Is Lisandro Martinez single-handedly making the case for [elite] short centre backs?

Fortitude

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One of the absolute worst things that has happened with the British media this season was the slaughtering and dismissal of Martinez before he’d even kicked a ball in anger for United, but further to that, the doubling down pundits and writers had - or have - taken, hellbent on being proven right or not having to hold their hands up despite their position looking more foolish by the week. Even now, some are pra(e)ying for the moment Martinez is demonstrably destroyed in the air, no doubt then hoping to hone in on that whilst presenting their narrative in utterly bad faith.

The caf, too, was awash with posts that wrote Martinez off based on nothing but him being short. To be fair, some mocked that notion and those posters and even memed it, so it certainly wasn’t allowed to permeate unchallenged, but even here there hasn’t been a peep out of some of the more staunch in acknowledgement of how poor and presumptive a call they made.

Martinez has been one of the best centre backs in the country and comfortably in the running for one of the best signing of last summer outright. For many, this is the first time they’ve witnessed a dominant short centre back, or known of such a phenomena despite arguably the greatest CB of all time being perhaps a smidgeon taller than Martinez.

The question here isn’t about normal CB’s of diminutive height, but rather those deemed elite, modern day defenders - has Martinez quelled unrest or derision in regard to them? Seeing it first-hand in the modern game, where we no longer have to cite a Baresi, Passarella, Puyol or Ayala from decades ago to make the point of how special a short CB can be, should have opened eyes and smoothed the way for other short CB’s to be looked at without fear they’ll be a soft target, or not? The examination of Martinez’s perceived weakness or susceptibility to aerial balls or large centre-forwards seems to have all but stopped; it isn’t seen as a viable tactic, or not one to waste potential attacking opportunities on anymore, but do you believe there’s been enough evidence for a paradigm shift, or will the exact same rigmarole occur should the next short CB of repute enter the PL?

For yourself, if you were a sceptic, has what Martinez done this season caused you to review your own take, or do you see him as an outlier?
 
No. Not for me. Because he's a special/specific case where he loves to defend and get physical and has a good jump. That doesnt mean the next shorter CB. even if considered "elite" has those exact qualities and will do well. And without them they probably wont.
 
Licha is clearly an outlier. The fact that there are so few, if any, sub-6ft central defenders at top level is testament to this.
Having a clear disadvantage in height does make it a risky proposition.
But, what he lacks in height, he more than makes up with elite level anticipation, aggression and positioning. It's rare to see those qualities in one defender.
 
Didn’t Fergie say Gary Neville was a couple of inches short of being the best centre back in the world?

I think Martinez is an exception, along with the others mentioned, because they are exceptionally good defenders. I don’t think short centre backs will become the norm.
 
Dont see why not. Maybe back in the day when you had the big man knocking it on to the small man but who plays long anymore? Wingers don’t even cross the ball that much these days with the obsession with wide forwards.
 
So good that they named a critically acclaimed film after him. The Big Short.
 
It helps to be playing with Varane, they compliment each other nicely.
 
Daley Blind is slower, weaker and just slightly taller than Martinez, and he did well enough at CB compared to his taller, stronger counterparts.
 
He and his mate Shaw seem to be on a crusade to make this case (even though Shaw's commonly documented height online is suspiciously a lot taller than he actually looks!)
 
I was thinking about something like this the other day

I think the most important quality in the Premier League apart from skill is intelligence. Players who are intelligent will always do well, the Premier League isn't this giants psuedo-rugby union type of competition
 
Exception to the rule, really. Across Europe I can’t think of a single CB who is also around his height. Even in the weaker leagues.

Azpilicueta for the last few years, I guess? Though he was always in a back 3. Timber at Ajax too? Though he’s slightly taller and far more physical
 
Spaghetti said:
Didn’t Fergie say Gary Neville was a couple of inches short of being the best centre back in the world?

I think Martinez is an exception, along with the others mentioned, because they are exceptionally good defenders. I don’t think short centre backs will become the norm.
Click to expand...

Fergie said a lot of things that didn't make much sense.
 
Bar the game against Brentford, whereby he was targeted and was culpable for one goal from a CB much taller than him, he has been solid in the air.

But you couldn't have two CBs under 6 foot, that'd be asking for trouble, it has helped him having the defensive partners he has had.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Exception to the rule, really. Across Europe I can’t think of a single CB who is also around his height. Even in the weaker leagues.

Azpilicueta for the last few years, I guess? Though he was always in a back 3. Timber at Ajax too? Though he’s slightly taller and far more physical
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised if CBs under 180cm are never developed a centre-backs, there are probably short players who could do well there but get developed as full-backs or midfielders
 
He doesn’t lose that much in terms of aerial ability because of his leap, timing, anticipation and aggressiveness. Vidic regularly bested Crouch in the air whilst being 15 cm shorter.

What Martinez does have that few 190cm plus cbs lack is agility and quick feet. He is remarkably agile, which is a huge asset inside his own box. He’s also surprisingly nippy off the mark, and showed yesterday he also has a pretty good top speed. His tackling on the ground is also brilliant.

His height can be a negative, but it is also a huge plus, just as it is for a striker.
 
The more the game is played on the floor, the less the need for huge centre backs. I think Martinez (and Shaw) have shown that one relatively short centre back with perhaps increased mobility over the taller players in the same position can be very beneficial. It helps that Martinez is an absolute terrier though.
 
Champ said:
Bar the game against Brentford, whereby he was targeted and was culpable for one goal from a CB much taller than him, he has been solid in the air.

But you couldn't have two CBs under 6 foot, that'd be asking for trouble, it has helped him having the defensive partners he has had.
Click to expand...

I think the Brentford targeting thing is exaggerated somewhat if I’m honest.
 
He's a short CB who doesn't play like a short CB. He's so aggressive that it doesn't matter
 
Champ said:
Bar the game against Brentford, whereby he was targeted and was culpable for one goal from a CB much taller than him, he has been solid in the air.

But you couldn't have two CBs under 6 foot, that'd be asking for trouble, it has helped him having the defensive partners he has had.
Click to expand...
This is a massive misconception.

Go back and watch that game and you'll realise he actually won pretty much every duel - you're just listening to the commentator fed drivvle.

Yes they scored from the corner but;

1 he slipped

2 the attacker had a running jump on him.

They certainly TRIED to target him, but he did no worse than he's done in any other match.
 
Martinez doesn't get the overwhelming praise he deserves by the media here. It's because he's 1) not English and 2) a good proportion of idiot pundits ruled him out because of either height or dutch league affiliation and now they don't want to correct themselves.
 
TheReligion said:
I think the Brentford targeting thing is exaggerated somewhat if I’m honest.
Click to expand...
He dealt with most things reasonably well that game, but he was targeted massively, hence the reason EtH took him off.
And was definitely culpable for the goal.
 
Spaghetti said:
Didn’t Fergie say Gary Neville was a couple of inches short of being the best centre back in the world?

I think Martinez is an exception, along with the others mentioned, because they are exceptionally good defenders. I don’t think short centre backs will become the norm.
Click to expand...

Fergie has a long history of saying stupid shit tbf.
 
Adam-Utd said:
This is a massive misconception.

Go back and watch that game and you'll realise he actually won pretty much every duel - you're just listening to the commentator fed drivvle.

Yes they scored from the corner but;

1 he slipped

2 the attacker had a running jump on him.

They certainly TRIED to target him, but he did no worse than he's done in any other match.
Click to expand...
Martinez was taken off for a reason that game, they were targeting him, and whilst he dealt with most things comfortably, it was a required sub to bring some respite from the bombardment of long balls.

Watch the game and you'll see that time and time again Brentford were hitting long balls to the left hand side of defence to target him, and eventually it paid off.

I think he's done brilliantly bar that game whereby he was relatively new to the team still and had probably never really had to deal with a game plan like that too often and so was slightly hesitant in places.
 
Adam-Utd said:
This is a massive misconception.

Go back and watch that game and you'll realise he actually won pretty much every duel - you're just listening to the commentator fed drivvle.

Yes they scored from the corner but;

1 he slipped

2 the attacker had a running jump on him.

They certainly TRIED to target him, but he did no worse than he's done in any other match.
Click to expand...

Yeah absolutely agree with this.
 
Adam-Utd said:
This is a massive misconception.

Go back and watch that game and you'll realise he actually won pretty much every duel - you're just listening to the commentator fed drivvle.

Yes they scored from the corner but;

1 he slipped

2 the attacker had a running jump on him.

They certainly TRIED to target him, but he did no worse than he's done in any other match.
Click to expand...

This!
 
Fortitude said:
One of the absolute worst things that has happened with the British media this season was the slaughtering and dismissal of Martinez before he’d even kicked a ball in anger for United, but further to that, the doubling down pundits and writers had - or have - taken, hellbent on being proven right or not having to hold their hands up despite their position looking more foolish by the week. Even now, some are pra(e)ying for the moment Martinez is demonstrably destroyed in the air, no doubt then hoping to hone in on that whilst presenting their narrative in utterly bad faith.

The caf, too, was awash with posts that wrote Martinez off based on nothing but him being short. To be fair, some mocked that notion and those posters and even memed it, so it certainly wasn’t allowed to permeate unchallenged, but even here there hasn’t been a peep out of some of the more staunch in acknowledgement of how poor and presumptive a call they made.

Martinez has been one of the best centre backs in the country and comfortably in the running for one of the best signing of last summer outright. For many, this is the first time they’ve witnessed a dominant short centre back, or known of such a phenomena despite arguably the greatest CB of all time being perhaps a smidgeon taller than Martinez.

The question here isn’t about normal CB’s of diminutive height, but rather those deemed elite, modern day defenders - has Martinez quelled unrest or derision in regard to them? Seeing it first-hand in the modern game, where we no longer have to cite a Baresi, Passarella, Puyol or Ayala from decades ago to make the point of how special a short CB can be, should have opened eyes and smoothed the way for other short CB’s to be looked at without fear they’ll be a soft target, or not? The examination of Martinez’s perceived weakness or susceptibility to aerial balls or large centre-forwards seems to have all but stopped; it isn’t seen as a viable tactic, or not one to waste potential attacking opportunities on anymore, but do you believe there’s been enough evidence for a paradigm shift, or will the exact same rigmarole occur should the next short CB of repute enter the PL?

For yourself, if you were a sceptic, has what Martinez done this season caused you to review your own take, or do you see him as an outlier?
Click to expand...

It is the same as always, being short as a CB is a bit of a disadvantage. But it is not a very big disadvantage, and it is still possible to be a great CB despite being short. In fact, if a CB is short and still makes it to the highest level he probably have to be even better than a tall one because he will always be under lazy scrutiny.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Exception to the rule, really. Across Europe I can’t think of a single CB who is also around his height. Even in the weaker leagues.

Azpilicueta for the last few years, I guess? Though he was always in a back 3. Timber at Ajax too? Though he’s slightly taller and far more physical
Click to expand...

There's also one of those selection/availability bias things at play there too though.

If the widespread belief is that CBs need to be tall then you'll end up with tall CBs. But that doesn't tell you whether that belief as applied to the highest level of modern football actually still holds true, just that it's still widely believed in the development of CBs.

It could be that the inexact relationship between height and aerial ability, a reduced emphasis on long balls and aerial crosses, the shift towards playing higher lines and the increased emphasis on ability in possession and defending isolated space all make shorter CBs perfectly viable at the highest level. Just as it was perfectly viable for ETH to pair a 5ft 9 Martinez with a 5ft 10 Timber for Ajax. But because there so few short CBs make it to that market to begin with, we just don't see it often.
 
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DevilsOwn said:
Licha is clearly an outlier. The fact that there are so few, if any, sub-6ft central defenders at top level is testament to this.
Having a clear disadvantage in height does make it a risky proposition.
But, what he lacks in height, he more than makes up with elite level anticipation, aggression and positioning. It's rare to see those qualities in one defender.
Click to expand...

Possibly. It's also a fact that souts and coaches will not pick small players as centre backs. They will either not be scouted or they will be moved to other positions.

Yes height is an advantage with heading duels, but there are actually more important factors such as strength and positioning.

Dalot for example is better in the air than AWB despite being smaller, as he will not give his man a free run and make sure he puts him off balance enough to miss if he does lose the header.
 
Its like Hansens 'You can't win anything with kids' quote. He's been mocked for 20 plus years for that one. But generally its the truth. Just sometimes on rare occasions someone defies the standard. Like Leicester winning the league. It can be done. But I would with great certainty say that the majority of CB's being will not be short in the future decade.
 
His height can be an advantage. I wrote this last year:

This talk of his height is so tiresome and incredibly short sighted (stop it). Sure, against a 6'+ defender he is likely to get out-jumped in the box, but his lower center of gravity gives him the exact same advantages it does Messi. His first few yards will be quicker than a traditional CB, he's less likely to get turned by attackers than a John Terry type. For all the Haalands and Drogbas we've seen over the years, there are as many Agueros and Suarezes who would run rings around Maguire that would have a far harder time picking on someone their own size. So yes, he may get beaten in the air a few times a game, but he makes up for it, not by being capable in other aspects, but specifically because his lack of height can be advantageous too. That's the long and the short of it.
 
Tbf some of the best CBs of the past have been short, so I'm not sure one more excellent short CB changes that narrative.

What was more specific to Martinez is the idea that you can't have that short a CB in the Premier League. If it changes the perception around anything it should be the exaggerated notion of just how uniquely physical the PL is and how that physicality manifests itself.

Because some people seemed to be imagining the PL as a brutish, direct league filled with giants who would bully a shorter CB in a way they've never encountered before. When in reality there are few if any old-school
stereotypically "English" style teams in the league any more. A league like La Liga has statistically played more long-ball football in recent seasons, players in the PL are shorter on average than even the league Martinez just came from and insofar as the PL is any more physical than other leagues it's in terms of the pace and intensity of the game rather that pure strength. Bernardo Silva style running machines are what the PL demands, not size.
 
It's like any dinosaur view, it'll die out in a few years. I imagine it was the same with the smaller midfielders that started to pop up in the 2000s as the game transitioned from box-to-box 4-4-2s into three-man ball-retaining units. Now nobody in their right mind would express that opinion.

Leaving aside the perception, I don't think it'll make much difference to how clubs identify potential signings. The smartest clubs always looked at the combination of attributes and how they fit into how you want to play. I suspect the dominant cetntre-half profile will remain the bigger units, but with much more of an emphasis on the quicker guys who can defend a high line. The Liverpool prototype centre-half - 1.95m tall, top speed around 35km/h, vertical jump likely around 65-80cm - pretty much covers every physical requirement for the elite club game.
 
I think he's just an outlier really.
Also the modern game is played on the deck with few crosses and long balls.
Although there is a trend with very tall strikers at the moment with Nunez, Haaland, Isak, Wout, Etc.

What I really like about him is his technical ability and agility. His vertical passing through the lines are very potent
 
I love Martinez and thought he was amazing last night, however I think timing plays a part here. He's playing in a possession-orientated team in one of the most technical leagues in the world, where there are world class coaches across the entire division promoting progressive football.

If he'd joined United 10-15 years ago when the style of the league was different, I'd lean to agree with the sentiment.
 
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