Is 4-4-2 dead?...was Fergie right after all?

redpie

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Hmmmm........I think so.

It has taken an inordinate amount of time, a few false dawns and wrong turns along the way but I truly believe we are finally there. The promised land of continental sophistication and tactically aware play.
The players have finally come to terms with this subtley different formation and way of playing.
It may have taken a few serendipitous injuries to drive this fact home, but suddenly we are team that looks at ease with itself. Each player has a clearly defined task and they all look comfortable with it. Suddenly they all have room to play and it looks right.

The joy of Ole on the right is the change from 4-5-1 to 4-4-3 is fluid and instantaneous. I can't really see a way back into the side for Beckham at the moment. Right now Ole is pinging in crosses and working hard defensively as well as Becks ever has.
The bonus is Ole is a quicker,cleverer more attack-minded player than Becks. And he doesn't drift inside and cramp Veron's style. It's just what we have missed from the right side if we play a lone striker.
With a resurgent Giggs on the left it is a perfect combination and way of playing. Defence to attack in an instant.

Central midfield is a key area too. P. Neville has shown the way. When Keano and Butt come back I want either/or to play with the same discipline and determination in hunting down players and breaking -up play that Neville jnr. has shown. This is a key position for the system to work well. It allows the more attack-minded central pair room and confidence to work in. It's working before our very eyes with Scholes and Veron reaching a lovely understanding. Veron's new found aggression and work-rate allows Scholsey the freedom to make runs into the box. Veron sitting back a little using his full range of passing to best effect and Scholsey finding the space behind Ruud. It's a perfect partnership.

The Blanc effect on the defense is coming to fruition also. He may not play as much this season but I think his legacy will live on.
Brown and O'Shea have learned a lot from him.

My only worries are how Beckham's return might affect things and that we still lack an understudy to the Ruudmeister.

All in all we should now stick with our new formation and way of playing and be brave enough to address the Beckham issue. Home and away in every competition; it can be the way forward for United.

4-4-2 is history.
 
We'd played 4-4-2 against Newcastle and Liverpool, yet somehow 4-5-1 is taking the credit for these as well as the Arsenal game. Also Phil's been given a lot of the credit that should actually be shared with Fortune. It should also be rememembered that Veron had the 'flu' and missed the Newcastle and Liverpool games, and Scholes excelled in the midfield role in those games, with most people commenting after them that he should play there instead of up front.

Why does the last game always have to determine the whole picture, rather than being seen in the context of a season, or many seasons?
 
neil is right it was 4-4-2 at anfield. and it's a 4-2-3-1 which has three attacking players with ruud to play with along w/ veron playing deeper.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>We'd played 4-4-2 against Newcastle and Liverpool, yet somehow 4-5-1 is taking the credit for these as well as the Arsenal game. Also Phil's been given a lot of the credit that should actually be shared with Fortune. It should also be rememembered that Veron had the 'flu' and missed the Newcastle and Liverpool games, and Scholes excelled in the midfield role in those games, with most people commenting after them that he should play there instead of up front.

Why does the last game always have to determine the whole picture, rather than being seen in the context of a season, or many seasons?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It wasn't 4-4-2 against Liverpool. Forlan was definitely playing off RVN.
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Who cares what the formation is as long as we win i certainly dont
and the manager knows best
 
I don't think Blanc,Ferdinand,Keane and Becks will come back to business as long as the 4-5-1 formations still keep winning.And this is a very good chance to test how long can our Young devils hold the Man Utd's fact and keep gaining experience in every match they have play or going to play.So sit tight and wait for a good results Becks,Blanc and another 2 defenders.(Perhaps Fergie shall put Keane into the starting like coz Keane always perform excellently after injuries) :D
 
This debate has been tired out. It's not the formation but the players. Nobody can argue that

Ruud
Scholes
Giggs Phil Seba Ole

has been far more effective than

Ruud
Scholes
Giggs Seba Roy Becks

Ole is the key to this team. It's time people realise we should be building our side around Scholes and Ole, not deciding on which one we should drop to play with Ruud. If Becks was to walk in to the team it would disrupt team morale and make us a lot less fluid. Our 1st half performance was far, far more effective than the 2nd half. Same formations, different players - a lot more effective. It may be time for Becks to earn his place.
 
Fergie was always right to recognise that 4-4-2 needs to be just one of several formations we can adopt, depending on the course of a game.

I think we have been playing 4-2-3-1, with Veron and Phil in front of the defence, and Giggs, Scholes, Ole supporting Ruud.

The beauty of it is that Phil can concentrate on tackling, in the knowledge that Veron will always be nearby to sort out distribution - not Phil's greatest asset. It also provides a formation under which Scholes and Veron can flourish in the centre.

And I think Fergie has had a quiet word with players about giving the ball away. Just watch, next time you see a United player give the ball away...they run like a scalded cat to win it back. Noticed Ruud did it, even though it meant tracking back near to the edge of our own area.

Keane has also talked about playing a more defensive role, so I think we'll see a lot more of 4-2-3-1, even when the 'names' return.
 
Originally posted by mancred:
<strong>

It wasn't 4-4-2 against Liverpool. Forlan was definitely playing off RVN.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but he still was a forward and not an offensive midfielder. Scholes is helping out more in defense.

Call it 4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it doesn't really matter.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>We'd played 4-4-2 against Newcastle and Liverpool, yet somehow 4-5-1 is taking the credit for these as well as the Arsenal game. Also Phil's been given a lot of the credit that should actually be shared with Fortune. It should also be rememembered that Veron had the 'flu' and missed the Newcastle and Liverpool games, and Scholes excelled in the midfield role in those games, with most people commenting after them that he should play there instead of up front.

Why does the last game always have to determine the whole picture, rather than being seen in the context of a season, or many seasons?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good post. Memory is short and selective tho, if you like "4-5-1" you'll remember the good matches with that formation.

(Veron had jet-lag against Newcastle.)

The key I believe is that we are more flexible than we were two or three years ago. It might have cost us the league last season but in the end it has made us a better team.
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Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>
Ole is the key to this team. It's time people realise we should be building our side around Scholes and Ole, not deciding on which one we should drop to play with Ruud. If Becks was to walk in to the team it would disrupt team morale and make us a lot less fluid. Our 1st half performance was far, far more effective than the 2nd half. Same formations, different players - a lot more effective. It may be time for Becks to earn his place.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree. It's worked because we have two strikers on the pitch.You need two players with that mentality regardless of the formation.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>We'd played 4-4-2 against Newcastle and Liverpool, yet somehow 4-5-1 is taking the credit for these as well as the Arsenal game. Also Phil's been given a lot of the credit that should actually be shared with Fortune. It should also be rememembered that Veron had the 'flu' and missed the Newcastle and Liverpool games, and Scholes excelled in the midfield role in those games, with most people commenting after them that he should play there instead of up front.

Why does the last game always have to determine the whole picture, rather than being seen in the context of a season, or many seasons?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank Christ for a bit of common sense!! No other formation except for 4-4-2 has provided consistent results for us in the last decade.

The turnaround has been achieved by having consistency at the back (same 5 players. These players can defend against pace and have cut out the silly mistakes that affect confidence.

All the threads on Veron are commendable but if you take out the last 2 League games and some of the European games he still has alot to prove.

The emergence of OGS on the right has been a godsend. The big teams in England and on the continent were content on defending Beckham high up the pitch content in the knowledge he will not dribble by you or have the pace to get by you. The result was that our ability to get good crosses into the box was restricted. OGS can beat a man and his ability to get good crosses in has impressed.

All-in-all the injuries have possibly forced SAF into asking questions from certain players that would not have been asked had we not had the number of injuries.
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Question is, will Ole get back in the side as and when his injury permits.
 
We played Phil and Veron against City and they were absolute shite, some of the worst performances that either of them have ever produced, and thats saying something. If they'd played like that against Arsenal, we'd have been beaten - they didn't though, they produced their best performances, and won the midfield battle. Formation can have an effect, but not as large as key positions playing great or playing poor. If your keeper has a terrible game you lose, just ask Dudek. The Arsenal game didn't confirm 4-5-1 as the best formation, though it did confirm that fast and powerful centre backs are a good defense against fast strikers, and it did confirm that you can stop Arsenal playing their game if you press them relentlessly, and Forlan did confirm that Dudek bottles under the pressure of big games. These derby games aren't focussed on tactics - maybe European games are, but not those kind of encounters.
 
It's down to attitude as much as formation. After the loss in the "derby" United have been playing with more hunger and desire than before regardless of which formation they have used. The fancy-dan style of football is gone and United have become street fighters again, contesting every ball, winning the 50-50 challenges etc. Combine this kind of attitude with the ability in this team and United are still the best team in England.
 
The change in Man Utd season is due to the disaster in the Manchester derby. AF publicly stated that he wanted to leave the fans into the dressing room after Man City game and mentioned that he may have to totally change the team at the end of the season. I say in private he informed a couple of those players if they did'nt buckle up they were out (no more chances). I think the shock of being publicly critisised by Fergie (finally) and whatever he said in private has brought the best out of our players and instilled a team spirit which was missing.
 
You can't say that 4-4-2 is dead. You have to tailor the tactics to the opposition and the players available.
Fergie has had it spot on in the last month and they have included 4-4-2 and 4-5-1/4-4-1-1.
 
Originally posted by redpie:
<strong>Hmmmm........I think so.

4-4-2 is history.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> We beat Newcastle and Liverpool when playing 4-4-2!
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Sod formations.

What we have at the moment is players inter-changing and running around all over the pitch, whilst leaving their own positions covered.

Wonderful stuff.

It's good having Ole on the wing because he has a a striker's mentality, so we still have two strikers on the pitch, and can adapt to any formation.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Sod formations.

What we have at the moment is players inter-changing and running around all over the pitch, whilst leaving their own positions covered.

Wonderful stuff.

It's good having Ole on the wing because he has a a striker's mentality, so we still have two strikers on the pitch, and can adapt to any formation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. And for those who think Ole is sticking to his wing whereas Becks keeps drifting inside, what was OGS doing wandering about in the penalty area when Gary put that cross in on Saturday? Little bugger should stick to his wing, sod this goal scoring malarky.

:D
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