Irish Politics

RedC said:
I wouldn't say that's necessarily fair, the main opposition party being SF is probably a pretty big road block. Maybe they aren't particularly happy with the status, but don't believe in the main alternative?
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You would say that Fine Gael boy.
 
Gee Male said:
I'm not a member of any political party, I agree that the need for change is obvious, I just don't see SF as credible at all. I voted SD, Green, Independent. Green got included only due to long term anxiety that my kids will burn.

The bottom line is that our choices are shite. I don't really subscribe to left/right ideology as I think different issues need different solutions. If we could get the best 15 politicians to just run the place regardless of party, we would be miles better off.
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To note vote for Sinn Fein because they are not credible and vote for the Social Democrats or Greens makes zero sense. They fail even worse if you hold them to the same standards. That's just a token vote for anyone who really wants change.

Some of the best politicians are in SF and PBP in my opinion.
 
SER19 said:
Sorry to both of you - I shouldnt have posted in current events, its something I actively try to avoid and want to keep football and engagement with it as a sporting outlet, so I'm not going to stay in Current Events any longer - that's not a reflection on either poster, I just shouldnt have entered at all.

My best summation on points here, this being my opinion only:

Media- A huge percentage of the electorate seem to believe the media is biased against them. All the further-right lunatics think RTE is some sort of extreme left flag waving cess pit. And then the further left seem to see it as some sort of cynical men in suits brigade. There is huge amounts of confirmation bias involved, you need only see peoples thoughts during a TV debate - Sinn Fein supporters actively believing moderators are being harder and interrupting Mary Lou, non sinn-feiners believing the exact opposite. In a 100 year history, Im sure the 2 largest parties are in some way better connected, but I really do think one has to be living in a world of real confirmation bias to think there is any notable, active bias. It is in danger of becoming active delusion, where we all end up like the far-right, shouting about paedophiles in a Dail basement.

Sinn Fein 'collapse' - this word seems to have irritated. At almost any point in the course of the last Dail, had the election been held, Sinn Fein wouldnt just have been the 'biggest party' (0.5% lead in an exit poll), they would have comfortably been the biggest party. Their polling numbers at one point not long ago were huge. And in that time, the government has hardly rallied - you each point out enormous failures. If we're not going to turn around and say that there has been an enormous lost opportunity for Sinn Fein, then thats where we're actually being disingenous. How they have managed to go from such resounding polling, against the likes of McEntee and some of the most unpopular individuals to occupy high positions, and still not be close to forming a government, needs to be looked at. My own opinion is that they sacrificed their opportunity in the name of one, single issue. A final point on the 'largest party' thing. On the one hand Sinn Fein seem to want to say that FFFG are just an interchangable cosy cabal - if that's the case, then this FFFG single party is by far and away the largest party. Sinn Fein cant just lump them together as one when its convenient, then split them when it comes to polls. The sitting government has likely got about 44% of first preference votes.

The Left - Ireland is a left wing country. To look at things that have occurred under current government, and come to any conclusion other than them being left wing would be bizarre. We are generally a progressive country, and the 2 largest parties hold left or left-leaning stances on almost every issue. What you seem to want (or some people rather than you specifically) is a more-left government. Okay, that's a fair desire. So then we turn and look at who is there. Sinn Fein - getting a sizable number of votes. And who? Boyd Barrett? Paul Murphy? Bacik and Labour? What the further left never seems to recognise is that they live in an echo chamber as much as they far right lunatics do. Go to most of rural Ireland and it doesn't take long to see how hopelessly out of touch the alternative left are. For the overwhelming majority of this country, these characters are just as unvotable as the right wing nuts. But the left never seem to want to engage with this idea - they seem to project that they know best and if only the stupid electorate would give them a chance they'd prove them right. There is a delusion among the alternative left about what's important to people, and I don't expect they will ever ever have the humility to take stock of why they are unpopular.

Lastly on the left - one success has been the seemingly good return from SD. But like the Greens, I suspect that should Cairns see it as a chance to implement any bit of influence, rather than stay on the sidelines, they will be committing political suicide by forming a government with FFFG, because deep down the alternative left are professional, masters of victimhood. They sustain themselves on the idea of being oppressed and would rather stay there, cheering on Boyd Barrets deranged howling, than see incremental growth. The reason FFFG are still comfrtable despite underperforming, is because the left will continue to eat itself.

In any case, that really is just the opinion of one fool on the internet. Should we be in a social setting or pub, Id happily get into it all and I bet we actually agree on about 95% of things. But as I said, Im going to tap out of current events, Ive written this as I didnt want to be dismissive of your posts.
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That reads like a FFFG party political broadcast. I think you are very wrong about the power of the media and the idea that our basically neoliberal government are left wing while leaving housing and increasingly health to the private sector. As if they have nothing to do with the inevitable happening around them. If they are not complicit then they are unable to lead and govern and either way need to be out the door.
 
moses said:
You'll live with it until a government is formed. If FG get in you'll aplogise, I'll change it and we'll all move on.
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If it's any consolation the FG lad was never not getting in in my constituency.
 
Massive Spanner said:
No you’re just not allowed complain now.
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Harsh, he's that great Irish philosophy quote incarnate.

I complain therefore I am.

It's murder to stop his life force.

Although he apparently doesn't mind people being tied to chairs and shot so he could vote and drink (and occasionally make) kombucha.
 
moses said:
To note vote for Sinn Fein because they are not credible and vote for the Social Democrats or Greens makes zero sense. They fail even worse if you hold them to the same standards. That's just a token vote for anyone who really wants change.

Some of the best politicians are in SF and PBP in my opinion.
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Fair point in first paragraph. In second - maybe, but can substitute any party into that sentence, each do have a few useful people. The pool in SF and PBP is shallow though, and falls off a cliff.
 
moses said:
That's a fundamental error though and a massively incorrect starting point.
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How fundamental it is depends on how you look at it. Most parties are either left or right in each particular issue, few are consistently left or right across all issues. The left/right labels seem less relevant in Ireland.
 
Gee Male said:
Fair point in first paragraph. In second - maybe, but can substitute any party into that sentence, each do have a few useful people. The pool in SF and PBP is shallow though, and falls off a cliff.
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Defo, but I do think at least 2 of the PBP lot are among the smartest people out there. Nether in my constituency though.

So all done, now it's just fingers crossed that some of the worst ones are kept out locally!
 
Gee Male said:
How fundamental it is depends on how you look at it. Most parties are either left or right in each particular issue, few are consistently left or right across all issues. The left/right labels seem less relevant in Ireland.
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No, I think we are structurally a social welfare state, and that might be where the confusion lies, but the two main parties, which are centre-right at best, are slowly dismantling it.
 
Massive Spanner said:
https://www.rte.ie/news/election-24/2024/1130/1483883-exit-poll-taoiseach-preference/

No surprises that people < 40 mostly want Sinn Fein and to be rid of FFG. Yet again we’ll be fecked over by old people with their big houses who are happy to keep voting for their same pals over and over.
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Not sure that’s on the money. I mean this country has always been vote for FF or FG, decade after decade. All other parties know this. It’s up to the others to find a way to bridge that divide. It’s clear that they haven’t really found that route yet.

In the specific case of SF, older people will remember the past whereas the younger voter is unlikely to know as much and is prepared to move on. Again, SF need to find a way yo connect with the older voters. In my personal opinion, Mary Lou should step aside. She’s still the face of the past.
 
RedC said:
What's your opinion on voting for individual's based on local actions vs. the party actions, selfish?
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That’s what I did for some of them. It’s how I cast my first ever vote for SF (eugh) because I respect the work that Paul Donnelly does for local people and groups.
 
RedC said:
What's your opinion on voting for individual's based on local actions vs. the party actions, selfish?
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No, if there is no appetite for broader change then the common sense thing to do is vote for someone who makes a positive difference locally.
Parish pump politics are real and arguably essential. I'd have a restructure with much more local stuff within the remit of the local councils. While it's great for a TD to be acting locally it's not how the national representatives should be spending their time in my opinion. Slightly fewer TDs, more and more empowered local reps,
 
golden_blunder said:
That’s what I did for some of them. It’s how I cast my first ever vote for SF (eugh) because I respect the work that Paul Donnelly does for local people and groups.
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Yeah my 2 were basically people from my town that do loads in the town and first preference was the person whose policies I agreed with most.
 
golden_blunder said:
Not sure that’s on the money. I mean this country has always been vote for FF or FG, decade after decade. All other parties know this. It’s up to the others to find a way to bridge that divide. It’s clear that they haven’t really found that route yet.

In the specific case of SF, older people will remember the past whereas the younger voter is unlikely to know as much and is prepared to move on. Again, SF need to find a way yo connect with the older voters. In my personal opinion, Mary Lou should step aside. She’s still the face of the past.
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People are terrified of change GB, it only ever happens very very slowly by ballot, and perhaps that's not such a bad thing.

SF are also hindered by their past rightly or wrongly, (they did very important work as part of that link to violence and horror) and are possibly a few elections and leaders away from being judged by their past.

Again for clarity I had no time for them until 95, despite the good things they did in the community, was never a supporter of the armed struggle in my youth, but they put the guns down like FF and FG did in 1919, and in fairness to all of them, they as yet haven't picked them up and that is not the historical norm. Many countries continue the violence in a loop.
 
golden_blunder said:
I respect a few of their new wave of politicians, your man that wrote the housing bits is very capable.

However I still wouldn’t trust ML as far as I could throw her
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I think we see now, that despite something cataclysmic happening we won't see Mary Lou as Taoiseach.
 
The Monk is likely to get a seat over the Green Party. Haha.

Poling ahead of the government candidates. Perfect. Just slightly less criminal than those candidates.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Yep, as usual passionate old people who are happy with the status who have turned up to the polls and young people who want change haven’t bothered. Turnout is so low.
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As a lefty this is the prevailing wind. Unless there is extreme poverty or death then the protest is weak, but the conservatism is strong.

I read a great quote once in a discussion calling for class war among the anti industrialists in early 20th Century US , "There already is a class war but only one side is fighting it, and it's not us"
 
golden_blunder said:
People would rather be represented by a known gangster than someone who cares about the environment that they live in
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He's a gangster. FFG are state gangsters. Aye, the GP isn't that bad but I'd take a small time crook over FFG. Just as a farcical "the people think this man is less criminal than the government". A weridly excellent protest vote imo.
 
neverdie said:
He's a gangster. FFG are state gangsters. Aye, the GP isn't that bad but I'd take a small time crook over FFG. Just as a farcical "the people think this man is less criminal than the government". A weridly excellent protest vote imo.
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Small time crook!?

Can’t believe that you said that
 
moses said:
I may no longer be a communist. feck the working classes. Idiotic fools don't deserve to be saved. I'm voting FG next time.
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His campaign speeches were weirdly Marxist. All about the economic depression of his area and how normal people cannot afford housing (gentrification).
 
moses said:
No, if there is no appetite for broader change then the common sense thing to do is vote for someone who makes a positive difference locally.
Parish pump politics are real and arguably essential. I'd have a restructure with much more local stuff within the remit of the local councils. While it's great for a TD to be acting locally it's not how the national representatives should be spending their time in my opinion. Slightly fewer TDs, more and more empowered local reps,
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I do think this is incredibly relevant in Ireland and something many people forget when looking at politics in this country.

While there may be appetite for change on a national level, the bases of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are still incredibly strong throughout most of Ireland.

In my constituency, FF and FG ran long established councillors who the people know, who are active in the community, who help with local projects. Like it or not, they turn up at funerals, they turn up at the opening of playgrounds/schools/community centres that they’ve advocated for. Essentially, they’ve made a direct difference to local people’s lives.

SF ran a candidate who has been a councillor since earlier this year who was not involved in the local area prior to that. PBP- Solidarity ran a candidate that I, and anyone I’ve spoken to had never heard of, same with Aontu.

Then there’s a couple of independents, one of whom does incredible work in the locality and will definitely get in.

So if you take that constituency as an example, you have a FF candidate who will definitely take a seat, not because everyone loves Micheál Martin, but because they are a well known councillor who people know and have had positive interactions with.

Maybe that’s a problem with our system, but when people say, “I can’t believe people are still voting FF or FG,” you have to look at the options available to them in their constituency. People in my constituency don’t get to vote for Mary Lou. Their SF option is a relative unknown who has no track record of being a good representative. Their PBP option isn’t Richard Boyd Barrett, it’s an actual unknown with zero record of public service in the area. Soc Dems didn’t run a candidate.

Until those parties are active on the ground in rural Ireland, they can’t expect to just pick up seats because Mary-Lou or Richard Boyd Barrett come across well on prime time.
 
neverdie said:
His campaign speeches were weirdly Marxist. All about the economic depression of his area and how normal people cannot afford housing (gentrification).
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Everyone says that, there's a bit more to Marxism than pointing out what's wrong. He's a fecking scumbag. Don'tt listen to scumbags, no matter what they are saying,
 
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