Is Joga Bonito dead?- Flair Players in the Top 5 Leagues

BenitoSTARR

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Who would you say are the most flair like players in the top 5 leagues?

Honestly I’m struggling to think of anyone who exhibits this kind of quality. Flair for flairs sake regularly. Is joga bonito dead?

The kind of players that will do Ronaldinho esque skills etc?

Bring some joga bonito to Benito please.

Videos appreciated too!
 
It's a good question, because I can't think of the many dribblers using tricks like Ronaldinho etc anymore.

Dribbling is very efficient and more mechanical now. They're all from the same school of tight control, subtle feints and late acceleration to beat the man. You won't find many players flapping their feet over the ball now, and I don't think defenders buy those tricks anymore.
 
Skills said:
It's a good question, because I can't think of the many dribblers using tricks like Ronaldinho etc anymore.

Dribbling is very efficient and more mechanical now. They're all from the same school of tight control, subtle feints and late acceleration to beat the man. You won't find many players flapping their feet over the ball now, and I don't think defenders buy those tricks anymore.
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This is my thoughts too. I think the Messi school of dribbling has proven this to be more effective (and of course still very fun to watch).

But it feels like the circus isn’t in town anymore?

Please someone give me some hope!
 
It's a shame, because they were my favourite players growing up. Hoping Antony can become more consistent cos when his tricks come off they are great to watch
 
Yes with Neymar gone to Saudi there's even fewer. Benzema and Firmino were also nice to watch but also gone. Messi is also entertaining in a different non-showboating way. They're all gone...

Vinicius is good to watch and might have potential to showboat more.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
This is my thoughts too. I think the Messi school of dribbling has proven this to be more effective (and of course still very fun to watch).

But it feels like the circus isn’t in town anymore?

Please someone give me some hope!
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Even if you look at a step over, the act of actually swinging your foot around the ball just slows you down.

The defender either falls or doesn't fall for the feint much earlier than that - usually at the point you've started shifting your weight at the hips.
 
Rashford pulls a nice trick out now and again, but I agree that there's far fewer players playing with flair these days. System football has put paid to it.
 
yumtum said:
Football has become very robotic, and it's not for me.
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Agreed. Watching the likes of Ronaldinho, Okocha and young Ronaldo growing up was what it was all about. You'd be talking about it in school all the next day, trying to copy it on break etc etc.

This Pepian brand of ruthless efficiency is frankly, a barrel of shite.
 
Elasticos still come out sometimes, and I reckon they're a nice overlap in the effective/entertaining Venn diagram. Rashford is as good as anyone at that, and Antony has it in his locker too (one of his chances created against Forest came from one, I think.)
 
I wonder if a step towards revival can ensue having flair players in lower quality leagues such as Saudi? Neymar may be able to have a field day entertaining crowds there and the general inconsequentiality of the league could even open the space for some experimental moves.
 
tenpoless said:
Mitoma is a flair player. Sign Mitoma.
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Maybe controversial but I don’t think he is. I think he’s a brilliantly efficient player but I don’t see him as a traditional flair player. I think he’s the archetypal modern dribbler as discussed above.
Rodgerzzz said:


How much stick did he get afterwards?
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100% football should for me always have those moments of entertainment.

Think Nani at Arsenal? Would that happen now?
space said:
It's a shame, because they were my favourite players growing up. Hoping Antony can become more consistent cos when his tricks come off they are great to watch
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Same. I also appreciate a good passer mind.

I hope Antony doesn’t get it killed out of his game.
Skills said:
Even if you look at a step over, the act of actually swinging your foot around the ball just slows you down.

The defender either falls or doesn't fall for the feint much earlier than that - usually at the point you've started shifting your weight at the hips.
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Agreed. Efficiency is dominant.
youngrell said:
Rashford pulls a nice trick out now and again, but I agree that there's far fewer players playing with flair these days. System football has put paid to it.
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Yeah he does actually. And he’s one of the best at it in the PL I’d say.
OleGunnar20 said:
Agreed. Watching the likes of Ronaldinho, Okocha and young Ronaldo growing up was what it was all about. You'd be talking about it in school all the next day, trying to copy it on break etc etc.

This Pepian brand of ruthless efficiency is frankly, a barrel of shite.
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I hope we get another Okocha in the PL.

I don’t think it’s a barrel of shite there is so much skill and technique/ intelligence that goes into it that I can admire it and enjoy aspects of it. But feck me do I love a Quaresma type player.

Bruno made me smile so much with his rabona cross the other day.
Brightonian said:
Elasticos still come out sometimes, and I reckon they're a nice overlap in the effective/entertaining Venn diagram. Rashford is as good as anyone at that, and Antony has it in his locker too (one of his chances created against Forest came from one, I think.)
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You’re right actually we probably have two wide players who are happy enough to pull out a bit of flair from time to time.
jadaba said:
I wonder if a step towards revival can ensue having flair players in lower quality leagues such as Saudi? Neymar may be able to have a field day entertaining crowds there and the general inconsequentiality of the league could even open the space for some experimental moves.
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Good point. I mean I look at Messi in the MLS and it’s just so joyful watching someone so good show off a bit again.

Can’t see myself getting behind the Saudi League though.
 
I blame Guradiola. The radical change the game has seen ever since he became a manager. That cnut has killed a lot of things in football for me. The robotic play, lack of flair (bar messi), no strikers, over emphasis on playing from the back. The bald cnut was playing with a false no 9 when the game was using two strikers up top.
 
kaku06 said:
I blame Guradiola. The radical change the game has seen ever since he became a manager. That cnut has killed a lot of things in football for me. The robotic play, lack of flair (bar messi), no strikers, over emphasis on playing from the back. The bald cnut was playing with a false no 9 when the game was using two strikers up top.
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Pretty sure Guardiola's had very little influence on the way players dribble. He's not a youth coach or hasn't been one for years. Tactically he's obviously been revolutionary.

I'd Messi has had the most profound effect on the dribbling style of players, but then again the likes of Iniesta, Isco, David Silva were around the same time as well. Maybe Michael Laudrup started this shift?
 
Was talking to a guy a few days ago who was convinced Riquelme wouldn't make it in a top team nowadays.

In these topics I never know what to think, because football seems more boring nowadays, but I'm aware that maybe it's only nostalgia.
 
Bring back football where there was bit of freedom. Love watching videos of the old games. Zidane for example like he was playing out on the street, joy to watch. Don't see that type of player anymore.
 
kaku06 said:
I blame Guradiola. The radical change the game has seen ever since he became a manager. That cnut has killed a lot of things in football for me. The robotic play, lack of flair (bar messi), no strikers, over emphasis on playing from the back. The bald cnut was playing with a false no 9 when the game was using two strikers up top.
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Pretty sure Spaletti started the false 9 trend with Roma and Totti. United smashed them 7-1 and it didn't look so effective anymore. Guess having Messi, Henry, Eto'o, Villa, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets made the system look a bit more effective.

Agreed though that football has become robotic and quite boring to watch in recent years. Now everything happening at a frantic pace and forcing mistakes is considered entertainment. Preferred the game before when players had more time on the ball and could be a bit more inventive.

England being the top dog in European football was never going to be good for the aesthetic side of the game if we're being honest, never been a nation to appreciate real flair. Possibly some jealousy at not being able to pull these tricks off themselves. The closest England has to a flair player these days is Grealish whose best trick is winning fouls by falling over when anybody dares to invade his personal space.
 
Pep has made football boring. Even Grealish is boring to watch now, Villa used to be worth watching just to see him.
 
Skills said:
Pretty sure Guardiola's had very little influence on the way players dribble. He's not a youth coach or hasn't been one for years. Tactically he's obviously been revolutionary.

I'd Messi has had the most profound effect on the dribbling style of players, but then again the likes of Iniesta, Isco, David Silva were around the same time as well. Maybe Michael Laudrup started this shift?
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There’s also been a shift in the profile of footballers in recent years. Advances in sport-science meant the game placed greater emphasis on athleticism and statistical output. Creativity and expression dried up as a result. To be fair, England have been guilty of this for a long time anyway.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Good point. I mean I look at Messi in the MLS and it’s just so joyful watching someone so good show off a bit again.

Can’t see myself getting behind the Saudi League though.
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Yep, seeing him light it up effortlessly is a joy, but there is a feeling of shallowness about it given we all know it's a lower level. That certainly wouldn't change with Saudi.

Something I'd be keen to know, and this is for the football historians I guess: was this joga bonito flair something that had long been about over the decades? I grew up watching football in the early 2000s and to me this was the golden age of this type of play. It was genuinely appreciated by fans and it was also a moment in which it was a peak commercial asset with all the football adverts centring it. But was it something that had quickly emerged in the late 90s, boomed, then quickly disappeared a decade later? Or has it been around a long time and it's truly becoming extinct now?
 
Ryan Cherki and Lamine Yamal are the younger players l think that have flair, I think Vini and Rodrygo are traditional flair players as well.

In the premier league I'm struggling to even think of one now Mahrez is gone, Mahrez at City was also more conservative than he was at Leicester.

Mahrez at Leicester was always a good watch:
 
OleGunnar20 said:
Agreed. Watching the likes of Ronaldinho, Okocha and young Ronaldo growing up was what it was all about. You'd be talking about it in school all the next day, trying to copy it on break etc etc.

This Pepian brand of ruthless efficiency is frankly, a barrel of shite.
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Paint by numbers football, there's very little genius or unpredictability about it.

I feel like even long range screamers are becoming rarer due to their inefficiency.
 
I think this is nostalgic hyperbole. Maybe there few less around but there are still enough around who dribble using skill moves. Vinicius, Neymar, Thiago, Pogba, Antony, Mbappe, di Maria, Mudryk, Wirtz, Boniface, ... dependingnon where you draw the line, you have a few in every league out there.

And I'm not sure it's been more 20 years ago.
 
I don't know if its "flair" exactly but this was something I was thinking about somedays ago and it feels with Messi, Iniesta and Neymar now in non-serious leagues, the age of the creative, skillful, amazing dribblers seems to be coming to an end. With the current obsession with inverted wingers cutting in and scoring and hyper efficiency, it feels like we'll see lesser and lesser of the Ronaldinho/Neymar/Messi type of naturally skillful players and more robotic but hyper productive attackers focused on goal scoring. The likes of Vinicius are obviously wonderful player but, I'm not sure how to explain it, but they just don't excite you in the way players like Messi, Neymar, and Ronaldinho did.
 
Been dead for awhile, you dont see showmanship like Ronaldinho anymore. First of all you actually need to be really good in order to pull it off, lest you come off like the Antony roulette. And most really good players are more focused on efficiency nowadays.
 
Flair in football is dead and football's current obsession with pressing, data analytics, patterns of play etc killed it. The modern game is becoming a monotonous repetitive slog where individualuality is frowned upon.
 
OleGunnar20 said:
Agreed. Watching the likes of Ronaldinho, Okocha and young Ronaldo growing up was what it was all about. You'd be talking about it in school all the next day, trying to copy it on break etc etc.

This Pepian brand of ruthless efficiency is frankly, a barrel of shite.
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The real devil is data, and data science being used to restrict the types of decisions players can make on the pitch. You can't shoot from there,it's only .01xg, turn around and pass it back to someone else and wait for the bigger xg chance.

The other problem as I see it, is that because of this flair and skill is largely being discouraged from a very early age. It's all about controlling the ball, keeping possession and playing to the system. If you don't succumb to it you are out, I'd imagine their are a lot of very skillful players out there, they just aren't allowed free reign to express themselves anymore.

You don't often enough see players commit to taking someone one and beating them with skill and pace. They'll turn back inside and play the safe pass to keep the ball, rather than risk losing it. It's very predictable and mostly quite boring.

We've seen the same shift on other sports, basketball where most of the scoring is now shots from the centre. Gaelic football is the same, boring crap now, where the ball is endlessly moved around so that the shot can be taken from right in front of the posts. Bunch of wooden gym bunny robots.

Football is not about entertainment. It's just winning and money and money and winning.

Zehner said:
I think this is nostalgic hyperbole. Maybe there few less around but there are still enough around who dribble using skill moves. Vinicius, Neymar, Thiago, Pogba, Antony, Mbappe, di Maria, Mudryk, Wirtz, Boniface, ... dependingnon where you draw the line, you have a few in every league out there.

And I'm not sure it's been more 20 years ago.
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I don't think it's just flair and dribbling though, it's the art of skill and invention and moments that you go, how the feck did he do that? And as a kid you want to go outside and try to replicate it.

20 years ago you had the likes of these guys who could entertain and produce skill flair and big moments in big games.

Bergkamp, Totti, Del Piero, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Henry, Pires, Figo, Rui Costa, Duff, Rooney, Zidane, Nedved, Beckham, Raul, Shevchenko, Eto'o, Giggs, Cristiano Ronaldo, Serginho, Ze Roberto, Zlatan, Quaresma, Overmars, Ljungberg, Seedorf, Juninho, Trezeguet, Van Nistelrooy + many more that I can't even remember right now

Now according to you you're getting:

Vinicius, Neymar, Thiago, Pogba, Antony, Mbappe, di Maria, Mudryk, Wirtz, Boniface??

You could add a few more

Salah,KDB, Rashford,Modric,Benzema,Bruno???

Not a lot of standout candidates.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
Pretty sure Spaletti started the false 9 trend with Roma and Totti. United smashed them 7-1 and it didn't look so effective anymore. Guess having Messi, Henry, Eto'o, Villa, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets made the system look a bit more effective.

Agreed though that football has become robotic and quite boring to watch in recent years. Now everything happening at a frantic pace and forcing mistakes is considered entertainment. Preferred the game before when players had more time on the ball and could be a bit more inventive.

England being the top dog in European football was never going to be good for the aesthetic side of the game if we're being honest, never been a nation to appreciate real flair. Possibly some jealousy at not being able to pull these tricks off themselves. The closest England has to a flair player these days is Grealish whose best trick is winning fouls by falling over when anybody dares to invade his personal space.
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Bellingham has more flair than Grealish?
 
OleGunnar20 said:
Agreed. Watching the likes of Ronaldinho, Okocha and young Ronaldo growing up was what it was all about. You'd be talking about it in school all the next day, trying to copy it on break etc etc.

This Pepian brand of ruthless efficiency is frankly, a barrel of shite.
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I don't think it's this, the idea of total football has been around a long time and Pep has evolved into a much less fanatical coach than someone like LVG was. It is a less risk taking style though so general enjoyment of football will decrease the more teams play in that manner - however, and this is big reason I don't think that is is the reason, who really tries to emulate or copy Pep that closely? A few teams have tried moving to an ultra possession based style but usually it is disastrous, it's not a viable strategy unless you can bankroll building what normally ends up being a whole new team. Tactical innovation that is accessible for normal teams is something like Conte's 5 at the back, Mou using the extra midfielder, Klopp and gegenpressing, it's things that don't need hundreds of millions to implement (I know these coaches did not invent these tactics but they are the ones who brought it to the PL)

The reason football has seen such a decline in flair players is because the sport is slowly becoming a gated sport at the junior level. The great myth in football today is the 0.012% stat about people who become professional footballers because the reality is, if you are not in an academy from an extremely young age, you are not going to make it and once you are in an academy you are entering a structured environment with adults telling you how football should be played. Football is a skill that can be learned and you could take the most average 5 year old from a group of 100 5 year olds, stick them in an academy and they would quickly become the best of that 100 because they would be training to a completely different level in terms of frequency and quality. Just look at the number of ex footballers kids now coming through the ranks, this will only increase as academy spots are taken up more and more. The knock on effect of this is by hoovering up children so young for academies they don't play as much on the streets and, in particular with the players we think of as great flair players, don't get exposure to futsal and other forms of smaller pitch or caged games (I think some academies try to incorporate futsal into their training but it's very different playing with your friends for fun and being encouraged to try tricks and high risk moves than in an academy where they probably want everything to be structured). You can literally name any great dribbler and it's almost inevitable the played futsal, bar Best who went one better and played with a tennis ball.
 
maniak said:
Was talking to a guy a few days ago who was convinced Riquelme wouldn't make it in a top team nowadays.
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Arguably, he didn't make it in a top team when he was actually playing!
 
Oranges038 said:
Bergkamp, Totti, Del Piero, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Henry, Pires, Figo, Rui Costa, Duff, Rooney, Zidane, Nedved, Beckham, Raul, Shevchenko, Eto'o, Giggs, Cristiano Ronaldo, Serginho, Ze Roberto, Zlatan, Quaresma, Overmars, Ljungberg, Seedorf, Juninho, Trezeguet, Van Nistelrooy + many more that I can't even remember right now
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Ok I think nostalgia is over doing it here. Many of these are brilliant skillful flair players but quite a few have the same level of skill as current players. Exclude the top 2 lines and Zidane and the rest aren't super flair legends incomparable to today's generation.
 
Skills said:
Pretty sure Guardiola's had very little influence on the way players dribble
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Guardiola has been blamed for everything from increasing baldness to the decline in long range goals

tomaldinho1 said:
the reality is, if you are not in an academy from an extremely young age, you are not going to make it and once you are in an academy you are entering a structured environment with adults telling you how football should be played
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I think this is very valid only in Europe, I don't think other parts of the world have this type of structure. I just think the value of dribbling on the football pitch has declined compared to other skills, so in academies, dribbling is de-emphasized, and outside academies, players who are great at dribbling and mediocre at other skills (physical fitness, passing, defending, tactical awareness) get ignored because they just wouldn't fit in highly optimized systems.
 
Can’t think of many… And those who come to mind aren’t nearly as entertaining as the ones we could see 20 years ago.

My favourites are Musiala (Bayern), Kvara (Napoli) and Cherki (Lyon), but there really aren’t many in the top Leagues currently.
 
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