Is 3-5-2 the answer?

Frank Grimes

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‐-----‐------------------------------------Onana----------------------------------------
---------------------Lindelof--------Varane------------Martinez---------------
Dalot‐-‐------------------------------------------------------------------------Reguilon
-------------------------------Amrabat-------Casemiro-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------Bruno-------------------------------------------
---------------------------------Hojlund--------------Rashford-----------------------

With our defence being exposed by our weak midfield time and time again I feel that we need to seriously consider a formation change. I feel this system affords us the requisite protection whilst also gives our fullbacks more license to use their main strengths, which is going forward. It also means.we are less exposed by the opposition taken advantage of our forwards players lack of appetite to defend. Obviously it puts a lot of onus on our wing backs but I would like to see us give it a try.
With Antony and Sancho out for the forseeable it's not like we have much options on the rw anyway.so it might be the system that suits us best at the moment. We have to stop shipping goals. Obviously you could play Amrabat and Casemiro either as a double pivot or just leave one sitting (prob Casemiro) depending on opposition.

Overreaction or a genuine option that should be considered?
 
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Probably concede less goals but where is the goals coming from? I don't think it is a formation thing, I think it is lazy players with no chemistry.
 
Absolutely not. The problem was a complete lack of threat from the wings. We can't do a narrow formation when we have nobody capable of actually carrying the ball and covering those wide spaces.

It's just our usual 4-2-3-1 which is the solution to a non-existent problem. It was fine last season. It will be better this season with Amrabat in for Eriksen, who is a natural in the deeper area next to Casemiro and more athletic, while we'll also have Hojlund up top which is far better than any CF we had last season.
 
bosnian_red said:
Absolutely not. The problem was a complete lack of threat from the wings. We can't do a narrow formation when we have nobody capable of actually carrying the ball and covering those wide spaces.

It's just our usual 4-2-3-1 which is the solution to a non-existent problem. It was fine last season. It will be better this season with Amrabat in for Eriksen, who is a natural in the deeper area next to Casemiro and more athletic, while we'll also have Hojlund up top which is far better than any CF we had last season.
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You don't think Reguillon and Dalot can carry the ball? I think that's one of their main strengths along with decent distribution which could benefit the two forwards, especially Hojlund. Also I don't envisage them to be dribbling up the field constantly, just push up and provide width when we have possession in midfield.
 
No, for too many reasons. Having to play Maguire in many games is just one. But even if we didn't, we depend enough on counter as it is. I can't stand teams that play with a back five and counter. That isn't why we supposedly brought in ETH. He is supposed to make us play attacking football with a high press. Not 5 defenders
 
Frank Grimes said:
You don't think Reguillon and Dalot can carry the ball? I think that's one of their main strengths along with decent distribution which could benefit the two forwards, especially Hojlund. Also I don't envisage them to be dribbling up the field constantly, just push up and provide width when we have possession in midfield.
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Not well enough, but also mainly nobody through the middle. Amrabat has an ok level with it but nothing much. Formations like that, you need someone like Pogba to burst through the lines, frenkie, camavinga etc. Also the problem with the diamond in possession (along with the heaps of problems out of possession, which was mainly just so much space on the flanks and so much space to cover.

A 4-2-3-1 like this:
Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Amrabat
?? Bruno Rashford
Hojlund
​
Solves a lot of problems. The right side can be Mount, can be Pellistri, Amad, Garnacho, Bruno and putting Mount central... plenty of options. Not ideal, but it can keep a balance and there are reasons why it could work. Obviously Shaw is out for a while so Reguillon there, and Lindelof in for Varane until he's back, but generally, Amrabat next to Casemiro with a normal back 4 solves a lot of problem in the early phases of build up along with solving issues defensively. Dalot I think will be used far more than Wan Bissaka as well now that we have no proper RW, as he can provide more natural width.
 
Playing our only good three CBs at the same time is asking for trouble. Formations are not the magic bullet, we arent going to play like prime barca just because we've changed formation.

Personnel is the biggest factor to what happens on the pitch. The conclusions I have drawn from these first few games is the complete lack of mobility in the middle of the field. Casemiro categorically doesnt work as a single pivot, hes slow, rash and not particularly press resistant, three fundamentals a single pivot cant be. Him alongside Eriksen - who has a handful of good games playing deeper - is also slow, defensively poor positionally but he recycles the ball well. I'm not sure Amrabat is the answer as I haven't seen him play outside of the world cup but I'm desperate for us to try him alongside a fit Mainoo.

Hindsight is great but I was desperate to get a player of Lavia's ability in during summer. There's questions to be asked about Martinez too as he's looked a shell of his former self but he has time to regain his performances.
 
352 is the formation I hate most based on how we've looked when we've played it in the past.

It leaves the opposition full backs completely free in possession and makes it hard to get the ball off decent sides who are smart switching the play from side to side. Then you have our midfielders desperately trying to cover large distances to get out wide to cover those areas where the opposition have a free man and a potential overload, running them into the ground in the process.

It also leaves your wing backs with no support in wide positions in attack whereby they're basically asked to dribble, create and cross by themselves, when we don't have the players to do.

I'm sure some teams make it work but I very much doubt we're one of them.
 
Nope. Our problem is not tactical.

Our problem is a bunch of players incapable of following technical instructions.

3412, 352, 442, every team in EPL has shown that any formation can work do a level if every player knew what they're supposed to do. Some probably is ideal and some not very ideal. But our problem is not tactical. It's mentality.

I dont believe ETH is so clueless he got the tactics terribly wrong. He just can't sell those to his players and they do not understand or follow his ideas. A bunch of players wants to play their style of football despite the manager instructions.

I simply dont believe all manager post Fergie are incapable of understanding the basic and analysing what's wrong with the way we play. Fixing the mentality is the problem they cant solve

If magically ETH swapped position with De Zebri he'll continue the tactics and Brighton still plays well whoe de Zebri would look like a fool
 
I think, perhaps, a 5-5-5 could be the answer. With the distinct advantage of having more players on the pitch, we should be able to score occasionally.
 
Frank Grimes said:
‐-----‐------------------------------------Onana----------------------------------------
---------------------Lindelof--------Varane------------Martinez---------------
Dalot‐-‐------------------------------------------------------------------------Reguilon
-------------------------------Amrabat-------Casemiro-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------Bruno-------------------------------------------
---------------------------------Hojlund--------------Rashford-----------------------

With our defence being exposed by our weak midfield time and time again I feel that we need to seriously consider a formation change. I feel this system affords us the requisite protection whilst also gives our fullbacks more license to use their main strengths, which is going forward. It also means.we are less exposed by the opposition taken advantage of our forwards players lack of appetite to defend. Obviously it puts a lot of onus on our wing backs but I would like to see us give it a try.
With Antony and Sancho out for the forseeable it's not like we have much options on the rw anyway.so it might be the system that suits us best at the moment. We have to stop shipping goals. Obviously you could play Amrabat and Casemiro either as a double pivot or just leave one sitting (prob Casemiro) depending on opposition.Overreaction or a genuine option that should be considered?
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Yes, but EtH would never ever.
 
Our problem is not the play of CBs or defenders being done by attacking overloads, it's mostly teams dropping a 4th player into midfield and winning the battle there. Removing a midfielder and putting an extra player in the back line doesn't fix that problem, it makes it worse.
 
Frank Grimes said:
‐-----‐------------------------------------Onana----------------------------------------
---------------------Lindelof--------Varane------------Martinez---------------
Dalot‐-‐------------------------------------------------------------------------Reguilon
-------------------------------Amrabat-------Casemiro-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------Bruno-------------------------------------------
---------------------------------Hojlund--------------Rashford-----------------------

With our defence being exposed by our weak midfield time and time again I feel that we need to seriously consider a formation change. I feel this system affords us the requisite protection whilst also gives our fullbacks more license to use their main strengths, which is going forward. It also means.we are less exposed by the opposition taken advantage of our forwards players lack of appetite to defend. Obviously it puts a lot of onus on our wing backs but I would like to see us give it a try.
With Antony and Sancho out for the forseeable it's not like we have much options on the rw anyway.so it might be the system that suits us best at the moment. We have to stop shipping goals. Obviously you could play Amrabat and Casemiro either as a double pivot or just leave one sitting (prob Casemiro) depending on opposition.Overreaction or a genuine option that should be considered?
Click to expand...

So 7 defensive players and 3 attackers. Awesome
 
Not sure. If we switch to 3-5-2 we need someone to create width. AWB while good, struggles to do that, and Dalot can be very incosistent. Pellistri might work as a WB though being able to put in crosses for both Hojlund and Rashford. We also need some energy in midfield. I think Hannibal might be good in that role.


Onana
Peliistri(Dalot) - Lindelof -- Varane - Martinez - Shaw(Regulion)
Hannibal --- Casemiro
Bruno/Mount
Hojlund -- Rashford


Or we can also go for a 4-3-3 with Peliistri providing the crosses assists from the right while Rashford and Hojlund provide shooting and attacking threat from the left/center. Also Hannibal in the middle.

Onana
AWB --- Varane --- Martinez --- Shaw
Hannibal -- Casemiro
Bruno
Pellistri - Hojlund - Rashford
 
We have trouble scoring goals already. Adding another defender doesn't sound ideal.

Let's see how we look when our first XI is fit.

ETH needs to start churning out results though.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
We have trouble scoring goals already. Adding another defender doesn't sound ideal.

Let's see how we look when our first XI is fit.

ETH needs to start churning out results though.
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What is our first 11? I can imagine but honestly I dont know any more at this point
 
Don't think this system goes the way TH wants us to play.

Nervertheless, I would play this formation at Anfield against City or against any other top team, just to have a better defensive shape.

Then, we should throw the ball away and let Rashford and Hojlund run
 
Chaky_Best said:
Don't think this system goes the way TH wants us to play.

Nervertheless, I would play this formation at Anfield against City or against any other top team, just to have a better defensive shape.

Then, we should throw the ball away and let Rashford and Hojlund run
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I agree but I don't think it matters now. We're entering survival mode. We can't keep conceding so many chances every game, just somehow we need to be more secure defensively and smarter with the ball.

Don't look at me though, I don't see how we achieve this with Amrabat/Mount out and Casemiro looking terrible.

I think we should do something we know/understand, like 4231 with Pellistri/Dalot on RW at least holding width. We barely look like we know what we're doing with full squad available, let alone now. I also don't think it makes much sense to assign any tactical roles to the likes of McTominay. Let's just keep it simple for now and hopefully steady the ship a bit.
 
bosnian_red said:
Not well enough, but also mainly nobody through the middle. Amrabat has an ok level with it but nothing much. Formations like that, you need someone like Pogba to burst through the lines, frenkie, camavinga etc. Also the problem with the diamond in possession (along with the heaps of problems out of possession, which was mainly just so much space on the flanks and so much space to cover.

A 4-2-3-1 like this:
Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Amrabat
?? Bruno Rashford
Hojlund
​
Solves a lot of problems. The right side can be Mount, can be Pellistri, Amad, Garnacho, Bruno and putting Mount central... plenty of options. Not ideal, but it can keep a balance and there are reasons why it could work. Obviously Shaw is out for a while so Reguillon there, and Lindelof in for Varane until he's back, but generally, Amrabat next to Casemiro with a normal back 4 solves a lot of problem in the early phases of build up along with solving issues defensively. Dalot I think will be used far more than Wan Bissaka as well now that we have no proper RW, as he can provide more natural width.
Click to expand...

Agree with that set up. Amrabat and Casemiro would mean a massive shift in teams running through us. To get this season going we need to start from the back, and if that means playing with two solid mids in front of the defence then it's a must.
 
The defence was one of the best in the league a few months ago...the problem for a long time has been scoring goals not keeping clean sheets.

There are just not enough goal scorers/clinical finishers in the team.
 
RuudTom83 said:
The defence was one of the best in the league a few months ago...the problem for a long time has been scoring goals not keeping clean sheets.

There are just not enough goal scorers/clinical finishers in the team.
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This. Selfishness and desperation up front is not a good combination. Not that we need to walk the ball into the net but shooting from stupid angles and that sort of thing runs throughout the team from Rashford to Antony(yes missing the other day) to Bruno to Garnacho They need to sort themselves out because it's getting embarrassing.
 
r0663664 said:
Probably concede less goals but where is the goals coming from? I don't think it is a formation thing, I think it is lazy players with no chemistry.
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Agree.

Frank Grimes said:
You don't think Reguillon and Dalot can carry the ball? I think that's one of their main strengths along with decent distribution which could benefit the two forwards, especially Hojlund. Also I don't envisage them to be dribbling up the field constantly, just push up and provide width when we have possession in midfield.
Click to expand...
Thats why Reguilon was available for a late window loan, because he is great at carrying the ball for a topteam. Same with Dalot. Those players are fullbacks (average fullbacks now, good fullbacks when we're lucky), not wingbacks, pretty sure they don't have the required energylevels to do it. Adding players or taking them away isn't the only way to change a teams outlook.

bosnian_red said:
Not well enough, but also mainly nobody through the middle. Amrabat has an ok level with it but nothing much. Formations like that, you need someone like Pogba to burst through the lines, frenkie, camavinga etc. Also the problem with the diamond in possession (along with the heaps of problems out of possession, which was mainly just so much space on the flanks and so much space to cover.

A 4-2-3-1 like this:
Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Amrabat
?? Bruno Rashford
Hojlund
​
Solves a lot of problems. The right side can be Mount, can be Pellistri, Amad, Garnacho, Bruno and putting Mount central... plenty of options. Not ideal, but it can keep a balance and there are reasons why it could work. Obviously Shaw is out for a while so Reguillon there, and Lindelof in for Varane until he's back, but generally, Amrabat next to Casemiro with a normal back 4 solves a lot of problem in the early phases of build up along with solving issues defensively. Dalot I think will be used far more than Wan Bissaka as well now that we have no proper RW, as he can provide more natural width.
Click to expand...
Makes sense but would "just" be a continuation of last years football with one or two better players. If this isn't what ETH wants to play, I don't think we should abandon ship after only 4 or 5 games and a long injury list... While functional, I don't think, your lineup exudes anything in terms of x-factor or good play. I would go for it for the next 2 or 3 games but as soon as the personal is available, lets see where the other ideas bring us. Too big of a risk that this will turn out a make or break season for Ten Hag and maybe a 5th or 4th place won't be enough. I'd rather go for making a bigger step team-wise and finish 10th. We have to improve as a team - we can't be the team that recruits like a top club but looks disorganized like a pub team. We have to make a step forward.

Borys said:
I agree but I don't think it matters now. We're entering survival mode. We can't keep conceding so many chances every game, just somehow we need to be more secure defensively and smarter with the ball.

Don't look at me though, I don't see how we achieve this with Amrabat/Mount out and Casemiro looking terrible.

I think we should do something we know/understand, like 4231 with Pellistri/Dalot on RW at least holding width. We barely look like we know what we're doing with full squad available, let alone now. I also don't think it makes much sense to assign any tactical roles to the likes of McTominay. Let's just keep it simple for now and hopefully steady the ship a bit.
Click to expand...
Would be also my thoughts. For now, play something that resembles last years United, maybe with a bit more compactness and lower line to be harder to play against. Goals will come by individual brilliance or counters, it worked for 4 years, it will work another 4-6 weeks but then we have to go back to ETHs actual plan. Anything else is a waste of time only to get a CL place that won't do us anything anyway.
 
It's just madness that roughly 130 million spent on the midfield and it looks absolutely ridiculous for quality and balance on paper.
 
From watching Ajax under ETH and the wide players he had, 3-5-2 will be a no go for us under him. It’s definitely not tactical, it’s lazy players playing how they want to play. An extra defender doesn’t make sense also when we are trying to score goals, just puts more pressure on Rash/Rasmus to score. I really think he’s holding out until Mount, Shaw and Amrabat are fit. The injuries are what’s causing this as well as external factors.
 
No because that would leave our wings exposed just like this weekend with the 4-1-2-1-2.

4-2-3-1 is the best formation with the players we have.
 
NZT-One said:
Would be also my thoughts. For now, play something that resembles last years United, maybe with a bit more compactness and lower line to be harder to play against. Goals will come by individual brilliance or counters, it worked for 4 years, it will work another 4-6 weeks but then we have to go back to ETHs actual plan. Anything else is a waste of time only to get a CL place that won't do us anything anyway.
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But that should be the plan in the first place. I was very surprised to see that we went to this approach with Mount as second striker and Bruno doing... something (I didn't figure out yet what is his role in this new system). And Casemiro was left on his own in midfield. Exactly the same issues were obvious in Lens pre-season game as in Wolves game. Copy-Paste situations.

I have my doubts over Eriksen as a squad player at this point, I was of the opinion that we should've not sold Fred in this situation (McT staying is even more baffling to me), but maybe the interim solution was just to replace Eriksen with Mount playing the same role as Christian/Fred hybrid. Just run around Casemiro, provide an passing option, do the basics in midfield and once we settle down, we can try pushing him a bit higher to see how this works. Instead, we basically removed a midfielder (who was correctly identified as a weakness off the ball) and replaced him with another attacker. And just by doing that we somehow made us even more vulnerable in midfield. I think this messed us up big time in first few games, I was very disappointed with Ten Hag going for that. He is either very stubborn/convinced this is the right idea, or very very naiive. By the way, the same hapenned last year as we started with Eriksen as deep lying playmaker/connector. We quickly reverted to the classic 4231 setup what carried us through the season. That + Casemiro renaissance (that doesn't seem to be in the cards now).

Its all gone Shane Long said:
From watching Ajax under ETH and the wide players he had, 3-5-2 will be a no go for us under him. It’s definitely not tactical, it’s lazy players playing how they want to play. An extra defender doesn’t make sense also when we are trying to score goals, just puts more pressure on Rash/Rasmus to score. I really think he’s holding out until Mount, Shaw and Amrabat are fit. The injuries are what’s causing this as well as external factors.
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Number one priority is to limit opposition chances. If we can defend better, we also have more turnovers/attacking transitions which seem the best chance for us (=Rashford) to score a goal. We focused on being more "attacking" in first games and it didn't work for us at all because how poor we looked defensively.
 
Redstain said:
It's just madness that roughly 130 million spent on the midfield and it looks absolutely ridiculous for quality and balance on paper.
Click to expand...
Same could have been said about the midfields that City fielded with Rodri, Gundogan and KDB. Or from a slightly different angle Liverpool with Henderson, Fabinho and Milner. You can't just take a sub-group out of a team, especially not the midfielders who require their team mates to support them. Other teams are building box midfields as well, we aren't the only ones, until today, it didn't look too functional I agree, but how could it when half the team is injured or wasn't available for a good pre-season.
 
I wouldn't rule out the idea altogether, but at the end of the day our finishing and defending, regardless of the tactics, needs to be better.
 
You need a lot of time and work to prepare a 3 at the back deffence. A pre season and some patience after that. And hopefully some ductile players while we're at it. Even if it was the solution, there's no time to implement it.

IMO United's current squad is suited to play either a 4-1-4-1 or a classic 4-4-2, trying to keep a short distance between defenders and attackers and try to play as wide as possible in order to keep stability at the back while creating spaces for Garnacho/Rashford/Antony's run ins and some Hojlund goals from crosses and poaching.

My impression is that the 4-2-3-1, while defensively strong, encapsulates the attack a bit and relies too much on either high precission passing in thight spaces or winning 1v1 duels in order to score (and your squad is good at neither).
 
Borys said:
But that should be the plan in the first place. I was very surprised to see that we went to this approach with Mount as second striker and Bruno doing... something (I didn't figure out yet what is his role in this new system). And Casemiro was left on his own in midfield. Exactly the same issues were obvious in Lens pre-season game as in Wolves game. Copy-Paste situations.
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I confirm your observation, but you have to agree that it would be a bit shortsighted to slam a system only because it didn't seem to work well in early season. Hojlund has one outing in the starting eleven, never played with Mount. Amrabat didn't play one match. Last years football was also just a temporary solution because the first two games were catastrophic. I thought the majority would agree that this kind of football had to evolve. Thats why we brought in a proficient manager like ETH to begin with...

Borys said:
I have my doubts over Eriksen as a squad player at this point, I was of the opinion that we should've not sold Fred in this situation (McT staying is even more baffling to me), but maybe the interim solution was just to replace Eriksen with Mount playing the same role as Christian/Fred hybrid. Just run around Casemiro, provide an passing option, do the basics in midfield and once we settle down, we can try pushing him a bit higher to see how this works.
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Agree on Eriksen, always have seen him as a backup to Bruno, never as 1st teamer in central midfield. I also liked Fred but only because his energy levels balanced out the lacking energy levels across the team. I would have brought in Amrabat to replace Eriksen and keep the overall shape for a while but I can also see that ETH thinks that if he fails, he might as well fail with his actual ideas not some temporary solutions. I wasn't a fan of the Mount transfer as well but he is part of the team now and in theory, I don't see why a box midfield like Man Citys shouldn't be working for us. Granted, not just because somebody says so but with tweaks, a higher line, inverting fullbacks, yadda yadda.

Borys said:
Instead, we basically removed a midfielder (who was correctly identified as a weakness off the ball) and replaced him with another attacker. And just by doing that we somehow made us even more vulnerable in midfield. I think this messed us up big time in first few games, I was very disappointed with Ten Hag going for that. He is either very stubborn/convinced this is the right idea, or very very naiive. By the way, the same hapenned last year as we started with Eriksen as deep lying playmaker/connector. We quickly reverted to the classic 4231 setup what carried us through the season. That + Casemiro renaissance (that doesn't seem to be in the cards now).
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I think, now you're picking things to bolster your argument. Fred wasn't really part of the team last year so selling him wasn't the thing that is now "the issue" all of a sudden. My take is that ETH is trying us to play differently, move compact as a team, higher line, more pressing, quick transitions. And it makes sense, as you say: classic 4-2-3-1 with Eriksen carried us through the season without us really looking anything more than semi functional. I think, it absolutely makes sense to step away from that. We can't expect him to modernize the car while also repairing it and while having to win a race with it. I know, usually I am more on the pragmatic side of things but damning a new system that none of us really has seen in place doesn't seem to be a good idea. Knowing where we came from, a deeply disorganized team without any existing resources in terms of available pressing game or buildup, it was always going to be painful.
 
Going to 3-5-2 is one of the obvious answers, with also playing wingers that can square a ball to our new striker, on both sides.

But he won't go 3-5-2 as that means he's wrong.
 
What about the 4-2-2-2

Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Reguilon
Casemiro Amrabat
<-- Bruno Mount -->
Hojlund Rashford

If Bruno and Mount could be relied on to press in the possessional wide area when we are out of possession with the other sitting centrally.
 
NZT-One said:
I confirm your observation, but you have to agree that it would be a bit shortsighted to slam a system only because it didn't seem to work well in early season. Hojlund has one outing in the starting eleven, never played with Mount. Amrabat didn't play one match. Last years football was also just a temporary solution because the first two games were catastrophic. I thought the majority would agree that this kind of football had to evolve. Thats why we brought in a proficient manager like ETH to begin with...


Agree on Eriksen, always have seen him as a backup to Bruno, never as 1st teamer in central midfield. I also liked Fred but only because his energy levels balanced out the lacking energy levels across the team. I would have brought in Amrabat to replace Eriksen and keep the overall shape for a while but I can also see that ETH thinks that if he fails, he might as well fail with his actual ideas not some temporary solutions. I wasn't a fan of the Mount transfer as well but he is part of the team now and in theory, I don't see why a box midfield like Man Citys shouldn't be working for us. Granted, not just because somebody says so but with tweaks, a higher line, inverting fullbacks, yadda yadda.


I think, now you're picking things to bolster your argument. Fred wasn't really part of the team last year so selling him wasn't the thing that is now "the issue" all of a sudden. My take is that ETH is trying us to play differently, move compact as a team, higher line, more pressing, quick transitions. And it makes sense, as you say: classic 4-2-3-1 with Eriksen carried us through the season without us really looking anything more than semi functional. I think, it absolutely makes sense to step away from that. We can't expect him to modernize the car while also repairing it and while having to win a race with it. I know, usually I am more on the pragmatic side of things but damning a new system that none of us really has seen in place doesn't seem to be a good idea. Knowing where we came from, a deeply disorganized team without any existing resources in terms of available pressing game or buildup, it was always going to be painful.
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We actually agree on everything here, my point was (and I think you also have the same approach) you don't go from A directly to Z, you need to make small steps and progress every month rather than go for final solution, especially if only you see it (while players look clueless).

On the bolded part - IMO this system looked completely off in preseason so I was not that surprised watching first season games. Plenty of people raised this point by the way. It wasn't about the sync, it looked completely off balance. Casemiro form was probably a factor, but manager's role is to see that and adjust accordingly. ETH hang him out to dry there.

Regarding Fred, I keep saying this, but we peaked with him playing against Barca and in Cup final last season. Eriksen was not available then. And you explained this very nicely, he added the energy that others were lacking - hence this was our most balanced team out there, a team that actually caused a lot of turnovers and pressed better high up the pitch. He also got good numbers for a squad player, which he was. By the way, lack of Fred isn't a big problem if we have Amrabat and Mount available, so I wouldn't make it bigger than it is. I do think he was way more valuable player for us than McTominay, who we apparently could sell for twice bigger fee. Our transfer moves make no sense at times.

About this "damning a new system that none of us really has seen in place". Well, as I mentioned before, there might be few roads that lead to the same place that is "the new system". One option is to make gradual changes, make players adjust to it on each phase etc. Another is to just pull the switch and see how it goes. We went for the second option, and we looked terribly in those games. Part of that might be down to players, part will be down to tactics and balance of the team. The question is if we're going to tolerate those bad performances& AND results because we want to give it time. I don't think we will be in that place that we can go for long like that. We need to find a way so go step by step, even if this means at the beginning we take a bit more pragmatic approach.

The only point I disagree on is "team without any existing resources in terms of available pressing game or buildup, it was always going to be painful". We have some proper individual players in this team, levels above what Ole had at his disposal, especially from GK to midfield. I will never accept that you can't play good buildup with the current squad. This is simply down to manager/coaching staff if we can't progress the ball effectively forward. I think Brighton game shown us how it's done.
 
RuudTom83 said:
The defence was one of the best in the league a few months ago...the problem for a long time has been scoring goals not keeping clean sheets.

There are just not enough goal scorers/clinical finishers in the team.
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Another lie being peddled in this forum.

Last season we conceded 43 goals.

3 less than Brentford (46), Aston Villa (46),
4 less than Chelsea (47). A disaster of a season for Chelsea.
4 less than Liverpool (47). One of the poorest Liverpool season is some period.

Since Fergie Retired, the data is as follows.

Goal Conceded per season from Highest (worst record)

2022/23 - 43 - ETH - - - - - - - - - - - - 4th
2021/22 - 57 - Ole + Ralf - - - - - - - 1st
2020/21 - 44 - Ole - - - - - - - - - - - - - 3rd
2019/20 - 36 - Ole - - - - - - - - - - - - - 7th
2018/19 - 54 - Mou + Ole - - - - - - - - 2nd
2017/18 - 28 - Mou - - - - - - - - - - - -10th
2016/17 - 29 - Mou - - - - - - - - - - - - 9th
2015/16 - 35 - LvG - - - - - - - - - - - - - 8th
2014/15 - 37 - LvG - - - - - - - - - - - - - -6th
2013/14 - 43 - Moyes+Giggsy - - - - 4th


So if you look at it from face value

1. ETH last season was same numbers as Moyes numbers.

2. We have conceded over 40+ goals in 5 of the last 10 seasons.

3. Of the 5 season with over 40+ goals, 3 times (more than half) was when we had a managerial change mid season.

4. In ranking last season was 4th worst season in over 30 years of United as a premier league team in terms of conceding goals.

5. Most crucial point :::::: Since 2019,we've had the 1st, 2nd ,3rd , 4th, worst record in the 10 year period. It shows you since we started playing counter, transition football, our goal conceded numbers have gone up. I don't want to put it on one player but you can see with your naked eye what, who, why we leak goals since 2019 yet we've changed managers, defenders, GK.



As of today, 18th September, 2023.
After 5 games we have conceded 10 goals. With 33 more games to go. You can guess which direction that tally will go.

ETH needs to change the structure of the team, how we setup and how we play. It's very visible from naked eye our midfield is the issue. We need a midfield which can control a football. Spending time chasing a game will tire you, and eventually you will collapse.

That's why we will remain a 20 minutes / first half team.

I can't understand how people can't see this. It's visible but seems we have tinted glasses
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Another lie being peddled in this forum.
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A lot of waffle and irrelevance but you're not actually disproving his point. He said we were one of the best in the league. Only City and Newcastle conceded less and we were joint with Arsenal. So he wasn't wrong. Our problem last season wasn't goals conceded, it was the goals we didn't score.

You essentially proved yourself how your post is pointless without context

"ETH last season was same numbers as Moyes numbers."

And yet the season couldn't have been more different.
 
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The problem with that formation is there is definitely no place in it for Mount or Antony, probably the two main ETH footprint signings. I also wouldn't trust Dalot as a wingback, at all...and not sure it suits Bissaka that much better. I definitely wouldn't trust Lindelof in a back 3...you can put Shaw there but then you lose him from the wing back role.

I wouldn't say it definitely wouldn't work but it leaves as many questions as answer. Also the players would have to be very well drilled tactically so one of the centrebacks knows when to step into midfield, forwards and wing backs know when to move out and inside, etc. We still can't manage something as simple as pressing as a unit for more than 15 minutes.

Also it would be easier to decipher if the formation was a problem if we didn't keep doing weird stuff in games, like playing Mount as a CM, deliberately spending an entire half refusing to pass out of our own third, forgetting the last 5 metres of either side of the pitch existed whenever Brighton had the ball, etc. Really hard to pin a formation down as the answer or the problem when we keep doing stuff that there is no formation for because its just a terrible idea.
 
Borys said:
We actually agree on everything here, my point was (and I think you also have the same approach) you don't go from A directly to Z, you need to make small steps and progress every month rather than go for final solution, especially if only you see it (while players look clueless).
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I agree completely. As I said, I probably would have brought in Amrabat first thing on July 1st to upgrade on Eriksen more or less like for like. I really wonder if ETH did it because he thinks his time is running out...

Borys said:
On the bolded part - IMO this system looked completely off in preseason so I was not that surprised watching first season games. Plenty of people raised this point by the way. It wasn't about the sync, it looked completely off balance. Casemiro form was probably a factor, but manager's role is to see that and adjust accordingly. ETH hang him out to dry there.
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I agree and noticed that as well. But pre-season is always difficult to judge due to fitness and missing team members. I fully agree though that the issues from those games have been transported to Wolves game. Casemiro looks a bit shit these days but my god in what is our setup he'd probably look shit even in his prime. Thing is, I think this actually is one of the harder things to improve a team on, just like Bruno and Mount have to know when not to push up, the defense and Casemiro also have to learn when to push up. When that happens, it should also close the gaps to a degree.

Borys said:
Regarding Fred, I keep saying this, but we peaked with him playing against Barca and in Cup final last season. Eriksen was not available then. And you explained this very nicely, he added the energy that others were lacking - hence this was our most balanced team out there, a team that actually caused a lot of turnovers and pressed better high up the pitch. He also got good numbers for a squad player, which he was. By the way, lack of Fred isn't a big problem if we have Amrabat and Mount available, so I wouldn't make it bigger than it is. I do think he was way more valuable player for us than McTominay, who we apparently could sell for twice bigger fee. Our transfer moves make no sense at times.
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100%.

Borys said:
About this "damning a new system that none of us really has seen in place". Well, as I mentioned before, there might be few roads that lead to the same place that is "the new system". One option is to make gradual changes, make players adjust to it on each phase etc. Another is to just pull the switch and see how it goes. We went for the second option, and we looked terribly in those games. Part of that might be down to players, part will be down to tactics and balance of the team. The question is if we're going to tolerate those bad performances& AND results because we want to give it time. I don't think we will be in that place that we can go for long like that. We need to find a way so go step by step, even if this means at the beginning we take a bit more pragmatic approach.
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True. It certainly is a dilemma I wouldn't want to be in. I think, going with a diamond is a sign that ETH isn't overly stubborn but yeah, lets see how things will develop once everybody is back.

Borys said:
The only point I disagree on is "team without any existing resources in terms of available pressing game or buildup, it was always going to be painful". We have some proper individual players in this team, levels above what Ole had at his disposal, especially from GK to midfield. I will never accept that you can't play good buildup with the current squad. This is simply down to manager/coaching staff if we can't progress the ball effectively forward. I think Brighton game shown us how it's done.
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I can see your point, but Brighton also is doing it for quite some time. De Zerbi didn't have to start at zero. Our objective is to move from a "defend rather deep and make use of quick transitions aka Bruno longball to Rashford" to something more organized. I want to say there was a difference last year in terms of building from the back, we certainly didn't look as scared as we did before, the hastiness and cluelessness mostly started when trying to do something in the middle third. I had hoped that ETH would make use of the preseason to now adress that area of the pitch and who knows, maybe he did. I don't want to shield him though, I also hoped his effects would be a bit more striking. On the other hand, thinking at Ronaldo, Greenwood, now Sancho and Antony, feels like fate is doing all it can to distract the manager...
 
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