money probably dictates that the order of preference is the way Fergie's got it though. You'll probably find if we play well week in and week out our performances in the ECL will be good as well. Maybe it's an issue of having been thoroughly spoilt over the last ten years but I see no real reason why we should go into decline, provided everyone, including Fergie, remains hungry and motivated and the proper tactics are used against the teams who, yes, have sussed as out. We most certainly have the players to do it, provided they are available, but our strength in depth to cope with injuries and suspensions is another question.

As far as Keane and statistics are concerned, I actually did a survey myself over a period of a couple of seasons and it showed that we definitely fared better with him in the side. Not at all surprising really.
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JD - agree with your theory that the CL has dominated the manager's thinking to the detriment of our league performances. I think he want's to be the man who's won it twice at United. And why not, he deserves his shot at it after what he's done. But then perhaps his methods need to be questioned i.e. how he's trying to achieve this. Veron is the wrong player in my eyes, although it's taken his performances to prove that, prior to him coming many would have said he looked the ideal addition, especially as the manager wanted to employ the 4-5-1. Ok, so Veron's a mistake, but I don't think the manager can be blamed for that - it's expensive bad luck IMO, although personally I don't believe Veron was ever as good as he was made out to be. In the PL I do think teams have worked out how to play us - we seem to have to work far harder to break teams down these days and leave ourselves open at times in doing so. I don't think the patient game suits the prem as it does in Europe and we're perhaps getting caught between two styles of play and just not hitting the right notes.

As for Keane, I meant this season actually, in the sense that this season was what the underperforming question was referring to. I have no doubt that over the years the absence of Keano can only have been to the detriment of our team.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

To clarify, I was referring to the past 5 years. Obviously Bayern haven't looked the best this year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

United haven't been all that bad over the last five years have they?


what is it..... two semis, one final and two quarters? comparable to the big boys. IMO.
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

United haven't been all that bad over the last five years have they?


what is it..... two semis, one final and two quarters? comparable to the big boys. IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not talking results so much as performance - we don't look convincing enough to be considered one of the best European teams there has ever been, which I believe is what Ferguson has always wanted. People don't remember us in that way - we are remembered as always getting to the semis, our win aside. Bayern and Madrid have both been in at least 2 finals and for my money looked stronger and more convincing on the pitch than we have over the same time period.
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Originally posted by Nh1878:
<strong>Why does this thread have to turn into a Keane v Beckham thing? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Beacuse this guy (girl?) becks75 took the opening statement personally :rolleyes: . We are better with Keane, any team would be, end of story.
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"Beacuse this guy (girl?) becks75 took the opening statement personally . We are better with Keane, any team would be, end of story."

:rolleyes:
Nice to see that you don`t read my posts after reading my name. Muppet
 
"Bayern and Madrid have both been in at least 2 finals and for my money looked stronger and more convincing on the pitch than we have over the same time period."

Madrid did, Bayern not. IMO
 
keane is the most complete player in the world today,he has been for the last four years....just wait till he gets back,there will be hell to pay for ;)
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>JD - agree with your theory that the CL has dominated the manager's thinking to the detriment of our league performances. I think he want's to be the man who's won it twice at United. And why not, he deserves his shot at it after what he's done. But then perhaps his methods need to be questioned i.e. how he's trying to achieve this. Veron is the wrong player in my eyes, although it's taken his performances to prove that, prior to him coming many would have said he looked the ideal addition, especially as the manager wanted to employ the 4-5-1. Ok, so Veron's a mistake, but I don't think the manager can be blamed for that - it's expensive bad luck IMO, although personally I don't believe Veron was ever as good as he was made out to be. In the PL I do think teams have worked out how to play us - we seem to have to work far harder to break teams down these days and leave ourselves open at times in doing so. I don't think the patient game suits the prem as it does in Europe and we're perhaps getting caught between two styles of play and just not hitting the right notes.

As for Keane, I meant this season actually, in the sense that this season was what the underperforming question was referring to. I have no doubt that over the years the absence of Keano can only have been to the detriment of our team.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I took keane's statistics over the last two seasons, not including this one. He's only played 5 out of 18 matches this season so you can't really judge it on that.
Yes Fergie is entitled to go for the ECL and of course it would be fantastic if we win it, particularly at OT. Whether or not we're good enough is another matter. Still, I would prefer a broader approach with the PL as our first priority. Teams have found out how to play us and this has been the case for three seasons now. It didn't matter in the PL to start with because we simply rolled over the weaker oppostion but now even those teams seem to be able to counter-act our "flair". As far as Veron is concerned I welcomed his acquisition, as did everybody else at the time. I think he's shown what he can do occasionally but not nearly often enough. On balance I would keep him from a playing point of view because he can produce that magical touch to win important games, particulary in the ECL. However, if it means his sale is the only way of raising funds to buy say two others who would be essential for the squad and his inconsistent performances continued, he should be sold. That takes us back to square one though, in that we weren't creating enough chances against those packed defences - the reason why JSV was bought in the first place.
As far as Fergie is concerned, he must take full responsibility for the results. If he spends the entire transfer allocation on one player and there is nothing left for anybody else, he must take the rap if things go wrong. The problem with him I think is that he has this messianic status amongst most fans who think he can do no wrong. I can understand that completely but there comes a time when the reality hits home. I think we're beyond that stage which is a pity because Fergie should have retired at the top. I hope he proves me utterly wrong though.
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Originally posted byLynott:
quote:
Originally posted by Nh1878:
Why does this thread have to turn into a Keane v Beckham thing?
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Beacuse this guy (girl?) becks75 took the opening statement personally . We are better with Keane, any team would be, end of story.
<hr></blockquote>

I was simply asking the question to make a general point; I wasn't really looking for a literal answer! And to be fair to becks75, they were only defending Beckham in response to someone else who was criticising him. But to re-iterate what I said in my post, let's not turn this into a Keane v Becks issue - we need em' both!
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